Hi,

I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
however.

The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of
22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is
not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being
the skipper.

The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours
of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once
you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own.

What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than
the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision
afterwards is required.

Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too
lax, or am I missing something?

Thanks for any input!

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,

I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
however.

The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of
22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is
not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being
the skipper.

The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours
of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once
you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own.

What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than
the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision
afterwards is required.

Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too
lax, or am I missing something?

Thanks for any input!

The J24 is a harder boat to sail than the jeaneau. Its a racing yacht
designed for speed with little comfort. Along with that comes a very
responsive boat that is not too forgiving. That's a good thing! You feel the
breeze and wave action more on a smaller boat and get "the feel" faster.

Usually ( I say usually -not always) there are only part time instructors at
Clubs. On the other hand schools have pro instructors and ,at the risk of
insulting some clubs, the school courses are more structured as they are
answerable to the client.

However it depends on what sort of sailing you are planning to do. If you
want to spend your time chartering larger boats in romantic destinations you
will be better with the Jenneau. But if you want to race or buy a smaller
yacht you will be better off learning on the J24.

Btw, those hours they have quoted would be the minimum. You will not be a
good sailor at that point and will need to continue with training and
plenty of hours on board to get more and more experience. I have been
sailing nearly 30 years, have done ocean deliveries and raced very heavily.
I have taught sailing professionally. But still learn something new nearly
every time out.

DP

wrote in news:1135357759.496030.174530
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
however.



I think you need Option 3, but I know how hard it is for a New Yorker to
think about.....

Option 3 is to head on down to the docks and actually make some friends.
I've only been bitten by a couple of yachtsmen and neither wound was
fatal, obviously. You'll very soon be able to spot the social misfits
and hermits from the nice people who own sailboats. Go find some nice
folks.

What do you "do"? Can you fix mechanical stuff? sand and paint? do
electrical or electronic work? Help fix the damned leaky sink faucet?
Know anything about cabinetry? sew? I'm trying to point out what those
nice people you just met need on their boat you might be able to lend a
hand with, or outright fix for them. You'd be AMAZED how friendly a
yachtsman can be if YOU are the guy who figured out how to stop the head
from leaking or got that electrical outlet in the galley to work, again.

Know anything about diesel engines or transmissions? Battery DC power
systems? Why the fuel guage only works occasionally? How to change the
fuel filter? We're talking BIGTIME "Welcome Aboard", here!

I used to have some small boats. I've had them since I was a little kid.
I can't afford a $200K yacht. So, that's what I did. I was friends with
a guy whos wife I helped get her ham radio license. I helped him on his
electrical problems on his Cal 39' sloop. The guy across his dock was a
liveaboard medical researcher in a Hatteras 56' motor yacht. I got
introduced. The doctor and I are great friends for many years, even
though our worlds are light years apart and he doesn't have the Hat any
more. One yachtsman introduced me to the most fantastic Englishman I
ever met. I sail on his yacht all year. Hell, I brought it back from
Florida when he paid for it. I've completely outfitted it with the
finest electronics. I found its "new-used" Perkins 4-108 on this very
newsgroup in NC. I rebuilt its DC electrical system. Last year, I spent
March in Daytona Beach aboard it while my English friend went back to his
office in Atlanta to work. That vacation cost me a hundred dollars and
was almost 40 days long, including sailing it home in the Gulfstreamer
offshore sailboat race from Ponce Inlet, FL to our home base in
Charleston, SC.

You'll learn more sailing with these experienced yachtsmen, even just
cruising around Long Island Sound having a great time, than that sailing
school will trying to rush you through to maximize profits. All you have
to do is a little manual labor of love and, take it from me, the most
welcome guest coming up the gangway.

Newbie hint - If he invites you sailing, be SURE to hang around after you
get back to the dock and help CLEAN UP THE BOAT! His rich guests never
help clean anything...(c; Point out the wine some broad spilled on the
teak and ask where the cleaning supplies are you can't find. Don't wait
to be asked to help. He won't do that. Just do it... Doing up the
dishes is a SURE sign the WIFE will want you back aboard! You ate her
lunch. It's your duty to clean that galley, even if there are no hints.

One of my yachtie friends took me aboard a Hat 51 yacht-fishing boat,
today. I met the owner who is restoring this nice boat. I'll be working
over the electronics on it by next spring...(c; It's a great project
boat...and, it's fridge is always full of fine beers.

On 23 Dec 2005 09:09:19 -0800, wrote:

Hi,

I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
however.

The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of
22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is
not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being
the skipper.

The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours
of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once
you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own.

What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than
the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision
afterwards is required.

Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too
lax, or am I missing something?

Thanks for any input!

I noticed that two posters suggested taking Power Squadron courses.
While I admire the Power Squadron volunteers, they offer only
classroom instruction. Studying the theory of docking, anchoring,
sail trim, MOB, etc. is not akin to actually docking, anchoring,
trimming sails and practicing MOB under power and sail. I could
produce a more comprehensive list, but I think I made the point.

You might check out the American Sailing Association schools in your
your vicinity
(http://www.american-sailing.com/lear...ng_school.html)

Or US Sailing http://www.ussailing.org/community/wts/

The instructors in these organizations are not volunteers. They are
either part-time or full-time paid instructors. They have an
on-the-water component to their certification.

I noticed that one of Pinnacle's bases is in Seattle. I can assure
that 15 hours is NOT sufficient to sail in the Pacific Northwest.

BTW - I am neither an ASA or US Sailing instructor.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

On 23 Dec 2005 09:09:19 -0800, wrote:
I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
however.

The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of
22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is
not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being
the skipper.

The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours
of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once
you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own.

================================================== =

In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on
your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a
bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may
run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more
experience then that to go out safely.

Manhattan Sailing school has been around for a long time and it sounds
like they have a more common sense approach. NY Harbor is a fun place
to sail and the J24s are good training boats. I'd go for it. You'll
probably meet some interesting people as a bonus.

Wayne.B wrote:

In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on
your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a
bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may
run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more
experience then that to go out safely.

I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you
ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you
combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of
study with the right books it could be adequate.

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

I honestly don't think we were substantially safer boat operators after
7,000 miles and one year of living on board than we were when we first
left San Diego. The keys to safety at sea are knowing to stay put when
bad weather is forecast, keeping a good lookout, knowing how to read a
chart and plot a GPS position on it (and knowing not to trust GPS
positions plotted on charts of Mexican waters), basic understanding of
the boat's systems, knowing to reef when things get wild, and knowing
the basic principles of anchoring. None of these things take a lot of
practice or experience and they can all be learned from the right
books.

There is only thing that I think you really need to have a lot of
practice at to do safely with a sailboat, and that is maneauver into a
slip. After a year of cruising and living at anchor my wife and I
still sucked at it because we avoided marinas and never got any
practice.

Andy

Andy wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:


In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on
your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a
bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may
run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more
experience then that to go out safely.


I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you
ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you
combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of
study with the right books it could be adequate.

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

I honestly don't think we were substantially safer boat operators after
7,000 miles and one year of living on board than we were when we first
left San Diego. The keys to safety at sea are knowing to stay put when
bad weather is forecast, keeping a good lookout, knowing how to read a
chart and plot a GPS position on it (and knowing not to trust GPS
positions plotted on charts of Mexican waters), basic understanding of
the boat's systems, knowing to reef when things get wild, and knowing
the basic principles of anchoring. None of these things take a lot of
practice or experience and they can all be learned from the right
books.

There is only thing that I think you really need to have a lot of
practice at to do safely with a sailboat, and that is maneauver into a
slip. After a year of cruising and living at anchor my wife and I
still sucked at it because we avoided marinas and never got any
practice.

Andy

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Gary wrote:
Andy wrote:

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gary wrote:
Andy wrote:

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

Andy


OMG you are kidding right? That information is dangerous.

Seamanship can not be just learned from books. I must be taught under the
instruction of an experienced sailor or qualified instructor.

A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in
a proper drill.

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

DP

On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy"
wrote:



Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

Docking under power and sail
MOB (upwind and downwind) and under power
Reefing
Gennaker and spinnaker handling and trim
Anchoring with two anchors
Anchoring stern-to shore / dock
Practical application of Colregs
Getting meaningful weather forecasts
Being able to read clouds, wind directions and barometers to do your
own forecasting
Passage planning

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Eventually you will want to learn sail trim to go faster as well as
save wear and tear on your sails.


Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

You might want to read this article.
(http://www.itweek.co.uk/itweek/news/...s-plan-outages)
The traditional navigation skills might be needed.

I would suggest that navigation is not that straightforward. I teach
both traditional navigation and elctronic navigation (but not
celestial). Our courses run 8 to 10 weeks in length.


Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

I have seen a lot of very poor anchoring strategies. During my 25
years of sailing, I have not dragged anchor once even when others
around me are doing so.



The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

I am not sure what courses you have taken, but we teach daily, weekly
and seasonal maintenance of boat systems, sails and rigging .

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________