"Peggie Hall" a
écrit dans le message de news:
.. .
Bryan wrote:

Trying to tell people to install
vented loops is like trying to get
them to close seacocks when they
leave the boat for extended periods.
Ain't gonna happen.

I know. Today's typical boat owner is
a new breed...clueless, happy to
remain so, unwilling to learn even
the most basic skills, do any manual
labor, or take any responsibility for
ensuring the safety of his own
boat...if I've heard "that's why I
have insurance" once, I've heard it
100 times! Perhaps if the insurance
industry stopped paying claims for
preventable losses.... But that
ain't gonna happen either.

Btw, Doug... Not all bilge pump
thru-hulls are above the waterline???
That's nutsy design...how can a pump
empty out a boat through a hole
through which water can come in
faster than the pump can push it
out??? Otoh, I just learned that a
lot of cockpit drain through-hulls
are also below the waterline...which
makes no sense to me
either...sigh...
snip

Hi - the pump outlet issue is one I
know first hand...
On a sail boat the bilge pump outlet is
frequently underwater when heeled,
and for well designed sailboats with
the outlets on the transom to avoid
this
issue, the wave they generate making
way can sometimes reach the outlets...
No loop, sticky valve and glug, glug,
glug... ;o)
Pierre.

This thread has drifted from being informational to being judgemental.
Just bcause you know some facts doesn't mean your conclusion will
match mine.

I do know what a vented loop is - I have them. I periodically check
the vents, as well as the hoses and their (double) clamps - just like
I check pretty much every system on the boat.

However, I do not close all the seacocks when I leave the boat for a
week. Doesn't mean I'm an idiot, merely that I've evaluated the risk
and found a level I'm confortable with.


On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:01:34 -0500, "Bryan"
wrote:

Peggie,

Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get them to
close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods. Ain't gonna
happen.

DSK wrote:
Bryan wrote:

Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get
them to close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods.
Ain't gonna happen.


Yep. And that's why somany boats are in the shape they're in.


When you tell people they should close all the through hulls prior to
leaving they say that is not what they are for, or that would take to
long, or don't you trust your hoses, or I can't get too my through
hulls,,,,and that is why most boats sink at the dock.


Yep again. "That's not what they're for"??!? Gee what are they for then?

"Can't get to my thru-hulls"?!?!!?!!!???!! Why did you buy a freekin'
boat with inaccessible thru-hulls?

Another common one is people who don't know where their thru-hulls are.


You should see the looks I get from the yard when I tell them the
ignition key is hanging on the closed raw water engine intake and they
will need to open the intake when getting the key to start the engine.


Another goody is people not closing their fuel tank valves.



Gary wrote:

Yup, my cousins bilge pump started syphoning and sank his boat.


"Peggie Hall" wrote

I don' TEEENK that's what happened...for a couple of reasons: bilge
pumps don't bring water INTO the boat, they remove water FROM the
boat...and the thru-hulls for bilge pumps are above the waterline.


Umm, not all of them are.


The water that sank your cousin's boat had to be coming in somewhere
else...and either the bilge pumps clogged and failed, or they kept
pumping till they drained the batteries and died...allowing the boat
to fill up and sink. Or, the water was coming in faster than the
bilge pumps could keep up with it. Or any combination/all of the above.


Rainwater can do it. Also if shore water supply is left hooked up, and a
leak begins (or a hose blows out); that is a very common way boats sink
at the dock (accoring to insurance). I guess leaving shore water hooked
up goes on the list with leaving thru-hulls & fuel valves open....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I didn't conduct an investigation. His boat sank, it had a bilge pump,
no head, and an outboard. The only thru hull was the bilge pump outlet.
It's his story. Argue about something else.

Peggie Hall wrote:
Bryan wrote:

Trying to tell people to install vented loops is like trying to get
them to close seacocks when they leave the boat for extended periods.
Ain't gonna happen.


I know. Today's typical boat owner is a new breed...clueless, happy to
remain so, unwilling to learn even the most basic skills, do any manual
labor, or take any responsibility for ensuring the safety of his own
boat...if I've heard "that's why I have insurance" once, I've heard it
100 times! Perhaps if the insurance industry stopped paying claims for
preventable losses.... But that ain't gonna happen either.

Btw, Doug... Not all bilge pump thru-hulls are above the waterline???
That's nutsy design...how can a pump empty out a boat through a hole
through which water can come in faster than the pump can push it out???
Otoh, I just learned that a lot of cockpit drain through-hulls are also
below the waterline...which makes no sense to me either...sigh...

Why not? None of my boats have had cockpit drains above the waterline
(unless heeled). That is why there are valves on them.

In article ,
Peggie Hall wrote:

Otoh, I just learned that a lot of cockpit drain through-hulls are
also below the waterline...which makes no sense to me either...sigh...

More than you might think: Ours are above the waterline at rest. At hull
speed, they're a foot under the stern wave. And I can't easily change
them because they're structural members.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:
In article ,
Peggie Hall wrote:
Otoh, I just learned that a lot of cockpit drain through-hulls are
also below the waterline...which makes no sense to me either...sigh...

More than you might think: Ours are above the waterline at rest. At hull
speed, they're a foot under the stern wave. And I can't easily change
them because they're structural members.

All my 30' yachts and under have had the cockpit drains
underwater. To have a cockpit that is designed to be within
normal proportions of height, the depth of the drain fitting
in the cockpit, with a tube clamped and led away under the
cockpit sole to it's opposite hull outlet, you're already
below water level, usually on the curve away.
Not everyone has a larger boat with high freeboard and
consequently a high cockpit sole.
The major problem is from having the corresponding valves
open when leaving the boat for any length of time, unlike
all others, which can (should) be closed.
BrianH.

I started this thread so I thought it best to let you all know how it
is progressing.

The boat in question is now out of the water and the insurance assessor
has completed his survey and estimated damage in excess of 12000 euros.
After listening to the advice on this NG I was worried the insurance
company would not pay out as my friend does not have a vented loop
fitted and yes the toilet manual valve was left open by the last user.

My friend received a phone call to say the insurance company would not
pay out in respect of this claim, expecting them to quote vented
loops...etc, but no! they said they would not pay out this claim
because in the small print of the policy it apparrantly states that
'boats must be lifted out for the winter by the 3rd November'. On
checking the policy my friend was horrified to find out he was not
covered.

Anyway to cut a long story short, the greek insurance company has
agreed to pay out in 'Good Faith' after a lot of pressure from the
Marina owner, but as you can guess the first item to be purchased will
be a Vented Loop!

Thanks to all

Rainwater can do it. Also if shore water supply is left hooked up, and
a leak begins (or a hose blows out); that is a very common way boats
sink at the dock (accoring to insurance).



Gary wrote:
I didn't conduct an investigation. His boat sank, it had a bilge pump,
no head, and an outboard. The only thru hull was the bilge pump outlet.
It's his story. Argue about something else.

Aw, c'mon. Anyway, it wasn't me insisting that it couldn't
be the bilge pump.

DSK

phasmatis wrote:

I started this thread so I thought it best to let you all know how it
is progressing.
... and yes the toilet manual valve was left open by the last user.

You're referring to the wet/dry valve on the toilet...? It's dangerous
to rely on that valve to prevent water from entering the boat while no
one is aboard! Not only can the last user leave it open, but wet/dry
valves fail.

And vented loops aren't 100% fail-safe either. Should the air valve
become clogged and someone leave the valve in the "wet" mode, water
pushed through the line over the loop can start a siphon.

So if he has ANY sense at all, not only will he install the appropriate
vented loops, but he'll close the seacocks when leaving the boat...'cuz
should it sink again, or even suffer water damage from seacocks left
open, it's unlikely that his insurance carrier will pay the next time,
no matter how much pressure the marine owner or anyone else puts on them.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

In article . com,
"phasmatis" wrote:

Anyway to cut a long story short, the greek insurance company has
agreed to pay out in 'Good Faith' after a lot of pressure from the
Marina owner, but as you can guess the first item to be purchased will
be a Vented Loop!

And the second purchase would be a policy from a different company.
Sometimes folks around here can get in a Thanksgiving cruise: 4 days the
last weekend in November. I still was adding to my tan in early
November. ;-) BUT it's 20°F/-10°C right now.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/