Gary wrote:
Andy wrote:

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gary wrote:
Andy wrote:

My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama
City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails
around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising,
navigation, anchoring, etc.

You are very lucky.

Gaz

Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of
experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned
from books?

The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and
straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art
of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to
know how to roughly trim the sails.

Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be
learned from books.

Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from
books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety
margin.

The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of
the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses
anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too.

Andy


OMG you are kidding right? That information is dangerous.

Seamanship can not be just learned from books. I must be taught under the
instruction of an experienced sailor or qualified instructor.

A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in
a proper drill.

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

DP

A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

All of the topics you mention about anchoring are more than adequately
covered in any number of books. Just saying "doing it in the water is
the right way to do it" doesn't make it true. I practiced anchoring
exactly once with an instructor, read some books, and then successfully
anchored every night for a year without once dragging.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in
a proper drill.

I read some books about MOB recovery and then my wife and I practiced a
few times. I can't see how an instructor's guidance would have added
anything significant. By the way, we actually did recover a MOB
without incident (though he fell off a freighter, not our boat).

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

I find this assertion strange. The books I read explained VHF
procedures more than adequately.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

As I mentioned in my original post, pulling a boat up to a dock or slip
is the one thing I think you really should practice a lot. Picking up
a mooring is pretty self-explanatory.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Reefing is pretty easy to figure out from books and a little practice
on your own boat. Same with sail changes. Knots are easy to learn
from books. Groundings? Are you saying that an instructor is going to
ground a boat to teach you how to get it off? If not, then all an
instructor can do to teach you about groundings is tell you what to
try, which a book can do just as well, if not better since you can get
the book out when you run aground but you may have trouble remembering
exactly what the instructor said.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

Of course one should practice what one learns from books on the water,
but to me instruction from a live instructor is not really necessary
for anything but basic helmsmanship, basic sail trim, and maneuvering
into docks and slips.

Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...
A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into
account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases,
other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an
instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the
best.

All of the topics you mention about anchoring are more than adequately
covered in any number of books. Just saying "doing it in the water is
the right way to do it" doesn't make it true. I practiced anchoring
exactly once with an instructor, read some books, and then successfully
anchored every night for a year without once dragging.

You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on
the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable.
Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all
things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced
in
a proper drill.

I read some books about MOB recovery and then my wife and I practiced a
few times. I can't see how an instructor's guidance would have added
anything significant. By the way, we actually did recover a MOB
without incident (though he fell off a freighter, not our boat).

Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to
ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their
obligations when on VHF or MF/HF.

I find this assertion strange. The books I read explained VHF
procedures more than adequately.

Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in
books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good
instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you
a
feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action.

As I mentioned in my original post, pulling a boat up to a dock or slip
is the one thing I think you really should practice a lot. Picking up
a mooring is pretty self-explanatory.

Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off
the
top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too.

Reefing is pretty easy to figure out from books and a little practice
on your own boat. Same with sail changes. Knots are easy to learn
from books. Groundings? Are you saying that an instructor is going to
ground a boat to teach you how to get it off? If not, then all an
instructor can do to teach you about groundings is tell you what to
try, which a book can do just as well, if not better since you can get
the book out when you run aground but you may have trouble remembering
exactly what the instructor said.

Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The
blasé
comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous
though.

Of course one should practice what one learns from books on the water,
but to me instruction from a live instructor is not really necessary
for anything but basic helmsmanship, basic sail trim, and maneuvering
into docks and slips.

Andy


Your ignorance is frightening! You have already proven that with your
comment about anchoring- a bigger anchor is not the answer.

MOB: what mistakes did you make? Do you know if you made any? What
techniques did you not use? Who was there to tell you?

Radio: What mistakes have you made on the Radio? Ever done a mayday Relay
transmission? Ever Practiced it? I doubt it -an instructor will make sure
you do.

Groundings: a good instructor will take the student through the motions of
backing sails, heeling the boat by several means etc. How many times have
you sailed backwards? Have you ever laid a kedging anchor? What techniques
did you use? What mistakes did you make? Where was the instructor to prevent
you making them?

Sail trim: What about mast bend? What mistakes have you made? Where was the
instructor?

The list is endless. I have over 30 years on water experience and have
taught professionally. I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of
seamiles under my belt. It not the ocean, I worry about. It people like you
that scare me.

DP

"d parker" wrote in message
...


I have over 30 years on water experience and have taught professionally.
I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of seamiles under my
belt. DP


And so do millions of other people. So what?

Eisboch

d parker wrote:

Your ignorance is frightening! You have already proven that with your
comment about anchoring- a bigger anchor is not the answer.

If my ignorance of anchoring is frightening, why did I never drag once
in a year of living at anchor? If someone can spend almost 300 days at
anchor in all kinds of conditions without dragging once, wouldn't you
say they probably had an adequate knowledge of how to anchor?

MOB: what mistakes did you make? Do you know if you made any? What
techniques did you not use? Who was there to tell you?

Well, the Ukranian sailor I pulled out of the ocean off of Panama 6
hours after he fell off his freighter seem pretty pleased with my
technique, so I would say that any mistakes I made were probably
cosmetic. In any event, my wife and I practiced MOB from time to time,
and we could tell when we did a good job of it, and we could tell when
we made a mess of it. Its not that hard to distinguish a poor MOB from
a good one.

Radio: What mistakes have you made on the Radio? Ever done a mayday Relay
transmission? Ever Practiced it? I doubt it -an instructor will make sure
you do.

I was cruising in an area where the local standard was to whistle into
the radio to get another boats attention, and then babble in spanish at
a high rate of speed. We had everything from cruisers to cruise ships
to container ships to shrimpers to various navies, all with differing
levels of proficiency, different languages, and different radio
customs. You listened and learned as you went and you did whatever
worked.

Groundings: a good instructor will take the student through the motions of
backing sails, heeling the boat by several means etc. How many times have
you sailed backwards? Have you ever laid a kedging anchor? What techniques
did you use? What mistakes did you make? Where was the instructor to prevent
you making them?

Books explain techniques for getting out of a grounding perfectly
adequately. I learned sailing backwards on my own; I taught myself to
anchor under sail and weigh anchor under sail and my wife and I
routinely anchored and raised anchor under sail. I also taught myself
to pick up a mooring under sail. Never needed to use a kedging anchor,
but if I did I knew what to do.

Sail trim: What about mast bend? What mistakes have you made? Where was the
instructor?

All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered
well in books. I have made plenty of sail trim mistakes. So what? I
spent probably 1000 to 1500 hours under way over the course of a year,
and I had all the time in the world to fiddle with sail trim and see
how it affected my speed. If I had learned everything about sail trim
from an instructor before I left I would have deprived myself of many
hours of entertainment on long passages.

The list is endless. I have over 30 years on water experience and have
taught professionally. I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of
seamiles under my belt. It not the ocean, I worry about. It people like you
that scare me.

People with 7000 sea miles of experience scare you? I guess you are
easily frightened. I am all for knowing the proper techniques for
various situations, but for a cruiser what is the real advantage of an
instructor over a well written book once you have learned basics of
sail trim, docking, and helmsmanship?

Andy

Andy wrote:
snip
: All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered
: well in books.
: Andy

Could you please list some of the books you've read that
you feel contributed to your sailing knowledge. Not so
much sail trim in particular, but engine maintenance and
mechanical systems, anchoring, docking, navigation, etc, etc.
The ASA and US Sailing books I've read for courses
(Basic Keelboat, Basic Cruising, and Bareboat) I've taken
seem way too light-weight for complete self-learning.
The USPS Advanced Sailing course book seems much better,
and sail trim seems very well covered by Tom Whidden's
The Art and Science of Sails. But I haven't found (what
seemed to me like) good books for many of the other topics
you've mentioned in your preceding posts, and would be
very interested to know what you found the most helpful.
Thanks,
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh )

John F wrote:
Andy wrote:
snip
: All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered
: well in books.
: Andy

Could you please list some of the books you've read that
you feel contributed to your sailing knowledge. Not so
much sail trim in particular, but engine maintenance and
mechanical systems, anchoring, docking, navigation, etc, etc.
The ASA and US Sailing books I've read for courses
(Basic Keelboat, Basic Cruising, and Bareboat) I've taken
seem way too light-weight for complete self-learning.
The USPS Advanced Sailing course book seems much better,
and sail trim seems very well covered by Tom Whidden's
The Art and Science of Sails. But I haven't found (what
seemed to me like) good books for many of the other topics
you've mentioned in your preceding posts, and would be
very interested to know what you found the most helpful.
Thanks,
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh )

Hi John:

I agree with you about the ASA books; they are pretty lightweight and I
wouldn't rely on them alone. I used the ASA books as basically an
introduction and overview of the topics. Chapman's Piloting, while
pretty thick, I also just used as an introductory text. When I was
actually out cruising I don't think I ever opened the ASA books, and I
only checked Chapman's as a last resort.

Here are the books that I considered to be the most useful to me in
learning to cruise. I am not saying these are the best books
available; Some of them I were on board when we bought the boat and
some of them I picked up at yard sales, etc. and I ended up finding
them useful.

1. Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook. This is what I turned to first,
since it adequately covers a surprisingly large number of diverse
topics. I suspect that if people in this newsgroup threw random topics
at me we would find that 85% of them are covered in sufficient detail
for cruising (not racing) purposes.

2. Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual; Nigel Calder. This
book resolved at least 90% of my mechanical and electrical issues.

3. Marine Diesel Engines; Calder.

4. Fundamentals of Sailing, Cruising, and Racing; Stephen Colgate.

5. Sail Like a Champion; Dennis Conner.

6. The 12 Volt Bible; Living on 12 Volts with Ample Power

7. Surviving the Storm; Dashew.

8. Pardy books, i.e. The Cost Conscious Cruiser, the Capable Cruiser,
etc.

9. Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach; Casey and Hackler.

9. A bunch of books in the peril-at-sea genre. Its good to read about
other people's mistakes.

10. Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair; Don Casey.

Andy

"Andy" wrote in message
oups.com...


People with 7000 sea miles of experience scare you? I guess you are
easily frightened. I am all for knowing the proper techniques for
various situations, but for a cruiser what is the real advantage of an
instructor over a well written book once you have learned basics of
sail trim, docking, and helmsmanship?

Andy

Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person
on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without
injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However,
books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do.

DP

d parker wrote:

Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person
on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without
injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However,
books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do.

Why would I need a person on board to tell me if I was making a
mistake? In my experience real mistakes lead to real consequences that
are pretty obvious. If the only way to detect a mistake is by having
an instructor on board then I would suggest that maybe its not a very
important mistake. Please give me an example of a mistake that:

(1) presents a significant safety risk,
(2) would not be obvious to someone who has carefully read the books
I listed in my other post,
(3) would escape detection without a qualfied instructor, i.e. the
mistake doesn't cause any consequences that would alert an ordinary
person to the fact that something is going wrong.

I would be very interested to see just one example of such a mistake.

Here is an example of a very serious mistake that I doubt is covered in
any course, but which I was aware of from reading books. There is a
certain type of anchor swivel which, if connected directly to the
anchor can fail if there is a strong pull on the rode from
perpendicular to the anchor. You can see the swivel I am talking about
he http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/new...fm?id=SD181206

To use this swivel safely you have to put a shackle on the anchor,
attach the swivel to that, and then attach the chain to the other end
of the swivel. I learned this from one of the books I read, and it was
a good thing since the previous owner of my boat had the anchor rigged
with one of these swivels mounted directly on the anchor. When I was
in Costa Rica I met a woman who lost an anchor in a very rolly and
rocky anchorage because she had one of these swivels incorrectly
mounted. Lucky for her the swivel didn't break until it came time to
raise anchor and she brought up a chain with only a snapped swivel on
the end.

My point with this example is that I doubt something this obscure would
be covered in any standard course, but someone who read a lot of books
would be aware of this issue.

Andy