Jet Ski overheating problem
 

In article .com,
wrote:

You know... I just realized that it's not the jet-skis that are the problem,
and I humbly apologize.

An epiphany!

It's the jet-ski owners.

Of course - (well, some of them) - not the boats themselves - they're
just boats.

And similarly stupid, careless, dangerous, irresponsible, oblivious, or
inexperienced
operators of all other types of boats too that "are the problem" -
that's why licensing
and required education (as is mandated for pwc operators here in NY, NJ
and Ct,. to
the benefit of all pwc enthusiasts and other boaters sharing the waters
here) - is such
a good idea, it seems to me, and it should apply to all boaters IMO as
well as pwc'ers.
How is driving a boat different from driving a car? (I mean, why does
one require proving
that you know the basics of how to do it before you're legally allowed
to, the other doesn't?

Poor thinking on your part. A small sailboat lacks both the speed &
mass to do significant damage to anyone. A powerboat doesn't. As I
pointed out elsewhere, you guys have up to 100X the kinetic energy of a
sailboat of equiv mass due to the extra speed.

Better analogy is between pushbikes and cars. Both have wheels and use
the road, right? Which is the problem WRT damage inflicted? You're on a
control freak crusade because your idiot associate PWC owners have
earned you all a well deserved bad reputation.

I'm sure you'll ignore this because it doesn't suit your agenda. That's
fine. We know you only drive a PWC because you can't aford anything
bigger, faster and more expensive.

PDW

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

"Bill McKee" wrote
sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be
damned.


Bill's rule #132.43 ?

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

I feel sorry for rich forman and his PWC buddies, sorry they have
to suffer for the actions of morons like Bill.

SBV


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article
.com,
wrote:
Well, I know that we non-stupid ones have campaigned
successfully for mandatory education and certification for
pwc
operators, the results have been terrific (lower accident
and injury

It's really nice to know. Unfortunately, there are still a
high
percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute
to the
image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes.
Keep at it though... keep at it.

Keept at what? I was talking abaout licensing requirement,
which the
previous
poster had brought up, and how I think they're a good idea.
You saw
this as an opportunity to throw in
a gratuitous dig at pwc operators and to remind me that you
don't like
them....I"m not taking the bait.

You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as
typical
for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we
non-stupid ones
have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that
group. Silly me.

Back to the topic at hand:

On the other hand, licensing per se, isn't the same as
requiring some
level of competency. Licensing regs typically extract a fee
as the
dominant feature, e.g., drivers licenses, don't really
ensure
competent drivers.

Obviously it doesn't "ensure competent drivers," but it seems
to me
that it's a lot better than nothing, don't you agree? Being
able to
demonstrate that a person has had at the very least some
education in, some

I'm not that sure it's a lot better than nothing. It's better
than
nothing, but I'm not sure it's worth the red tape, fees,
delays, etc.
It would be better if, instead of requiring a license, one was
required to take a safe boating course. That would ensure the
minimum
education you're talking about.

IMO it's a good start and it would be an even better idea to
extend the
same kind of rules to operators of all types of power boats.
I'd just
think that it'd be in all our interest...and if

Like I said just a sec ago, I don't think it's necessarily the
best
place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of
safety
class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much
to it.

No?

No. Just dumb. Oh wait, I'm not supposed to take a gratituous
dig at
jet-skiers. Sorry.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

Bill McKee wrote:

Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be
damned.

And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing
30 mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us
the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can
control it if you release the throttle?

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

Would you care to tell us
the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can
control it if you release the throttle?

As with all jet BOATS (PWC or otherwise)... when you completely let off of
the throttle you lose the majority of your steering capability. Not all..
but most. That's why PWC riders match their throttle position to their
speed, to maintain steering capability. Of course, the PWC manufacturers
realized that this was a shortcoming and invented things like OPAS
(Off-Power Steering Assist).

Sailboats on the other hand... well that's a sad story. When they become
becalmed or lose sail they lose all navigational abilities (short of firing
up their engines.. if they have them). They're nothing more than floating
buoys at the whim and will of the currents. And that's why, on a sadly
regular basis, they block navigation channels, run into piers and moorings,
and go aground. And that's also why I spend a substantial portion of my
boating season tugging these poor guys around the lake.... with my lowly
PWC.

After all... we're all BOATERS... and it's the right thing to do.

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical
for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones
have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that
group. Silly me.

I have to admit you lost me there. I re-read your previous post and
mine, and can't find where you
tried to give me a compliment ("that's really nice to know"?), OR why
you interpreted
what I said as my taking your compliment for an insult. All I meant to
do was continue
the discussion about licensing/ceritifcation rules. I'm also not sure
what group you suppose
I'm not included in. Yes, I'm definitely included in the group of
non-stupid pwc operators....I promise.
(I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa membership, my
twenty-year career as a software developer/architect
or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a separate
discussion, hopefully
you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about boating
issues.)

I don't think it's necessarily the best
place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety
class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it.

Here's where I can help you, or clarify what I was talking about
before. The heart of
NY state's pwc "licensing" requirement is that you have to take an
eight-hour basic
boating safety course (it's not a license per se that you get, but a
boating safety
certificate that shows you passed the test at the end of the course -
demonstrating
that you have been exposed to, and demonstrated at least a minimal
retention and understanding of,
the basics of boating safety). So I think we're actually in agreement
here, right? You agree
with me (and the pwc industry and community at large, for what it's
worth), precisely that,
as you say, "All boaters should have to take some safety class," that
is exactly my position.
As far as the "licensing part" and what it "adds to it," I think I'm
just looking to make someone
take a test to demonstrate that they actually did take the class, and
absorb the material satisfactorily.
If we're going to mandate that all boaters take a safety class (and I"m
really pleased to hear that you agree with
me that we should), I think you'd agree that we need some way of
verifying that they have, and paid some
attention to the information.

I'm glad we've slogged through the rougher parts of this chat, I think
we've found a lot of common ground
and I appreciate your softened, eminently reasonable and flameless tone
in the post below as well.

richforman

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

Keep at it? I intend to, and I have been "at it" for years now...
by "it" I mean trying to educate people about pwc's, who uses them, and

And, I have no problem with that, and I'm glad you're doing
it. There's a lot of work to do! (NOT A DIG

Thanks for the support and I wouldn't have taken that last sentence as
a dig - I agree with it
and realize it.

I certainly afford you "some" respect.

And I you.

... this makes me very confident that my efforts on
behalf of myself and my fellow pwc'ers has been pretty successful in
fighting prejucide ad stereortypes....

Not quite enough... suggestion... how about educating the ones who are
still on the water with the noisy, pollution machines. According to
your own words, those people are the ones giving your group a bad
name.

You're right - and I do that too. All of us more experienced
knowledgeable pwc'ers
always make it a point to take newer owners and operators out on the
water and
show them the ropes, try to help them avoid mistakes or let them know
when they're making them,
or offer advice and share information online in message-boards etc (and
I'm no guru or anything
myself, but have learned a decent amount in eight years of riding).

As for the "noisy pollution machines," well obviously it's just a
matter of time
as they continue to be very naturally outnumbered phased out, since all
the manufacturers are under
strict new EPA regulations and have just more and more
prominently/exclusively
offered newer-tech, cleaner/quieter boats....just as in the power
boating industry at large.
I think you'll agree that there are plenty of "Noisy pollution
machines" on the water besides
older pwc's, in fact, other power boats seem to have longer life
cycles, change hands more times
and stay on the water for years or decades....at any rate, there's no
shortage of noisy and polluting,
or older-tech (carb'ed 2-stroke) engines still on the water in all
kinds of boats....that condition is far
from exclusive to the pwc world. And with all types of boats including
pwc's, the handwriting is clearly
on the wall, that an increasingly greater percentage of them will be
cleaner and quieter and less polluting
year after year due to market forces as well as government mandates.
That part of it is not really in my hand
or yours (I/we can't force individual people to retire their older
dirtier louder machines until they want to), but
happily, that's the way things are going and will continue to go.

The problem is that there is a huge prejudice against jet skiers. A
couple of posts on usenet are not going to change that. What will
change that is observable evidence by more and more people.

I just snipped out one of my usual long-winded responses - I'll just
say this, I think a lot of
progress has already been made, I don't really encounter any prejudiced
anti-pwc attitude
out in the real world, and I really don't see too many problems with it
going on out on the water,
and I'm out there a LOT, and cover a lot of ground and see a lot of
fellow pwc'ers coexisting and
interacting with all other fellow boaters, fishermen, law enforcement,
kayakers (oh I'm one of them too btw, don't know
if that would surprise you or anything - someone earlier in this thread
I remember opined that pwc'ers
probably don't really love the water or the outdoors, only speed, I
guess that stereotype is pretty much deflated), surfers, pretty
peacefully, successfully and non-problematically. I think a lot of it
is due to the mandatory education requirement that's been in effect for
the last five years or six
years or so around here in NY, NJ and Ct.

richforman
richforman

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Bill McKee wrote:

Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world
be damned.

And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing 30
mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us the
turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control
it if you release the throttle?

Throttle off, no control, turning radius about a boat length.

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

In article ,
Scotty wrote:
I feel sorry for rich forman and his PWC buddies, sorry they have
to suffer for the actions of morons like Bill.

SBV

Yep.. oh well... At least some of them get the message and are doing
something positive.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jet Ski overheating problem
 

Ok..

In article .com,
wrote:
You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical
for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones
have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that
group. Silly me.

I have to admit you lost me there. I re-read your previous post and
mine, and can't find where you
tried to give me a compliment ("that's really nice to know"?), OR why

Ok... well, I was *trying*, but not hard enough. See my post to
Scotty.

(I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa membership, my
twenty-year career as a software developer/architect
or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a separate
discussion, hopefully
you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about boating
issues.)

I will as long as you don't tell me your a member of Mensa. :-)

I don't think it's necessarily the best
place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety
class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it.

Here's where I can help you, or clarify what I was talking about
before. The heart of NY state's pwc "licensing" requirement is that
you have to take an eight-hour basic boating safety course (it's
not a license per se that you get, but a boating safety certificate
that shows you passed the test at the end of the course -
demonstrating that you have been exposed to, and demonstrated at
least a minimal retention and understanding of,
the basics of boating safety). So I think we're actually in agreement
here, right? You agree

I agree with the boating safety part. So, I guess, yes.

with me (and the pwc industry and community at large, for what it's
worth), precisely that,
as you say, "All boaters should have to take some safety class," that
is exactly my position.

Kewl.

As far as the "licensing part" and what it "adds to it," I think I'm
just looking to make someone
take a test to demonstrate that they actually did take the class, and
absorb the material satisfactorily.
If we're going to mandate that all boaters take a safety class (and I"m
really pleased to hear that you agree with
me that we should), I think you'd agree that we need some way of
verifying that they have, and paid some
attention to the information.

I think the latter part is a tough road to travel. People take driving
tests and pass, but they're still terrible drivers and don't
necessarily remember the rules for longer than it takes to get from
the exam to their car. I think that the best one can do is to have
people take the class. After they take and pass the class (which would
be a pretty low standard, unfortunately), that's probably all you can
do.

I'd be happy to hear a suggestion about how to actually confirm that
they got it or that they continue to get it. Are you suggesting that
they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd
like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat.

I'm glad we've slogged through the rougher parts of this chat, I think
we've found a lot of common ground
and I appreciate your softened, eminently reasonable and flameless tone
in the post below as well.

Well, I screwed up. Don't hold it against me.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com