"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...


People with 7000 sea miles of experience scare you? I guess you are
easily frightened. I am all for knowing the proper techniques for
various situations, but for a cruiser what is the real advantage of an
instructor over a well written book once you have learned basics of
sail trim, docking, and helmsmanship?

Andy

Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person
on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without
injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However,
books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do.

DP

d parker wrote:

Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person
on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without
injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However,
books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do.

Why would I need a person on board to tell me if I was making a
mistake? In my experience real mistakes lead to real consequences that
are pretty obvious. If the only way to detect a mistake is by having
an instructor on board then I would suggest that maybe its not a very
important mistake. Please give me an example of a mistake that:

(1) presents a significant safety risk,
(2) would not be obvious to someone who has carefully read the books
I listed in my other post,
(3) would escape detection without a qualfied instructor, i.e. the
mistake doesn't cause any consequences that would alert an ordinary
person to the fact that something is going wrong.

I would be very interested to see just one example of such a mistake.

Here is an example of a very serious mistake that I doubt is covered in
any course, but which I was aware of from reading books. There is a
certain type of anchor swivel which, if connected directly to the
anchor can fail if there is a strong pull on the rode from
perpendicular to the anchor. You can see the swivel I am talking about
he http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/new...fm?id=SD181206

To use this swivel safely you have to put a shackle on the anchor,
attach the swivel to that, and then attach the chain to the other end
of the swivel. I learned this from one of the books I read, and it was
a good thing since the previous owner of my boat had the anchor rigged
with one of these swivels mounted directly on the anchor. When I was
in Costa Rica I met a woman who lost an anchor in a very rolly and
rocky anchorage because she had one of these swivels incorrectly
mounted. Lucky for her the swivel didn't break until it came time to
raise anchor and she brought up a chain with only a snapped swivel on
the end.

My point with this example is that I doubt something this obscure would
be covered in any standard course, but someone who read a lot of books
would be aware of this issue.

Andy

Andy wrote:


Here is an example of a very serious mistake that I doubt is covered in
any course, but which I was aware of from reading books. There is a
certain type of anchor swivel which, if connected directly to the
anchor can fail if there is a strong pull on the rode from
perpendicular to the anchor. You can see the swivel I am talking about
he http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/new...fm?id=SD181206

To use this swivel safely you have to put a shackle on the anchor,
attach the swivel to that, and then attach the chain to the other end
of the swivel. I learned this from one of the books I read, and it was
a good thing since the previous owner of my boat had the anchor rigged
with one of these swivels mounted directly on the anchor. When I was
in Costa Rica I met a woman who lost an anchor in a very rolly and
rocky anchorage because she had one of these swivels incorrectly
mounted. Lucky for her the swivel didn't break until it came time to
raise anchor and she brought up a chain with only a snapped swivel on
the end.

My point with this example is that I doubt something this obscure would
be covered in any standard course, but someone who read a lot of books
would be aware of this issue.

Andy

That sort of problem is most certainly covered and that example used.

I think that learning from books is certainly one way to learn anything.
However, time has proven that most skills need an element of practice
and that instructors are valuable help. No doubt you have learned a
great deal and have safely conducted yourself from port to port with the
knowledge gained. It may have been easier to learn, more fun, and more
complete if combined with an instructor and other interested folks.

Gaz

In article
,
"d parker" wrote:

Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person
on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without
injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However,
books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do.

DP

Truth be told, as with any practical knowledge, we only really learn
from experience. Some of us can get the clues from books; some need
personalized instruction; others need to be shown, but it's the *doing*
that does the trick.

Having an instructor at your elbow is not the same as being totally
responsible and having to remember everything at once. Sometimes, the
student (such as my wife) only gains the confidence in their skills when
the instructor (me) isn't there. [Every once in a while, I'll "fall
asleep" on a long leg. We always get "there".]

Strangest story: Had a friend go out for his first sailboat trip with us
and I gave him the basics of sail trim and eyeball navigation that
afternoon. He was enthusiastic, so he handled the boat most of the day.
Next we heard, he'd bought an old sloop and successfully gotten it down
to Florida. He learned quite a bit along the way, including becoming a
pretty fair sailor. Biggest lesson, though, was to NOT move unless he
felt ready for the conditions. He got "stretched" a couple of times and
did the stupid things we all do, but I don't think was ever in actual
danger. [Told him I thought *starting* the trip was a stupid idea, and
he agreed, but he had FUN.]

We have had crew onboard that had done all the courses and had all the
certifications. Would rather have dinghy sailors, and usually soon feel
comfortable going below with them at the helm. Even complete neophytes
sometimes were better than all of the the "accredited" "sailors" I've
met.

But that's not a condemnation of courses, or an absolute approval of any
particular method. Everyone learns differently. Some will never learn;
others merely need a suggestion.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/