twoguns wrote:
I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several
of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two
years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of
all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby.blah snipped

It seems this perennial post never gets the herbicide it needs. Maybe
it began in the matchlock era - even before RBC. :-)

I'm a lifelong shootist & have a CCW in several states. I've taken a
stainless Python aboard out around my local harbor just for plinking &
to reprove how near-impossible it is to hit anything from aboard a
sailboat with a handgun unless its flat-assed calm & you are tire up to
something somewhat substantial. I'm also a former commercial Cheng,
former int'l fleet mgr, and a chicken sailor who is more preoccupied
than many with the notion of staying alive and safe, but never effette
or wimpy about it as is recreationally fashionable.

It's totally useless, pointless and poor judgement to carry a firearm
on any recreational vessel sailing anywhere beyond home port. It only
demonstrates that the Owner has no clue concerning what true safety,
prudence, and mortal self-longevity, or even human relations
discernment may be, let alone how to implement any of them.

A commerical vessel's Master often has a handgun. It is kept in the
ship's safe (which is often located in part of his quarters) and in
port the safe is sealed by Customs. The sole purpose of the weapon is
as possible defense against mutiny or for dispatching someone already
permitted or employed onboard who has become an imminent threat to the
safety and seaworthiness of the vessel, crew and cargo. As the old
expression goes: "MBK" - the Captain may marry, bury or kill - the
latter if and when in his sole judgement it is necessary. THIS IS NOT
YOU, and if you think you vaguely resemble in role and authority the
Master of an internationally trading vessel aboard your toy dreamship
and floating love palace you should have yourself voluntarily committed
to a mental institution before someone else does it for you, because
you are a grave danger to yourself and others. And of course, most
Masters have either almost forgotten the gun is in the safe, of have no
interest in it, or have never fired any handgun in their lives, or it
is a dumbass .22 derringer because the Owners are cheapskates.

This issue has nothing whatsoever to do with "Americans", "gun
"rights", "defense", or other horse hockey thrown port/starboard from
either point of view in NG's until it dribbles off the deck & out the
freeing ports like puke. At least puke is beneficially nutritional to
some forms of marine life. This isn't.

The true issue surrounds what is diplomacy, common sense, tactical
truth, and the vagarities of real life.

Any enemy boarding your noncombatant vessel has every tactical
advantage, as the two thread tales of I-got-my-ass-shot-dead armed
"defenders" (NOT) hint at. It would waste four long paragraphs to
enumerate them. Anyone who cannot enumerate them for themselves has
either been splicing the mainbrace for too many years, or has some
fundamental problem with their upbringing.

You are supposed to AVOID all potential or reasonably forseeable
circumstances of navigation or conduct which place you or your crew or
vessel as risk. This is NOT the same thing as "avoiding dangerous
ports"! The WHOLE PLANET is "dangerous" and unpredictable, as are its
inhabitants. Ergo, if you choose to believe that a yacht is a small
portable floating motel where you may go to sleep all night without a
standing watch on deck, the cruel truth is that you deserve whatever
consequences may ensue and that ALL of them are YOUR fault. The mere
fact that thousands, if not millions, of boaters do this, is moot in
any absolute terms.

In landlubber concealed carry, you would not go into any locale,
neighborhood nor even risk any kind of situation which could lead to a
conflict, unless you were an idiot or an outlaw. You would
automatically know that being armed in such a siutation exposes you to
more danger, not any less, and you would behave with great diplomacy,
ignore many affronts and cheerfully lose many arguements, and even
endure minor attacks or a punch in the nose, because you would know the
alternative is a gunfight where no one comes in second. You would know
that if you used your weapon you would still be exceedingly fortunate
to survive the outcome. If you survived, you would expect to be booked
and jailed for murder, and would fully expect to fight an uphill
$200,000 legal case, perhaps losing your house and car for the
continued priviledge of drawing breath in this vale of tears. And you
would fully expect the DA to ask you when on the stand: "Sir, please
tell this Court WHY you were out at 3:30AM in a neighborhood with four
open bars with a loaded gun - weren't you just LOOKING for a
gunfight??" And he would have one helluva point for you to overcome
with the jury. God help you if it was stoked with Glasers or other
effective anti-personnel flesh-destroying fodder.

And all of this, and much more, goes along with being a LAW ABIDING
CITIZEN in the UNITED ****ING STATES and with A LICENSE TO CARRY A
DEADLY WEAPON and ASHORE.

Yet somehow, when a tyro steps aboard his yatch, he or she immediately
thinks the world and its ways have been suspended in his or her
particular case - or even that they SHOULD be (NOT). They can consider
committing the exact same thing at an anchorage or dock IN A FOREIGN
PORT no less, but it is "different" because the hoods, scumbags, and
even the poor and hungry who are jealous of your wealth (and insulted
by your arrogance and superior attitude too) are now called "pirates."

Professional seagoing people learn by discipline and necessity to not
draw attention to themselves, not to tempt nor annoy the locals by
their appearance, demeanor or actions (and you may be a very offensive
SOB or bitch when you THINK you are being a great guy), to keep the
details of their vessel or her berth or anchorage private, to be
winsome and friendly, to be humble, even generous within prudent
limits, to be kind to the poor, to quietly promote goodwill, to avoid
every kind of trouble or remote smell of it, to make valuable allies
with key (or maybe even seamy) people on the waterfront, and to be EVER
WATCHFUL DAY AND NIGHT. Without these things, robbers and other manner
of evildoers board huge vessels more challenging than yours and cause
much bigger problems than your little $20,000 or so robbery and some
bruises.

Obviously and knowing nothing of these essential SAFETY things, you and
others seek to substitute them all with a firearm - "firearm insurance"
in your vain imagination of how waterfronts, ports and indeed the whole
rest of life, works.

OR, you are on the "other side of the arguement" and you commit all of
the same errors, vanities and inadequacies while characterizing the
other camp as savage American gunslingers, which makes you no safer and
only 2% less ignorant, but possibly 4x the twit.

Do not be surprised if we eventually see real and strict education,
training and internationally regulated licensing requirements for
navigating little recreational vessels comparable to what the real ones
require. It will be this kind of stupid **** that precipitates it, and
if you keep it up, I hope it costs you two hundred thousand dollars, 4
years of formal fulltime training in an ugly uniform, and another 5 or
6 years of supervised blue water seatime to obtain one. By then,
you'll have forgotten where you gun is.

twoguns wrote:
Are there any better but legal options that could be
followed?

Leave your guns at home in the USA. Personal firearms are not permitted
outside of the USA and you are likely to get you locked up as a
terrorist or mercenary. In many countries a law enforcement officer who
sees a firearm in the hands of a civilian will shoot first and ask
questions later.

Men in the rest of the world do not watch too many cowboy movies and are
satisfied with the size of their dicks so they do not need dangerous toys.

Ahoy The
DAMN, this thread is over-run with pacifists. No fun at all
lecturing-to-the-choir.g
Almost left an American sailboat I was crewing on when crew member said
he'd draw his gun if someone tried to steal his camera! I rudely
suggested MY life was worth a bit more than HIS camera.g

Allan, the Canadian whimp

Leave those firearms stateside or at least tell the border guard you
have them. He'll advise you what to do.

Reply
Don,
I haven't been to Canada recently but when I was in the trucking
business I was in Canada on a regular basis. At that time you could
carry a rifle or shotgun with no problems. You had to declare it at the
border and fill out a form. NO HANDGUNS were allowed whatsoever at that
time with one exception: If you were a U.S. citizen heading to Alaska
you could put the handgun in a sealed bag and carry with you. If a RCMP
or other official checked and the seal was broken while in Canada you
were in deep ****. I think since then the law has been changed and you
have to arrange for the shipment of handguns from FFL dealers on the
U.S. side of the border now. With the gun control people in firm
control in Canada even the laws against rifles and shotguns are
probably much stricter.

Oh it is possible to get mugged in Canada also. I was standing in a
line at a downtown Edmonton theater in the late 1970's and some guy
attacked a lady that took a shortcut through an alley back to her car.
Several of us standing in line for the movie heard her screams but
other than a small cut on her arm from the knife he cut her purse strap
with she was OK but it could have been a lot worse.
Dennis

It would have been more accurate to say that your life was worth a bit more
TO YOU, than his camera was TO YOU. Your value to him may have been a lot
more than the camera, or possibly not depending on how well he liked you at
the moment ;-)

Don W.

LEnfantduVent wrote:

Ahoy The
DAMN, this thread is over-run with pacifists. No fun at all
lecturing-to-the-choir.g
Almost left an American sailboat I was crewing on when crew member said
he'd draw his gun if someone tried to steal his camera! I rudely
suggested MY life was worth a bit more than HIS camera.g

Allan, the Canadian whimp

twoguns wrote:

Reply
Don,
I haven't been to Canada recently but when I was in the trucking
business I was in Canada on a regular basis. At that time you could
carry a rifle or shotgun with no problems. You had to declare it at the
border and fill out a form. NO HANDGUNS were allowed whatsoever at that
time with one exception: If you were a U.S. citizen heading to Alaska
you could put the handgun in a sealed bag and carry with you. If a RCMP
or other official checked and the seal was broken while in Canada you
were in deep ****. I think since then the law has been changed and you
have to arrange for the shipment of handguns from FFL dealers on the
U.S. side of the border now. With the gun control people in firm
control in Canada even the laws against rifles and shotguns are
probably much stricter.

Oh it is possible to get mugged in Canada also. I was standing in a
line at a downtown Edmonton theater in the late 1970's and some guy
attacked a lady that took a shortcut through an alley back to her car.
Several of us standing in line for the movie heard her screams but
other than a small cut on her arm from the knife he cut her purse strap
with she was OK but it could have been a lot worse.
Dennis

Yes..you could even get mugged in Halifax.
The last time an American carrier group visited, the Canadian Navy sent
along information that the main street from our Naval Base to downtown
was to be avoided..since it's populated by drug dealers, addicts,
prostitutes etc. What a commotion arose from that area. You would
think someone insulted their wives/daughters etc. ...and yes, it was
good advice that I would give to any visitor who asked. Anywhere
else...no guns required!

Dennis,
Be very careful accepting advise from those that do not experience
international sailing. Their advise is not worth the bit space it arrived
on. Piracy today is actually a bigger problem than it has been at any time
in history. There have been numerous articles written in the press about
this problem for more than 20 years. In fact, there are very few safe
cruising areas worldwide. The causes of the problem are numerous, but drug
running is probably the most common with abject poverty being a close
second. There are some undisputable facts like, if you encounter a problem,
there will be no assistance. You cannot just dial 911. There is nobody home.
You are on your own. You should carry multple levels of defence, like common
sense, water cannons, mace and lastly firearms. All of those have zero value
without adequate training and ongoing practise. That said, guns are like
trucks and umbrellas, when you need one, you never need a little one. If you
have something and do not need it, you can throw it away. If however, one is
required and you don't have one, use your imagination. Please remember your
enemy for firearms is not the person, it is his engine. Never allow
strangers on board. Practise do diligence. Always maintain a deck watch. On
a practical note, when carrying firearms and you are entering a foreign
country always follow maritime rules. Do not initially find dock space. Drop
your hook, go ashore in your dingy and inprocess. Fly the correct flags.
Always declare your weapons and follow the advise of the authorities. Crimes
are punishable. Following the law is not a crime. You might lose your guns,
but not your freedom.
Steve

"twoguns" wrote in message
oups.com...
I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several
of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two
years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of
all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like
trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand
rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal
on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms
so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of
the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an
international incident what procedures are best in a situation like
this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the
weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could
drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve
them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be
followed?
TIA,
Dennis

Men in the rest of the world do not watch too many cowboy movies and
are
satisfied with the size of their dicks so they do not need dangerous
toys.
************************************************** *************************************
The typical answer of a big prick who has no balls.
Dennis

On 23 Jun 2005 16:02:50 -0700, "twoguns"
wrote:

If you are right Rhys I guess we will just have to take the slingshots
and bows & arrows and leave the firearms at home. It is not a matter of
feeling a need for protection it is a matter of pure fun. We all enjoy
target shooting in one form or another. As far as know we won't be
entering any pirate infested waters.
Dennis

I come from a family with both military firearms instructors and
tactical squad police officers in it. I am neither squeamish nor
afraid of guns: they are tools with a limited set of applications. I
wouldn't take a running circular saw on a crowded bus, and I wouldn't
take a rifle on a boat: the complications outweight the benefits and
the "fun" in my estimation.

Strangely enough, though, the "slingshots and bows and arrows" are not
a bad idea, as they are quite legal in almost every country. Several
pioneering cruisers used slingshots to send film canisters and small
pieces of mail onto passing ships, and a bow and arrow could be used
for fishing in some situations or for sending a messenger line to
another boat over some distance.

For self-defense, I like the 12-gauge flare gun, or maybe a crossbow.
Realistically, though, if five guys with AK-47s board you, you would
be rash to have a go at them with guns. Maybe a small missile to blast
their boat before it got within machine gun range?

R.

Or as eight or ten somali's armed with AK-47s recently found out:
It is also rash to attempt to board a yacht piloted by a scared yachtie
armed with a 12 guage loaded with 00 buck. Of course, it helps if you
have a steel yacht so that their bullets are'nt just whizzing through the
FRP.

Don W.

rhys wrote:


For self-defense, I like the 12-gauge flare gun, or maybe a crossbow.
Realistically, though, if five guys with AK-47s board you, you would
be rash to have a go at them with guns. Maybe a small missile to blast
their boat before it got within machine gun range?

R.