Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

Chuck Cox wrote:
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...
[snip]
Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

i think this is a good idea. in battery based electrical systems there
has always been a giant gap that needs to be filled in the area of
battery charging with fuel based generators. with solar panels you get
a small charge going into your bank, the same with wind generation,
usually upwards to 200 or 300 watts if you are extremely fortunate.
but if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

so i think this is a great idea for a product, one that's been needed
for a long time. a fuel based battery charger, especially great in
diesel, that will not make a pile of noise, won't generate more than a
few hundred watts of power, and efficiently turns fuel into battery
charge. what's not to like about that.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.
diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering. and
also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where ever you
want it.

"purple_stars" wrote in
oups.com:

and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing.

Ahhh....a refreshing voice of SENSE in the background noise.....

A solution might be:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/M...elName=eu1000i
I love mine. We took it to sea and out on local cruises many times.
It's so quiet and so easy on fuel. With its 12V 8A internal charger
hooked to the 12V bus plus the boat's dual 10A Guest charger running off
its rock-solid 60 Hz, 120VAC inverter power, it never left its low-speed
econo mode until someone lit off the microwave. The .6 US Gallon tank
easily runs 8 hours with that kind of load. I don't know what it runs on
that lean. The fuel system is sealed tight once you've shut off the vent
in the cap to store it, too.

I used it as a shop heater inside the stepvan when it's cold in winter,
in addition to a power supply. I welded a galvanized pipe nipple to the
little nubbin of an outlet on the muffler so I could connect some copper
tubing to the exhaust. The tubing is left in a coil that radiates heat
like mad before the cold exhaust dripping with moisture is fed through a
hole in the truck's floor outside. This way, I recover nearly 100% of
the energy from the little fuel tank as heat or power. The cooling air
recycles inside the truck and doesn't set off my CO alarm, at all. Sure
makes the shop toasty warm on a cold morning for a little mechanical
noise and a tiny bit of gas...(c;

It's a Honda, so it always starts on the first easy pull..... Anchored
with it on the bow, you can hardly hear it running inside the cabin. At
sea with it running on the stern and the exhaust pointed aft, it makes
about the same noise as the waves....Just bungie the big handle to the
stern rail by the beer cooler...

I've also connected its DC charging output directly to a thermoelectric
ice chest, just to see how it will pull that load. It's not made for
this service, but the Igloo DC cooler doesn't seem to mind. If anything,
the fan runs a little faster than it does on a battery. The voltage open
circuit is around 17VDC but drops fast from its internal resistance when
the load comes on. It's not regulated or filtered, just rectified high
frequency, multiphase AC off the flywheel coil banks that run it all....

purple_stars wrote:

if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

That is exactly our thinking too. By optimizing the system for charging
only, we can maximize efficiency. Our biggest advantage is that we have
a fixed load and can optimize the system for a very narrow operating
range in terms of speed and power. Although we are using an
off-the-shelf motor, we expect to use custom induction & exhaust systems
in order to maximize efficiency and minimize noise and size.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.

As a small business, we can only afford to design, manufacture and
support one configuration initially. I'm trying to figure out which
configuration would be our best first shot.

diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering.

Our intention is to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible.
However, most of the parts probably won't be found in a typical marine
catalog because I don't think there are too many 1 hp marine
diesel-electric applications. For example, I suspect any fuel filter or
fuel pump you find in a marine catalog is going to be far too large for
our application. The upside is that you won't have to pay marine prices
for replacement parts.

and
also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where ever you
want it.

There really won't be a "Start" button. There will only be "On/Off" and
the charger will decide when to start and stop. When you suggest this
feature, are you thinking of a built-in or stand-alone configuation? I
think this would be required in a built-in configuration, but for a
stand-alone configuration, I'm inclined to forgoe the additional expense
unless it provides a significant benefit.

Thanks for your feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

purple_stars wrote:

if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

That is exactly our thinking too. By optimizing the system for charging
only, we can maximize efficiency. Our biggest advantage is that we have
a fixed load and can optimize the system for a very narrow operating
range in terms of speed and power. Although we are using an
off-the-shelf motor, we expect to use custom induction & exhaust systems
in order to maximize efficiency and minimize noise and size.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.

As a small business, we can only afford to design, manufacture and
support one configuration initially. I'm trying to figure out which
configuration would be our best first shot.

diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering.

Our intention is to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible.
However, most of the parts probably won't be found in a typical marine
catalog because I don't think there are too many 1 hp marine
diesel-electric applications.

I have a 3 HP manual/electric start air cooled Yanmar marine diesel
with integral tank & 2:1 F-N-R box I picked up som years ago waiting
for the right project. I actually had something like this, or using it
to drive a hydraulic pump, or both, in mind.

PDW

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

I too think this is a good idea and if the price was right, would buy
one. We built something similar to use on an island once, but it was
petrol powered and quite noisy, plus relatively inefficient. Used a
motorcycle permanent magnet alternator.

PDW

Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases. A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you? Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Thanks for the feedback.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases.

If it operates belowdecks, it *has* to have some form of idiot-proof
exhaust to a weather deck.

A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you?

No.

Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

PDW

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:
Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

If we use a fuel pump, it'll probably be about the size of a shoebox.
If we use gravity, it'll be maybe 50% taller. If there is no integral
tank, maybe 1/2 a shoebox. The intake and exhaust will probably be
under 1" in diameter. For short runs, appropriate tubing of that
diameter would suffice.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:
Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

If we use a fuel pump, it'll probably be about the size of a shoebox.
If we use gravity, it'll be maybe 50% taller. If there is no integral
tank, maybe 1/2 a shoebox. The intake and exhaust will probably be
under 1" in diameter. For short runs, appropriate tubing of that
diameter would suffice.

OK, a deck locker would work nicely. The other place I'd look at
putting it was belowdecks and use a coupling to external exhaust. That
size, it's not going to use sufficient air from belowdecks to be a
problem.

There may be other applications for something like this. I can think of
one or 2 supplying power to remote field parties where solar either
doesn't provide sufficient current or isn't reliable due to cloud. I'm
in the marine science research business. If you can produce one of
these things for less than $1K I'd buy one straight off for work, just
to play with. I already have 12 Honda gensets....

PDW