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  #31   Report Post  
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Gary
 
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Andy wrote:
Jack Dale wrote:

On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy"
wrote:



Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned


from books?


Docking under power and sail



I mentioned earlier in this thread that docking is one of the things I
think is best learned from an instructor.


MOB (upwind and downwind) and under power



The basic principles of MOB are easily learned from a book and then you
can practice on your own by throwing a cushion over and getting it back
over and over. A live instructor is not necessary.


Reefing



Easy to learn from a book and practice on your own. I think my
instructor showed us once, the seller of our boat showed us once at the
dock how he had things rigged up, we read up on it, and then we
practiced a few times.


Gennaker and spinnaker handling and trim



You don't need a gennaker or a spinnaker to cruise. I figured out how
to use the cruising spinnaker that came with my boat from a 5 minute
explanation from the seller and some reading.


Anchoring with two anchors



Pretty straightforward to learn from a book.


Anchoring stern-to shore / dock



Ditto.


Practical application of Colregs



Easy to learn from a book.


Getting meaningful weather forecasts



I learned this from reading books and info on the internet.


Being able to read clouds, wind directions and barometers to do your
own forecasting



This is covered well in books.


Passage planning



Covered well in books.


The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.


Eventually you will want to learn sail trim to go faster as well as
save wear and tear on your sails.



I learned the finer points of sail trim from books and experimenting.
No particular reason to pay an instructor other than to teach you the
basic principles.


Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.


I would suggest that navigation is not that straightforward. I teach
both traditional navigation and elctronic navigation (but not
celestial). Our courses run 8 to 10 weeks in length.



I don't see any advantage to learning navigation from a teacher as
compared to learning from a book.

I think an instructor is very useful for learning basic helmsmanship,
sail trim, rules of the road, and docking, say 15 to 24 hours worth of
time on the water. After that it is possible for an intelligent and
motivated person to teach themselves from books.

Andy

Funny, most books advise a course. You didn't learn that.

Gaz
  #32   Report Post  
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Gary
 
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Andy wrote:


Here is an example of a very serious mistake that I doubt is covered in
any course, but which I was aware of from reading books. There is a
certain type of anchor swivel which, if connected directly to the
anchor can fail if there is a strong pull on the rode from
perpendicular to the anchor. You can see the swivel I am talking about
he http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/new...fm?id=SD181206

To use this swivel safely you have to put a shackle on the anchor,
attach the swivel to that, and then attach the chain to the other end
of the swivel. I learned this from one of the books I read, and it was
a good thing since the previous owner of my boat had the anchor rigged
with one of these swivels mounted directly on the anchor. When I was
in Costa Rica I met a woman who lost an anchor in a very rolly and
rocky anchorage because she had one of these swivels incorrectly
mounted. Lucky for her the swivel didn't break until it came time to
raise anchor and she brought up a chain with only a snapped swivel on
the end.

My point with this example is that I doubt something this obscure would
be covered in any standard course, but someone who read a lot of books
would be aware of this issue.

Andy

That sort of problem is most certainly covered and that example used.

I think that learning from books is certainly one way to learn anything.
However, time has proven that most skills need an element of practice
and that instructors are valuable help. No doubt you have learned a
great deal and have safely conducted yourself from port to port with the
knowledge gained. It may have been easier to learn, more fun, and more
complete if combined with an instructor and other interested folks.

Gaz
  #33   Report Post  
posted to rec.boats.cruising
d parker
 
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"Gary" wrote in message
news:u6ltf.102873$2k.49337@pd7tw1no...

snip

I don't see any advantage to learning navigation from a teacher as
compared to learning from a book.

I think an instructor is very useful for learning basic helmsmanship,
sail trim, rules of the road, and docking, say 15 to 24 hours worth of
time on the water. After that it is possible for an intelligent and
motivated person to teach themselves from books.

Andy

Funny, most books advise a course. You didn't learn that.

Gaz


That's funny!

DP


  #34   Report Post  
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Jere Lull
 
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In article ,
Commodore Joe Redcloud wrote:

The major differences between trying to learn from books and having
an instructor, are that with an instructor, you will learn much
faster,


Some people learn "faster" from books, particularly since that can be
done at home -- off the water. In my case, the transition from reading
to doing has always often been short.

and when you don't understand something after reading everything
about it in the book, an instructor can use additional information,
and even demonstration to explain it to you in a way that you can
understand it.


Full agreement.

But if the instructor has to give the full background that some can pull
from a book, that's wasted lesson time.

Reading, talking and doing should be mixed in a balance tailored to the
individual students. The original poster and I can do fairly well with a
stronger bias towards study than some.


--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/
  #35   Report Post  
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Jim Cate
 
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One thing to consider is whether the particular sailing school you
choose is generally known and accredited, and whether their certificates
of class completion are generally accepted by other schools, charter
companies, etc. For example, I think that the classes from American
Sailing School, and Annapolis Sailing Schools, etc., include training in
a number of prescribed subjects, with OTW (on the water) and classroom
work on each, followed by OTW and written exams. Thus, if you pass the
tests, you (and others) have some assurance that you learned the basics
of sailing that you were supposed to learn. Also, they offer a
progressive series of courses, beginning with an introductory sailing
course (basics of sailing, points of sail, man overboard, rules of the
road, boat nomenclature, etc.) followed by more advanced courses,
progressing to a course providing a certificate stating that you are
qualified to charter larger boats, etc. - The point is that you might
want to start with a training school that will provide graduation
letters or certificates that will be accepted for the more advanced
courses that you may want to take later on. - (Sort of like taking the
appropriate prerequisites in college for the more advanced second and
third-year courses.) Otherwise, you might have to repeat the training
of a local, non-recogized "school." Of course, if you just want to take
an introductory weekend course at a nominal cost, you won't loose much
and will be on your way.

Jim


wrote:

Hi,

I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
however.

The sailing club (
http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of
22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is
not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being
the skipper.

The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours
of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once
you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own.

What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than
the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision
afterwards is required.

Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too
lax, or am I missing something?

Thanks for any input!






  #36   Report Post  
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Rich Hampel
 
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Any method that give you the most "TIME ON THE WATER" will be the
fastest route towards 'mastery' of sailing.

There is NO SUBSTITUE to "DOING IT", not books, not schools, not marina
residents nor newsgroup denizens. Nothing builds sailing skills faster
than simply doing it. As regards the 'size' of the boat the smallest
sailing dinghy will teach 'you' faster because of its relative
instability, the immediate feedback from the boat when something is
'wrong'/right, etc. A larger boat is erroneously easier to sail
because EVERYTHING that happens is much s-l-o-w-e-r to happen and many
of the actions/reaction are 'dampened' by the large mass of the boat.
Get copies of "Chapmans", Annapolis School of Seamanship", etc. read
them over and over then get out on the water in anything you can
afford, borrow, etc.

Want to learn sailing quickly: buy a cheap re-saleable daysailing
dinghy, beat the hell out of it (and yourself) while you are learning
and looking for the 'next' (larger) boat, sell the dinghy for a profit
and move up, etc. until you arrive at your 'plateau' then think about a
'school', etc. Make a plan and follow it. What ever you do dont
assume that a BIG boat is the place to start as a big boat will take
all the skills you learned in small tippy dinghies .... plus some. It
will take YEARS to learn how to sail on a big boat ... only a season or
two on a 'little' boat - and those skills can be used on a big boat
(not always vice versa). Take one 'bite' at a time. Look at or
compare becoming a pilot in general aviation (small) aircraft: no one
starts flying in a 747 jumbo jet as their 'entry' to that sport. They
usuallly start in the smaller 'sport' planes and then move up. How
rapid the 'move up' depends on how much *time* you spend on the water.

If you want to accelerate your 'training' beside the above, go down to
the local 'racing fleet' on a Wednesday night and see if someone needs
extra 'crew' ... they usually do. Tell them your sailing experience
and see if you can fit their needs .... the (free) training on a
racecourse as crew will be astronomical. When the race is over/won,
then start to ask your questions of the crew ... good sailors will
share their knowledge openly and freely. When you get home open one of
the zillions of 'sailing books' and study, etc., ask questioins next
time out, etc. Just carefully pick a race boat/skipper that isnt an
arrogant loudmouthed dictator, etc.

"Time on the water" is the BEST teacher.
If you are married, etc. get your wife, etc. interested .... and turn
the boat over to HER. If she 'likes' sailing .... you wont have any
choice (nor future disappointments)!!!

Hope this helps, see ya on the water
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