Wayne.B wrote:

In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on
your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a
bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may
run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more
experience then that to go out safely.

I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you
ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you
combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of
study with the right books it could be adequate.

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

I honestly don't think we were substantially safer boat operators after
7,000 miles and one year of living on board than we were when we first
left San Diego. The keys to safety at sea are knowing to stay put when
bad weather is forecast, keeping a good lookout, knowing how to read a
chart and plot a GPS position on it (and knowing not to trust GPS
positions plotted on charts of Mexican waters), basic understanding of
the boat's systems, knowing to reef when things get wild, and knowing
the basic principles of anchoring. None of these things take a lot of
practice or experience and they can all be learned from the right
books.

There is only thing that I think you really need to have a lot of
practice at to do safely with a sailboat, and that is maneauver into a
slip. After a year of cruising and living at anchor my wife and I
still sucked at it because we avoided marinas and never got any
practice.

Andy

Andy wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:


In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on
your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a
bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may
run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more
experience then that to go out safely.


I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you
ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you
combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of
study with the right books it could be adequate.

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

I honestly don't think we were substantially safer boat operators after
7,000 miles and one year of living on board than we were when we first
left San Diego. The keys to safety at sea are knowing to stay put when
bad weather is forecast, keeping a good lookout, knowing how to read a
chart and plot a GPS position on it (and knowing not to trust GPS
positions plotted on charts of Mexican waters), basic understanding of
the boat's systems, knowing to reef when things get wild, and knowing
the basic principles of anchoring. None of these things take a lot of
practice or experience and they can all be learned from the right
books.

There is only thing that I think you really need to have a lot of
practice at to do safely with a sailboat, and that is maneauver into a
slip. After a year of cruising and living at anchor my wife and I
still sucked at it because we avoided marinas and never got any
practice.

Andy

You are very lucky.

Gaz

On 25 Dec 2005 20:39:47 -0800, "Andy"
wrote:



I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you
ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you
combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of
study with the right books it could be adequate.



Andy

In my experience as an instructor, the major factor in coming a
confident competent sailor is helm time.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

wrote:
: I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I
: am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that
: leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required,
: however.
:
: The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of
: 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is
: not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being
: the skipper.
:
: The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours
: of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once
: you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own.
:
: What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than
: the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision
: afterwards is required.
:
: Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too
: lax, or am I missing something?

I live in Jersey City and have taken courses at all three clubs
on the New York Harbor. In addition to your
http://www.sailmanhattan.com/
check out
http://www.sailtruenorth.com/
and http://www.aroundtheharbor.com/
Note that aroundtheharbor is the nyc chapter of
http://www.offshore-sailing.com/

Truenorth and offshore are both on the Jersey side. Truenorth
is right at the Pavonia/Newport PATH station, very easily accessible.
Offshore is PATH to Pavonia, then Light Rail to Liberty State Park,
then a 10-minute walk to Liberty Landing Gate D, where its boats are.
All three are approximately the same price for classes and club
memberships. Truenorth also has J/24's; offshore has Colgate 26's
(roughly the same thing, but easier and quicker to set up).

Offshore has the easiest boat use policy -- there's no "skipper"
designation, and any two club members can reserve and take out
a boat. In fact, I've found myself in some uncomfortable situations
on offshore boats, assuming people knew what they were doing when
they didn't. Both other clubs have more rigid policies.
Nevertheless, all in all, I personally like offshore the best.
But call/visit all three yourself.

As others said, you might not really want to bareboat charter
a 37-foot boat immediately. Maybe visit the local clubs and
find some (more experienced) people to split your first few
charters with.

By the way, if your email is also your website, then (a)congratulations,
and (b)inappropriate sailing wardrobe . Get some sailing gloves and
canvas deck shoes (or more expensive ones if you like) at West Marine,
12 West 37th Street.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh )

Gary wrote:
Andy wrote:

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gary wrote:
Andy wrote:

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

Andy


OMG you are kidding right? That information is dangerous.

Seamanship can not be just learned from books. I must be taught under the
instruction of an experienced sailor or qualified instructor.

A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in
a proper drill.

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

DP

A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

All of the topics you mention about anchoring are more than adequately
covered in any number of books. Just saying "doing it in the water is
the right way to do it" doesn't make it true. I practiced anchoring
exactly once with an instructor, read some books, and then successfully
anchored every night for a year without once dragging.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in
a proper drill.

I read some books about MOB recovery and then my wife and I practiced a
few times. I can't see how an instructor's guidance would have added
anything significant. By the way, we actually did recover a MOB
without incident (though he fell off a freighter, not our boat).

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

I find this assertion strange. The books I read explained VHF
procedures more than adequately.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

As I mentioned in my original post, pulling a boat up to a dock or slip
is the one thing I think you really should practice a lot. Picking up
a mooring is pretty self-explanatory.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Reefing is pretty easy to figure out from books and a little practice
on your own boat. Same with sail changes. Knots are easy to learn
from books. Groundings? Are you saying that an instructor is going to
ground a boat to teach you how to get it off? If not, then all an
instructor can do to teach you about groundings is tell you what to
try, which a book can do just as well, if not better since you can get
the book out when you run aground but you may have trouble remembering
exactly what the instructor said.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

Of course one should practice what one learns from books on the water,
but to me instruction from a live instructor is not really necessary
for anything but basic helmsmanship, basic sail trim, and maneuvering
into docks and slips.

Andy

On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy"
wrote:



Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

Docking under power and sail
MOB (upwind and downwind) and under power
Reefing
Gennaker and spinnaker handling and trim
Anchoring with two anchors
Anchoring stern-to shore / dock
Practical application of Colregs
Getting meaningful weather forecasts
Being able to read clouds, wind directions and barometers to do your
own forecasting
Passage planning

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Eventually you will want to learn sail trim to go faster as well as
save wear and tear on your sails.


Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

You might want to read this article.
(http://www.itweek.co.uk/itweek/news/...s-plan-outages)
The traditional navigation skills might be needed.

I would suggest that navigation is not that straightforward. I teach
both traditional navigation and elctronic navigation (but not
celestial). Our courses run 8 to 10 weeks in length.


Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

I have seen a lot of very poor anchoring strategies. During my 25
years of sailing, I have not dragged anchor once even when others
around me are doing so.



The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

I am not sure what courses you have taken, but we teach daily, weekly
and seasonal maintenance of boat systems, sails and rigging .

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

All of the topics you mention about anchoring are more than adequately
covered in any number of books. Just saying "doing it in the water is
the right way to do it" doesn't make it true. I practiced anchoring
exactly once with an instructor, read some books, and then successfully
anchored every night for a year without once dragging.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced
in
a proper drill.

I read some books about MOB recovery and then my wife and I practiced a
few times. I can't see how an instructor's guidance would have added
anything significant. By the way, we actually did recover a MOB
without incident (though he fell off a freighter, not our boat).

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

I find this assertion strange. The books I read explained VHF
procedures more than adequately.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you
a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

As I mentioned in my original post, pulling a boat up to a dock or slip
is the one thing I think you really should practice a lot. Picking up
a mooring is pretty self-explanatory.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off
the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Reefing is pretty easy to figure out from books and a little practice
on your own boat. Same with sail changes. Knots are easy to learn
from books. Groundings? Are you saying that an instructor is going to
ground a boat to teach you how to get it off? If not, then all an
instructor can do to teach you about groundings is tell you what to
try, which a book can do just as well, if not better since you can get
the book out when you run aground but you may have trouble remembering
exactly what the instructor said.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The
blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

Of course one should practice what one learns from books on the water,
but to me instruction from a live instructor is not really necessary
for anything but basic helmsmanship, basic sail trim, and maneuvering
into docks and slips.

Andy


Your ignorance is frightening! You have already proven that with your
comment about anchoring- a bigger anchor is not the answer.

MOB: what mistakes did you make? Do you know if you made any? What
techniques did you not use? Who was there to tell you?

Radio: What mistakes have you made on the Radio? Ever done a mayday Relay
transmission? Ever Practiced it? I doubt it -an instructor will make sure
you do.

Groundings: a good instructor will take the student through the motions of
backing sails, heeling the boat by several means etc. How many times have
you sailed backwards? Have you ever laid a kedging anchor? What techniques
did you use? What mistakes did you make? Where was the instructor to prevent
you making them?

Sail trim: What about mast bend? What mistakes have you made? Where was the
instructor?

The list is endless. I have over 30 years on water experience and have
taught professionally. I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of
seamiles under my belt. It not the ocean, I worry about. It people like you
that scare me.

DP

"d parker" wrote in message
...


I have over 30 years on water experience and have taught professionally.
I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of seamiles under my
belt. DP


And so do millions of other people. So what?

Eisboch