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Guns on board
I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several
of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an international incident what procedures are best in a situation like this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be followed? TIA, Dennis |
Ahoy There Captain:
As a Canadian who sailed extensively along the US East Coast and around some of the Caribbean, I can only say that ONCE you leave the US you'll be quite safe.g In all my years.....and 25,000 miles of cruising.....found it was ONLY the American sailboats that felt a need to be armed to the teeth. A Sane.....and Still-Alive.....Canadian Allan |
In article .com,
LEnfantduVent wrote: Ahoy There Captain: As a Canadian who sailed extensively along the US East Coast and around some of the Caribbean, I can only say that ONCE you leave the US you'll be quite safe.g In all my years.....and 25,000 miles of cruising.....found it was ONLY the American sailboats that felt a need to be armed to the teeth. A Sane.....and Still-Alive.....Canadian Allan Well, now that the Krylon vests are found to be no good, we'll have to be even more aggressive. :-) -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
On 23 Jun 2005 08:20:51 -0700, "twoguns"
wrote: Since we don't want to have an international incident what procedures are best in a situation like this? To obey the laws regarding firearms in the waters of the countries in which you sail. I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve them later. How this is different from a drug smuggler off-loading bales of drugs into the sea for "later retrieval" is beyond me. Your hobbies of sailing and shooting may be incompatible in certain parts of the world. You'll have to ask country by country. Most places require you surrender all firearms and all ammo upon first contacting the authorities/practique/zarpe/what have you. Other places require the firearms to be locked the entire time aboard. Americans, in particular, some of whom don't "get it" on how most of the world views guns on boats, can and will have their vessels seized for violations of these sort of laws in many places. Are there any better but legal options that could be followed? Almost anything is better than your idea, which may seem clever to you, but is the equivalent of filling a tank on board with undeclared rum, or bringing drugs into a country. Speaking of which, you must carry a "drugs manifest" in many countries. Some over-the-counter drugs in North America are illegal to possess without a prescription in some countries, and others are illegal to possess in the kind of quantities a long-term cruiser might have on board. Like bringing foreign fruit in some places, or rabbits to Australia or uncertified pets to New Zealand, many officials will confiscate or destroy such items on the spot with no debate. It's no different from the U.S. banning Canadian beef on suspicion of BSE, or jailing people with legal medical marijuana outside of their home jurisdiction. Your country reserves the right to seize my vessel if Cuban rum is found aboard (perfectly legal to me) or if it is even suspected I will be travelling to Cuba, without touching a U.S. port. This is similar. R. |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:07:18 -0400, rhys wrote:
Almost anything is better than your idea, which may seem clever to you, but is the equivalent of filling a tank on board with undeclared rum, or bringing drugs into a country. I agree entirely. From those cruising yachts we have met, it seems that mainly American yachts feel that carrying guns is necessary. It should be borne in mind that: 1 Those who are going to attack you are probably more likely to shoot than you are and probably value life (others) less. We have an American couple as friends who we have cruised with for a while. He is a retired IBMer who has never really used a gun. He has an old shotgun on board that he has so much trouble with every time he enters or leaves a country - an extra thing to do when you leave. I simply cannot imagine him pulling the trigger quickly enough to kill someone. He has different moral values than those that may attack him. 2. Opponents of carrying guns such as Peter Tangveld (lots of cruising experience) say that if you don't have a weapon you are more likely to survive - obviously there are exceptions. Tangveld believes that his wife would not have been shot dead if she had not pointed her rifle. Their attackers did not harm he or his child but merely took what they wanted. Peter Blake would not have been shot in the Amazon if he had not emerged with a firearm. The others with him were not shot. We personally have met with cruisers who have been attacked by "pirates" in the Gulf of Yemen; all the boarders wanted was their gear and money. 3. Legally, guns of any type have to be declared and surrendered to customs officials or the police on entry in all countries we have visited so far. There are serious penalties for not doing so. An Australian customs officer told us that they expect that most US yachts carry weapons and sometimes search the vessel if none are declared and the person "seems to be the type who would carry a gun". An Australian millionare was recently gaoled in Indonesia for not declaring his weapons. Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore have the death penalty for having unlicenced firearms (in their countries) and do hang people for this offence. 4. If you declare your weaponry and surrender it to officials upon entry to a country then you won't have it when you probably need it most - few attacks on yachts occur at sea. Most happen whilst at anchor. It should be borne in mind that a yacht may be boarded by those with malice aforethought anywhere. It does not have to be Indonesia or Brazil. There have been several incidents whilst anchored in the Bay of Naples and even to a yacht anchored off the city of Messina in Italy that come to mind. These are acts of piracy too, or are pirates members of that class only if they wear an eye patch, have a peg leg and have a parrot on their shoulder? We have another American friend who sails with his family between Malaysia and the Phillippines. He has a wooden "replica" of an M-16 that he waves about if suspicious characters come to close. Most attackers do not want to get hurt either. He dopesn't have to surrender this to the authorities. with all of this I admit that I have a 12 gauge flare pistol with standard flares. It is purely a weapon of final self defence and is mounted below in its cannister where I can grab it is someone boards while we are sleeping. What really worries us and others we have talked to is those who do carry weaponry. Some Americans are adherents of the gun culture who seem to think that it is ok to shoot someone even if your property is being threatened. What if I rowed up to their boat at night for any reason - might I get shot by a gung-ho John Wayne type? Peter. N.Z. yacht Herodotus |
If you are right Rhys I guess we will just have to take the slingshots
and bows & arrows and leave the firearms at home. It is not a matter of feeling a need for protection it is a matter of pure fun. We all enjoy target shooting in one form or another. As far as know we won't be entering any pirate infested waters. Dennis |
"Peter Hendra" wrote in message
... On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:07:18 -0400, rhys wrote: Almost anything is better than your idea, which may seem clever to you, but is the equivalent of filling a tank on board with undeclared rum, or bringing drugs into a country. I agree entirely. From those cruising yachts we have met, it seems that mainly American yachts feel that carrying guns is necessary. It should be borne in mind that: 1 Those who are going to attack you are probably more likely to shoot than you are and probably value life (others) less. We have an American couple as friends who we have cruised with for a while. He is a retired IBMer who has never really used a gun. He has an old shotgun on board that he has so much trouble with every time he enters or leaves a country - an extra thing to do when you leave. I simply cannot imagine him pulling the trigger quickly enough to kill someone. He has different moral values than those that may attack him. 2. Opponents of carrying guns such as Peter Tangveld (lots of cruising experience) say that if you don't have a weapon you are more likely to survive - obviously there are exceptions. Tangveld believes that his wife would not have been shot dead if she had not pointed her rifle. Their attackers did not harm he or his child but merely took what they wanted. Peter Blake would not have been shot in the Amazon if he had not emerged with a firearm. The others with him were not shot. We personally have met with cruisers who have been attacked by "pirates" in the Gulf of Yemen; all the boarders wanted was their gear and money. 3. Legally, guns of any type have to be declared and surrendered to customs officials or the police on entry in all countries we have visited so far. There are serious penalties for not doing so. An Australian customs officer told us that they expect that most US yachts carry weapons and sometimes search the vessel if none are declared and the person "seems to be the type who would carry a gun". An Australian millionare was recently gaoled in Indonesia for not declaring his weapons. Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore have the death penalty for having unlicenced firearms (in their countries) and do hang people for this offence. 4. If you declare your weaponry and surrender it to officials upon entry to a country then you won't have it when you probably need it most - few attacks on yachts occur at sea. Most happen whilst at anchor. It should be borne in mind that a yacht may be boarded by those with malice aforethought anywhere. It does not have to be Indonesia or Brazil. There have been several incidents whilst anchored in the Bay of Naples and even to a yacht anchored off the city of Messina in Italy that come to mind. These are acts of piracy too, or are pirates members of that class only if they wear an eye patch, have a peg leg and have a parrot on their shoulder? We have another American friend who sails with his family between Malaysia and the Phillippines. He has a wooden "replica" of an M-16 that he waves about if suspicious characters come to close. Most attackers do not want to get hurt either. He dopesn't have to surrender this to the authorities. with all of this I admit that I have a 12 gauge flare pistol with standard flares. It is purely a weapon of final self defence and is mounted below in its cannister where I can grab it is someone boards while we are sleeping. What really worries us and others we have talked to is those who do carry weaponry. Some Americans are adherents of the gun culture who seem to think that it is ok to shoot someone even if your property is being threatened. What if I rowed up to their boat at night for any reason - might I get shot by a gung-ho John Wayne type? Peter. N.Z. yacht Herodotus Well, duhhh... just kidding. I guess you never heard about the guy who shot some kid on Halloween. He warned him off, then shot him. Unfortunately, the kid didn't speak English. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
HarryKrause wrote:
twoguns wrote: I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an international incident what procedures are best in a situation like this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be followed? TIA, Dennis That sounds like a wonderful way to end up the girlfriend of some really gnarly Mexican prisoner. You might want to contact the Mexican consulate in your area and get a take on the proper and legal way to carry firearms into that country. The outcome likely will be more acceptable to all. Just in the news this month was a number of American tourists trying to enter Canada without declaring their firearms. Our border people take the weapons and fine the guilty party $ 1K. Some visitors try to hide the firearms in concealed compartments in their campers. One guy was carrying on a motorcycle. All say they needed the guns for self-defence. In this end of the country especially, (Maritime provinces) you will not need protection. bring lots of Yankee dollahs and we'll make you feel right at home.....sometimes better than home. Leave those firearms stateside or at least tell the border guard you have them. He'll advise you what to do. |
"WaIIy" wrote in message
... On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:54:02 +1000, Peter Hendra wrote: What really worries us and others we have talked to is those who do carry weaponry. Some Americans are adherents of the gun culture who seem to think that it is ok to shoot someone even if your property is being threatened. What if I rowed up to their boat at night for any reason - might I get shot by a gung-ho John Wayne type? Peter. N.Z. yacht Herodotus Take your "All Americans are pigs" shots to a political group. Geez Pride, Integrity, and Guts! -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:09:37 -0400, HarryKrause
wrote: twoguns wrote: I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an international incident what procedures are best in a situation like this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be followed? TIA, Dennis While I'm not sure where you are intending going you do mention "world cruise" so you may be traveling to my neck of the woods, South East Asia. You should be aware that in some countries, Singapore and Malaysia, for example, the penalty for possession of a firearm or ammunition is death and before you get any idea that being a U.S. citizen would protect you if you were to be caught you should be advised that both Singapore and Malaysia have hung quite a number of foreigners from the west. Now, having said that, there are procedures for legally entering both Singapore and Malaysia with firearms and/or ammunition. Basically you would advise the Customs and/or Police either prior to entering port or immediately upon entering port. The Customs/Police would store the wepons/ammo for you while you were in port and would deliver the wepons/ammo to your vessel upon your departing - all of this at your cost. In Thailand weapons, pistols for example, are classified by caliber or type. A 9mm might be considered as self protection while a 12 MM (.45) is considered as a "war weapon" as would an M-16 or AK-47. Posession of war weapons will certainly get you a number of years in the Thai prison system. Posession of a "self-defence" weapon will certainly get you fined, possibly Imprisoned and possibly your boat would be seized. As for dropping things overboard and logging a GPS position you should be aware, as the Customs and Police of most countries are, that this is something that folks who are attempting to deliver "recreational drugs" sometimes try. They usually get caught. I'm not trying to scare you or deter you in taking firearms with you but you should be aware that a large number of countries in the world are intent on keeping firearms out of the hands of their citizens and therefore have draconian anti-gun laws that will be appled to anyone entering the country. Cheers, Anon ) |
twoguns wrote:
I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby.blah snipped It seems this perennial post never gets the herbicide it needs. Maybe it began in the matchlock era - even before RBC. :-) I'm a lifelong shootist & have a CCW in several states. I've taken a stainless Python aboard out around my local harbor just for plinking & to reprove how near-impossible it is to hit anything from aboard a sailboat with a handgun unless its flat-assed calm & you are tire up to something somewhat substantial. I'm also a former commercial Cheng, former int'l fleet mgr, and a chicken sailor who is more preoccupied than many with the notion of staying alive and safe, but never effette or wimpy about it as is recreationally fashionable. It's totally useless, pointless and poor judgement to carry a firearm on any recreational vessel sailing anywhere beyond home port. It only demonstrates that the Owner has no clue concerning what true safety, prudence, and mortal self-longevity, or even human relations discernment may be, let alone how to implement any of them. A commerical vessel's Master often has a handgun. It is kept in the ship's safe (which is often located in part of his quarters) and in port the safe is sealed by Customs. The sole purpose of the weapon is as possible defense against mutiny or for dispatching someone already permitted or employed onboard who has become an imminent threat to the safety and seaworthiness of the vessel, crew and cargo. As the old expression goes: "MBK" - the Captain may marry, bury or kill - the latter if and when in his sole judgement it is necessary. THIS IS NOT YOU, and if you think you vaguely resemble in role and authority the Master of an internationally trading vessel aboard your toy dreamship and floating love palace you should have yourself voluntarily committed to a mental institution before someone else does it for you, because you are a grave danger to yourself and others. And of course, most Masters have either almost forgotten the gun is in the safe, of have no interest in it, or have never fired any handgun in their lives, or it is a dumbass .22 derringer because the Owners are cheapskates. This issue has nothing whatsoever to do with "Americans", "gun "rights", "defense", or other horse hockey thrown port/starboard from either point of view in NG's until it dribbles off the deck & out the freeing ports like puke. At least puke is beneficially nutritional to some forms of marine life. This isn't. The true issue surrounds what is diplomacy, common sense, tactical truth, and the vagarities of real life. Any enemy boarding your noncombatant vessel has every tactical advantage, as the two thread tales of I-got-my-ass-shot-dead armed "defenders" (NOT) hint at. It would waste four long paragraphs to enumerate them. Anyone who cannot enumerate them for themselves has either been splicing the mainbrace for too many years, or has some fundamental problem with their upbringing. You are supposed to AVOID all potential or reasonably forseeable circumstances of navigation or conduct which place you or your crew or vessel as risk. This is NOT the same thing as "avoiding dangerous ports"! The WHOLE PLANET is "dangerous" and unpredictable, as are its inhabitants. Ergo, if you choose to believe that a yacht is a small portable floating motel where you may go to sleep all night without a standing watch on deck, the cruel truth is that you deserve whatever consequences may ensue and that ALL of them are YOUR fault. The mere fact that thousands, if not millions, of boaters do this, is moot in any absolute terms. In landlubber concealed carry, you would not go into any locale, neighborhood nor even risk any kind of situation which could lead to a conflict, unless you were an idiot or an outlaw. You would automatically know that being armed in such a siutation exposes you to more danger, not any less, and you would behave with great diplomacy, ignore many affronts and cheerfully lose many arguements, and even endure minor attacks or a punch in the nose, because you would know the alternative is a gunfight where no one comes in second. You would know that if you used your weapon you would still be exceedingly fortunate to survive the outcome. If you survived, you would expect to be booked and jailed for murder, and would fully expect to fight an uphill $200,000 legal case, perhaps losing your house and car for the continued priviledge of drawing breath in this vale of tears. And you would fully expect the DA to ask you when on the stand: "Sir, please tell this Court WHY you were out at 3:30AM in a neighborhood with four open bars with a loaded gun - weren't you just LOOKING for a gunfight??" And he would have one helluva point for you to overcome with the jury. God help you if it was stoked with Glasers or other effective anti-personnel flesh-destroying fodder. And all of this, and much more, goes along with being a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN in the UNITED ****ING STATES and with A LICENSE TO CARRY A DEADLY WEAPON and ASHORE. Yet somehow, when a tyro steps aboard his yatch, he or she immediately thinks the world and its ways have been suspended in his or her particular case - or even that they SHOULD be (NOT). They can consider committing the exact same thing at an anchorage or dock IN A FOREIGN PORT no less, but it is "different" because the hoods, scumbags, and even the poor and hungry who are jealous of your wealth (and insulted by your arrogance and superior attitude too) are now called "pirates." Professional seagoing people learn by discipline and necessity to not draw attention to themselves, not to tempt nor annoy the locals by their appearance, demeanor or actions (and you may be a very offensive SOB or bitch when you THINK you are being a great guy), to keep the details of their vessel or her berth or anchorage private, to be winsome and friendly, to be humble, even generous within prudent limits, to be kind to the poor, to quietly promote goodwill, to avoid every kind of trouble or remote smell of it, to make valuable allies with key (or maybe even seamy) people on the waterfront, and to be EVER WATCHFUL DAY AND NIGHT. Without these things, robbers and other manner of evildoers board huge vessels more challenging than yours and cause much bigger problems than your little $20,000 or so robbery and some bruises. Obviously and knowing nothing of these essential SAFETY things, you and others seek to substitute them all with a firearm - "firearm insurance" in your vain imagination of how waterfronts, ports and indeed the whole rest of life, works. OR, you are on the "other side of the arguement" and you commit all of the same errors, vanities and inadequacies while characterizing the other camp as savage American gunslingers, which makes you no safer and only 2% less ignorant, but possibly 4x the twit. Do not be surprised if we eventually see real and strict education, training and internationally regulated licensing requirements for navigating little recreational vessels comparable to what the real ones require. It will be this kind of stupid **** that precipitates it, and if you keep it up, I hope it costs you two hundred thousand dollars, 4 years of formal fulltime training in an ugly uniform, and another 5 or 6 years of supervised blue water seatime to obtain one. By then, you'll have forgotten where you gun is. |
twoguns wrote:
Are there any better but legal options that could be followed? Leave your guns at home in the USA. Personal firearms are not permitted outside of the USA and you are likely to get you locked up as a terrorist or mercenary. In many countries a law enforcement officer who sees a firearm in the hands of a civilian will shoot first and ask questions later. Men in the rest of the world do not watch too many cowboy movies and are satisfied with the size of their dicks so they do not need dangerous toys. |
Ahoy The
DAMN, this thread is over-run with pacifists. No fun at all lecturing-to-the-choir.g Almost left an American sailboat I was crewing on when crew member said he'd draw his gun if someone tried to steal his camera! I rudely suggested MY life was worth a bit more than HIS camera.g Allan, the Canadian whimp |
Leave those firearms stateside or at least tell the border guard you
have them. He'll advise you what to do. Reply Don, I haven't been to Canada recently but when I was in the trucking business I was in Canada on a regular basis. At that time you could carry a rifle or shotgun with no problems. You had to declare it at the border and fill out a form. NO HANDGUNS were allowed whatsoever at that time with one exception: If you were a U.S. citizen heading to Alaska you could put the handgun in a sealed bag and carry with you. If a RCMP or other official checked and the seal was broken while in Canada you were in deep ****. I think since then the law has been changed and you have to arrange for the shipment of handguns from FFL dealers on the U.S. side of the border now. With the gun control people in firm control in Canada even the laws against rifles and shotguns are probably much stricter. Oh it is possible to get mugged in Canada also. I was standing in a line at a downtown Edmonton theater in the late 1970's and some guy attacked a lady that took a shortcut through an alley back to her car. Several of us standing in line for the movie heard her screams but other than a small cut on her arm from the knife he cut her purse strap with she was OK but it could have been a lot worse. Dennis |
It would have been more accurate to say that your life was worth a bit more
TO YOU, than his camera was TO YOU. Your value to him may have been a lot more than the camera, or possibly not depending on how well he liked you at the moment ;-) Don W. LEnfantduVent wrote: Ahoy The DAMN, this thread is over-run with pacifists. No fun at all lecturing-to-the-choir.g Almost left an American sailboat I was crewing on when crew member said he'd draw his gun if someone tried to steal his camera! I rudely suggested MY life was worth a bit more than HIS camera.g Allan, the Canadian whimp |
twoguns wrote:
Reply Don, I haven't been to Canada recently but when I was in the trucking business I was in Canada on a regular basis. At that time you could carry a rifle or shotgun with no problems. You had to declare it at the border and fill out a form. NO HANDGUNS were allowed whatsoever at that time with one exception: If you were a U.S. citizen heading to Alaska you could put the handgun in a sealed bag and carry with you. If a RCMP or other official checked and the seal was broken while in Canada you were in deep ****. I think since then the law has been changed and you have to arrange for the shipment of handguns from FFL dealers on the U.S. side of the border now. With the gun control people in firm control in Canada even the laws against rifles and shotguns are probably much stricter. Oh it is possible to get mugged in Canada also. I was standing in a line at a downtown Edmonton theater in the late 1970's and some guy attacked a lady that took a shortcut through an alley back to her car. Several of us standing in line for the movie heard her screams but other than a small cut on her arm from the knife he cut her purse strap with she was OK but it could have been a lot worse. Dennis Yes..you could even get mugged in Halifax. The last time an American carrier group visited, the Canadian Navy sent along information that the main street from our Naval Base to downtown was to be avoided..since it's populated by drug dealers, addicts, prostitutes etc. What a commotion arose from that area. You would think someone insulted their wives/daughters etc. ...and yes, it was good advice that I would give to any visitor who asked. Anywhere else...no guns required! |
Dennis,
Be very careful accepting advise from those that do not experience international sailing. Their advise is not worth the bit space it arrived on. Piracy today is actually a bigger problem than it has been at any time in history. There have been numerous articles written in the press about this problem for more than 20 years. In fact, there are very few safe cruising areas worldwide. The causes of the problem are numerous, but drug running is probably the most common with abject poverty being a close second. There are some undisputable facts like, if you encounter a problem, there will be no assistance. You cannot just dial 911. There is nobody home. You are on your own. You should carry multple levels of defence, like common sense, water cannons, mace and lastly firearms. All of those have zero value without adequate training and ongoing practise. That said, guns are like trucks and umbrellas, when you need one, you never need a little one. If you have something and do not need it, you can throw it away. If however, one is required and you don't have one, use your imagination. Please remember your enemy for firearms is not the person, it is his engine. Never allow strangers on board. Practise do diligence. Always maintain a deck watch. On a practical note, when carrying firearms and you are entering a foreign country always follow maritime rules. Do not initially find dock space. Drop your hook, go ashore in your dingy and inprocess. Fly the correct flags. Always declare your weapons and follow the advise of the authorities. Crimes are punishable. Following the law is not a crime. You might lose your guns, but not your freedom. Steve "twoguns" wrote in message oups.com... I have never been out of the U.S. coastal waters on a boat yet. Several of my friends and I are planning an extensive world cruise in two years. All of us have had extensive training in the use of firearms of all types and we all enjoy shooting sports as a hobby. We all like trapshooting so we will have at least 6 shotguns plus a few thousand rounds. Add in personal weapons and there will be an extensive arsenal on board. I know some countries absolutely prohibit personal firearms so we will have to take precautions in certain waters. Mexico is one of the most prohibitive I understand. Since we don't want to have an international incident what procedures are best in a situation like this? I have suggested we build a couple of watertight capsules for the weapons and ammunition. With GPS and the appropriate eqipment we could drop them overboard when entering restricted areas and then retrieve them later. Are there any better but legal options that could be followed? TIA, Dennis |
Men in the rest of the world do not watch too many cowboy movies and
are satisfied with the size of their dicks so they do not need dangerous toys. ************************************************** ************************************* The typical answer of a big prick who has no balls. Dennis |
On 23 Jun 2005 16:02:50 -0700, "twoguns"
wrote: If you are right Rhys I guess we will just have to take the slingshots and bows & arrows and leave the firearms at home. It is not a matter of feeling a need for protection it is a matter of pure fun. We all enjoy target shooting in one form or another. As far as know we won't be entering any pirate infested waters. Dennis I come from a family with both military firearms instructors and tactical squad police officers in it. I am neither squeamish nor afraid of guns: they are tools with a limited set of applications. I wouldn't take a running circular saw on a crowded bus, and I wouldn't take a rifle on a boat: the complications outweight the benefits and the "fun" in my estimation. Strangely enough, though, the "slingshots and bows and arrows" are not a bad idea, as they are quite legal in almost every country. Several pioneering cruisers used slingshots to send film canisters and small pieces of mail onto passing ships, and a bow and arrow could be used for fishing in some situations or for sending a messenger line to another boat over some distance. For self-defense, I like the 12-gauge flare gun, or maybe a crossbow. Realistically, though, if five guys with AK-47s board you, you would be rash to have a go at them with guns. Maybe a small missile to blast their boat before it got within machine gun range? R. |
Or as eight or ten somali's armed with AK-47s recently found out:
It is also rash to attempt to board a yacht piloted by a scared yachtie armed with a 12 guage loaded with 00 buck. Of course, it helps if you have a steel yacht so that their bullets are'nt just whizzing through the FRP. Don W. rhys wrote: For self-defense, I like the 12-gauge flare gun, or maybe a crossbow. Realistically, though, if five guys with AK-47s board you, you would be rash to have a go at them with guns. Maybe a small missile to blast their boat before it got within machine gun range? R. |
To Steve Lasardi and others with good advice,
Thanks. You can bet before we leave we will have a list of all the laws and regulations of any places we plan to visit plus a skipper familar with the ports we will visit. The dinghy idea is great. One of the group has a large Zodiac that we are planning on taking, it should be great for that purpose. Although all of us in the group have been in professions that required extensive training in firearms use we are recreational shooters more than anything else. Defensive use is just secondary. I have been looking for an excuse to buy a couple of the new Ruger Stainless steel handguns and rifles. Sal****er environment will be just the excuse to justify that expenditure. Dennis |
In article ,
"Steve Lusardi" wrote: Dennis, Be very careful accepting advise from those that do not experience international sailing. Their advise is not worth the bit space it arrived on. Piracy today is actually a bigger problem than it has been at any time in history. There have been numerous articles written in the press about this problem for more than 20 years. In fact, there are very few safe cruising areas worldwide. The causes of the problem are numerous, but drug running is probably the most common with abject poverty being a close second. There are some undisputable facts like, if you encounter a problem, there will be no assistance. You cannot just dial 911. There is nobody home. You are on your own. You should carry multple levels of defence, like common sense, water cannons, mace and lastly firearms. All of those have zero value without adequate training and ongoing practise. That said, guns are like trucks and umbrellas, when you need one, you never need a little one. If you have something and do not need it, you can throw it away. If however, one is required and you don't have one, use your imagination. Please remember your enemy for firearms is not the person, it is his engine. Never allow strangers on board. Practise do diligence. Always maintain a deck watch. On a practical note, when carrying firearms and you are entering a foreign country always follow maritime rules. Do not initially find dock space. Drop your hook, go ashore in your dingy and inprocess. Fly the correct flags. Always declare your weapons and follow the advise of the authorities. Crimes are punishable. Following the law is not a crime. You might lose your guns, but not your freedom. Steve Very good advice......I suspect that the above poster actually knows what a Customs Locker is, and what it is used for....... Every Commercial Vessel I have ever been on had one, and upon entering any Port of Call, it was used, and secured, as per International Convention. If only more folks were more knowledgeable about such things, we wouldn't be subjected to "Hip Deep Bull****" when this subject arises..... Me one who has sailed, and lived to tell the tales...... |
In article .com,
"twoguns" wrote: Leave those firearms stateside or at least tell the border guard you have them. He'll advise you what to do. Reply Don, I haven't been to Canada recently but when I was in the trucking business I was in Canada on a regular basis. At that time you could carry a rifle or shotgun with no problems. You had to declare it at the border and fill out a form. NO HANDGUNS were allowed whatsoever at that time with one exception: If you were a U.S. citizen heading to Alaska you could put the handgun in a sealed bag and carry with you. If a RCMP or other official checked and the seal was broken while in Canada you were in deep ****. I think since then the law has been changed and you have to arrange for the shipment of handguns from FFL dealers on the U.S. side of the border now. With the gun control people in firm control in Canada even the laws against rifles and shotguns are probably much stricter. Oh it is possible to get mugged in Canada also. I was standing in a line at a downtown Edmonton theater in the late 1970's and some guy attacked a lady that took a shortcut through an alley back to her car. Several of us standing in line for the movie heard her screams but other than a small cut on her arm from the knife he cut her purse strap with she was OK but it could have been a lot worse. Dennis Passage on water has totally different Laws than passage via Land. There are international conventions that govern ships and Ports of Call. Folks ought not to confuse the two. Me |
In article ,
Don White wrote: twoguns wrote: Reply Don, I haven't been to Canada recently but when I was in the trucking business I was in Canada on a regular basis. At that time you could carry a rifle or shotgun with no problems. You had to declare it at the border and fill out a form. NO HANDGUNS were allowed whatsoever at that time with one exception: If you were a U.S. citizen heading to Alaska you could put the handgun in a sealed bag and carry with you. If a RCMP or other official checked and the seal was broken while in Canada you were in deep ****. I think since then the law has been changed and you have to arrange for the shipment of handguns from FFL dealers on the U.S. side of the border now. With the gun control people in firm control in Canada even the laws against rifles and shotguns are probably much stricter. Oh it is possible to get mugged in Canada also. I was standing in a line at a downtown Edmonton theater in the late 1970's and some guy attacked a lady that took a shortcut through an alley back to her car. Several of us standing in line for the movie heard her screams but other than a small cut on her arm from the knife he cut her purse strap with she was OK but it could have been a lot worse. Dennis Yes..you could even get mugged in Halifax. The last time an American carrier group visited, the Canadian Navy sent along information that the main street from our Naval Base to downtown was to be avoided..since it's populated by drug dealers, addicts, prostitutes etc. What a commotion arose from that area. You would think someone insulted their wives/daughters etc. ...and yes, it was good advice that I would give to any visitor who asked. Anywhere else...no guns required! and some folks actually believe that that Aircraft Carrier didn't have any guns aboard, while making the visit........ Not the case at all.. but that said, all those firearms were, either issued to internal Security Forces, On duty, or secured in the armory under Customs Seal... This by International Convention...... Me -- Bruce (semiretired powderman & exFCC Field Inspector for Southeastern Alaska) add a 2 before @ Bruce Gordon * Debora Gordon R.N. Bruce's Trading Post P.O. Box EXI Excursion Inlet South Juneau, Alaska 99850 Excursion Inlet, Alaska 99850 www.btpost.net www.99850.net |
In article ,
Don W wrote: It would have been more accurate to say that your life was worth a bit more TO YOU, than his camera was TO YOU. Your value to him may have been a lot more than the camera, or possibly not depending on how well he liked you at the moment ;-) Don W. Kind of like two guys out walking, and encountering a BIG Bear..... Both started running, but one tripped the other, and as he kept going stated, that he only had to faster than his companion........ Me |
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:24:44 -0400, Steven Shelikoff
wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:30:34 +0700, wrote: [...] You should be aware that in some countries, Singapore and Malaysia, for example, the penalty for possession of a firearm or ammunition is death and before you get any idea that being a U.S. citizen would protect you if you were to be caught you should be advised that both Singapore and Malaysia have hung quite a number of foreigners from the west. Do you have any cites of them hanging a US citizen for possession of a firearm? You'd think we would have heard of something like that on the news but it doesn't ring a bell. Last thing I remember was when they whipped that boy for drunken behaviour or spitting or something like that. Steve The boy, a US citizen, was 16 and was convicted of graffiti in a Singapore court. He received a whipping with a rattan cane on the bare behind - a standard punishment. Draconian it may seem, but we never saw any graffiti between Australia and Greece. We knew we were back in the civilised world when we saw the tagging on the Greek trains. Oh, I forgot the small "f***k bush" tag on the wall of an Ottoman castle on the hill above Aden in Yemen. I do not have the figures for last year but do know that Singapore hanged 273 foreign nationals in 2003 regardless of country of origin. FWIW, the last time that anyone was flogged in an Australian prison was in 1953 - not that long ago. Thrity years ago, as a former high school teacher in New Zealand, I was able to cane boys on the rear end so long as I did not draw blood - it was very common in some schools, some teachers caning someone every day. |
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Subject
Cut to the chase. If you want fire arms, then be prepared to do the following: Have suitable munitions on board to sink any vessel that is within 300 yards. You make no attempt to warn an approaching vessel, you simply sink the SOB. When the vessel sinks, approach and kill anybody still alive. Think of it as shooting fish in a barrel. Witnesses are such messy things. Leave when the task is complete. If you find the above repulsive, and you should IMHO, leave the firearms at home and learn to get along with the rest of the world. Lew |
Peter Hendra wrote:
Cruising by small vessel is already getting more and more difficult and regulated - most regulations being set in place are because of someone's stupidity or misfortune. I once had a hard time being given port clearance to leave Turkey as I did,t have any certificate of competency to show the harbourmaster's assistant - my passport and log showing where I had sailed from were of no avail. Many ports and marinas in Europe require both a certificate of competency as well as third party insurance - what next. I can see that. You wouldn't believe the number of adventurers/wackos who want to leave this area to paddle/row/sail the smallest vessels across the Atlantic. Our coast guard usually has to go and rescue them before they get out of our jurisdiction. |
Peter Hendra wrote:
The boy, a US citizen, was 16 and was convicted of graffiti in a Singapore court. He received a whipping with a rattan cane on the bare behind - a standard punishment. Draconian it may seem, but we never saw any graffiti between Australia and Greece. We knew we were back in the civilised world when we saw the tagging on the Greek trains. Oh, I forgot the small "f***k bush" tag on the wall of an Ottoman castle on the hill above Aden in Yemen. I do not have the figures for last year but do know that Singapore hanged 273 foreign nationals in 2003 regardless of country of origin. FWIW, the last time that anyone was flogged in an Australian prison was in 1953 - not that long ago. Thrity years ago, as a former high school teacher in New Zealand, I was able to cane boys on the rear end so long as I did not draw blood - it was very common in some schools, some teachers caning someone every day. Here it was the leather 'strap' until the late '60s. Sometimes it didn't take much for the teacher to send you to the cloakroom and administer 5 or 10 whacks to each hand. By junior high the female teachers couldn't hurt you much, but a strong male teacher could make it sting. |
WaIIy wrote:
Is your brain engaged? THink so. Walk around South Chicago some night at 3:00 AM and just say "Can't we just get along?" Been there, done that, NBD. People don't f**k with me. SFWIW, If I'm walking down the street, I'd just as soon pick up a brick and split your head open as say "Hello". It is strictly a matter of attitude. Lew |
It could've been a Hasselblad or a Leica, yes? Besides, the guy said
he'd draw his gun - not use it - he may have meant charcoal sketching it for sale in port. Paranoid Canadians! No wonder they don't get to carry guns. ;-) Don W wrote: It would have been more accurate to say that your life was worth a bit more TO YOU, than his camera was TO YOU. Your value to him may have been a lot more than the camera, or possibly not depending on how well he liked you at the moment ;-) |
Don White wrote in
: Here it was the leather 'strap' until the late '60s. Sometimes it didn't take much for the teacher to send you to the cloakroom and administer 5 or 10 whacks to each hand. By junior high the female teachers couldn't hurt you much, but a strong male teacher could make it sting. Mrs. Hubert, my 6th Grade teacher, used the metal drawing edge of an 18" wooden ruler on all our fingers. She'd hit it so hard you'd bleed. I'll never forget her abuse. -- Larry You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and you're outlined in chalk. |
I wonder if the different attitude to carrying guns is mainly
cultural. US citizens with their history of the war of independence and the reliance on minutemen and a citizen army with often their own weapons have a different attitude than say, New Zealanders whose police do not carry guns. They can carry a baton and had a special trouser pocket for doing so but most did not wish to be encumbered by its weight. N.Z. has a law that compels any citizen to come to the aid of a policeman if he calls for help or if he is being attacked. The penalty for not doing so is a possible prison term. We used ex WW2 .303 calibre rifles as kids for shooting pigs, deer and goats in our bush/forests which are classed as pests and it was relatively easy to get a licence for a rifle once you turned 16 but definitely not for handguns or automatics. Just a thought - not |
If you come to Australia, the Customs people will ask if you have firearms aboard. Say yes and it's no drama, they'll take them off of you and when you clear out of the country, they'll return them. I believe they'll even transport them from your port of arrival to your port of departure if given sufficient notice. I'd suggest having the guns in lockable cases, then lock them in and have the Customs dudes put a seal on when they take them away. Unless you have an Australian firearms licence, you won't get to keep them in your possession. You do *not* need firearms for defence against pirates in Australian waters. Assuming you have a bonded locker aboard, I dunno. For a pleasure vessel, I suspect they'd still take the guns. Maybe not the ammo if it was locked up with a Customs seal. Ask. I've owned guns all my life and legally I can carry guns on my boat, in Australian waters, as I have a licence. I think that sailing with them may well be more hassle than it's worth, if you're going foreign, and probably wouldn't bother. You decide. The Rugers are nice toys but if you bring them here and don't declare them, you'll probably lose them, the boat, go to jail and get deported. Much bigger risk than piracy, IMO. PDW In article .com, twoguns wrote: To Steve Lasardi and others with good advice, Thanks. You can bet before we leave we will have a list of all the laws and regulations of any places we plan to visit plus a skipper familar with the ports we will visit. The dinghy idea is great. One of the group has a large Zodiac that we are planning on taking, it should be great for that purpose. Although all of us in the group have been in professions that required extensive training in firearms use we are recreational shooters more than anything else. Defensive use is just secondary. I have been looking for an excuse to buy a couple of the new Ruger Stainless steel handguns and rifles. Sal****er environment will be just the excuse to justify that expenditure. Dennis |
On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:28:13 -0400, Steven Shelikoff
wrote: I do not have the figures for last year but do know that Singapore hanged 273 foreign nationals in 2003 regardless of country of origin. Yeah, but for what? Maybe they were convicted of murder or some other serious crime. Steve I don't have the figures but do know that some were for murder but most were hanged for drug smuggling or drug dealing as well as the possession of firearms. If one really wishes, one may attend a hanging at Changi Gaol in Singapore where they are carried out on Friday mornings. It should be borne in mind that both Singapore and Malaysia, though independent, adhere firmly to the British based justice system. In Malaysia, if there is no local precedent, one may be chosen from either Britain, Australia, New Zealand or India. As in Indonesia there are lengthy appeal proceedures but, unlike some states in the USA (this is not a criticism so don't feel the need to label me a yank basher), there is no lengthy on again- off again many years death row habitation of those wo have been sentenced to death. Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore are currently exploring adding engaging in child prostitution or the smuggling of children for the sex trade as offences for which the death penalty may be applied. May sound draconian to some, and, coming from a country with no death penalty, am not sure how I feel myself. The sight of frightened young girls, bought for US$300 in Cambodia, intercepted on the way to the brothels is rather disturbing to say the least. They generally don't live to adulthood. Peter H |
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 07:41:00 +1000, Peter Hendra wrote: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:28:13 -0400, Steven Shelikoff wrote: I do not have the figures for last year but do know that Singapore hanged 273 foreign nationals in 2003 regardless of country of origin. Yeah, but for what? Maybe they were convicted of murder or some other serious crime. Steve I don't have the figures but do know that some were for murder but most were hanged for drug smuggling or drug dealing as well as the possession of firearms. [...] sight of frightened young girls, bought for US$300 in Cambodia, intercepted on the way to the brothels is rather disturbing to say the least. They generally don't live to adulthood. These are all other offenses in addition to possesing a firearm. Drug smuggling, child sex slavery, murder, etc. What I'd like to see is a case where they've hung a US citizen who's only offense was possesion of a firearm. Steve Steve, do you really mean to say that such a thing would make you happy? Terry K |
"Steven Shelikoff" wrote
So I'd like to know if the person who made the implication above can actually back it up with a case. Either way, (they have hung a US citizen for possession of a firearm or ammunition or they never have done such a thing) it's good information to know. Why? I wouldn't take a gun or ammo there because I wouldn't want to be the first - or even put up with the hassle. I'll just stay away (no problem for me) or, if I had to go there I simply give the gun/ammo to Davy Jones before entering their territory. A decent pump shotgun and a box of ammo are not expensive enough to risk jail let alone death and I wouldn't expose an expensive gun to the sea anyway. BTW I habitually carry at home (USA). |
Vito wrote:
"Steven Shelikoff" wrote So I'd like to know if the person who made the implication above can actually back it up with a case. Either way, (they have hung a US citizen for possession of a firearm or ammunition or they never have done such a thing) it's good information to know. Why? I wouldn't take a gun or ammo there because I wouldn't want to be the first - or even put up with the hassle. I'll just stay away (no problem for me) or, if I had to go there I simply give the gun/ammo to Davy Jones before entering their territory. A decent pump shotgun and a box of ammo are not expensive enough to risk jail let alone death and I wouldn't expose an expensive gun to the sea anyway. BTW I habitually carry at home (USA). I wouldn't take a gun there either and I don't carry at home (USA) even though I have a CCW. However, as to why I'd like to know, I'm just the type of person who likes to discover truth and information for it's own sake. You might not be that type of person, and that's fine. When someone makes an assertion or implication that interests me, I like to dig deeper and find out if it's actually true and not just accept it prima facia. So that's why. Steve |
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:41:00 +0100, Peter Wiley
wrote: In article , Vito wrote: "Steven Shelikoff" wrote So I'd like to know if the person who made the implication above can actually back it up with a case. Either way, (they have hung a US citizen for possession of a firearm or ammunition or they never have done such a thing) it's good information to know. Why? I wouldn't take a gun or ammo there because I wouldn't want to be the first - or even put up with the hassle. I'll just stay away (no problem for me) or, if I had to go there I simply give the gun/ammo to Davy Jones before entering their territory. A decent pump shotgun and a box of ammo are not expensive enough to risk jail let alone death and I wouldn't expose an expensive gun to the sea anyway. BTW I habitually carry at home (USA). You really aren't thinking this through. Singapore doesn't really care if you have a firearm aboard. They're not going to hang you for that, or arrest you, or fine you. They only care if you have a firearm aboard AND DON'T DECLARE IT TO CUSTOMS. Understand the difference? You clear in, declare it, they take it away while you're in port, you clear out, they return it & off you go. I really can't see what the big deal is. It's not like you need a gun there, Singapore is a lot safer than the USA. I just don't understand why you guys seem to have such a conceptual difficulty with filling in a Customs declaration form accurately. Do you ever go *anywhere* outside of the USA? Try bringing certain prescription drugs into the USA sometimes even with a prescription from an overseas medical practitioner. Don't ever try doing it without a script. Also, AFAIK, the USA is the only country on the planet which asserts the right to confiscate foreign vessels in transit if they suspect the vessel will visit Cuba. You guys have this **** and you're worried about the consequences of failing to fill out a Customs form accurately? Get a grip. Now Indonesia - if you declare a gun & they take it away, it might get 'lost' and you'll never see it again. BFD. If you *don't* declare it and dump it over the side instead, as suggested above, guess what? You've converted the *possible* loss of a firearm into the *certain* loss of it. How bright is that? PDW Fun post! It's at this point that the die-hards start laying plans for a 5 ft PVC sewer section with an o-ring screw on end cap, and judicious weighting, to drape in the water with their precious stuff. Brian Whatcott Altus, OK |
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