Jere Lull wrote:

On the boats I've sailed with aft-lead halyards, I invariably discovered
it was faster and less effort to haul the sail most of the way up right
at the mast. On some boats, it seemed to take 5 minutes to get the sail
up because of the drag.

It's always a compromise. I prefer the sail set I get with straight slab
reefing though it requires a couple of minutes at the mast. A single
line reef led back also puts considerably different strains on the
gooseneck than it was designed for.
SNIP

This is a bit of a religious debate but let me wade in anyway.

My boat (Paceship 26) is set up for short handed sailing with all lines
led to the cockpit. Works well for me when I'm out with my kids. Other
setups will work better for other folks

The drag issue you mention is easily mitigated by using the right
hardware when the system is set up.

As for the reefing line putting strains on the gooseneck that it was
not designed for, I respectfully submit that a boomvang will put more
strain on a gooseneck, with roughly similar vectors than a reefing line
ever will.

Cheers

Matt

I'm kind of surprised at the religious tone this debate has taken on.
If I were sailing as you do, with kids who are guests along for the
ride, or shorthanded, I would rig the boat as you have. My current
needs and purposes are different.

What I find weird is the idea that one arrangement is responsible and
sensible and the other negligent and foolish. If that were true,
sailing itself would be negligent and foolish.

--

Roger Long



wrote in message
ups.com...


Jere Lull wrote:

On the boats I've sailed with aft-lead halyards, I invariably
discovered
it was faster and less effort to haul the sail most of the way up
right
at the mast. On some boats, it seemed to take 5 minutes to get the
sail
up because of the drag.

It's always a compromise. I prefer the sail set I get with straight
slab
reefing though it requires a couple of minutes at the mast. A
single
line reef led back also puts considerably different strains on the
gooseneck than it was designed for.
SNIP

This is a bit of a religious debate but let me wade in anyway.

My boat (Paceship 26) is set up for short handed sailing with all
lines
led to the cockpit. Works well for me when I'm out with my kids.
Other
setups will work better for other folks

The drag issue you mention is easily mitigated by using the right
hardware when the system is set up.

As for the reefing line putting strains on the gooseneck that it was
not designed for, I respectfully submit that a boomvang will put
more
strain on a gooseneck, with roughly similar vectors than a reefing
line
ever will.

Cheers

Matt

Roger:

I also regret the tone, sorry about that.

David

Roger

Agreed. Different setups will work for different needs and
preferences. Let's just all go for a sail and have a good time.

Sorry if my tone was a bit off.

Cheers

Matt

While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed
felt compelled to write:

Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of
you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and
going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in
a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke.

You've never seen me rant. I said I prefer to reef from the mast base.
I said I have seen folk who apparently never go forward struggle when
trying to turn across weather to allow them to reef or drop sail. As
it happens, I don't actually care whether you agree with me or not;
I'm capable of accepting your differing opinion.

Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails
is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the
foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing
the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller
furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do
a lot more sailing. especially single handed.

I wasn't arguing against furlers, but thanks for the elucidation. I
was talking about changing sail or removing from a furler in a blow. I
see how wrestling a frenzied, whipping headsail to the deck wouldn't
be a problem for you, but moving to the mast base is a terrifying,
life-threatening experience. Frankly, whilst we'd all rather be
reaching in 15kn on a calm sea from the cockpit; it isn't always
possible.

In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion
on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the
control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the
cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top.

I'm sorry that I can't follow how running the halyards back to the
cockpit somehow mitigates a broach, but I did read that thread. From
memory it was from someone with little experience who got caught out
by a 30kt bullet. The location of the halyards would have hardly
compensated for their lack of experience, in what is a reatively
routine occurance. In fact from memory I think they had problems
trying to round up, and getting blown off / down when stalled. Not a
problem if you set up to be able to reef running downwind. How do you
reef from the cockpit running downwind, yourself?

Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it
the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the
smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for
him, not what seems "salty".

I'm not much given to bull****, that was my opinion. On my boat, I
would never be able to reef downwind without going to the mast, so if
I have to go to the mast to reef, I may as well terminate the halyards
there. If I tried to round up, the apparent wind would likely take my
rig straight down, so I have to rig to reef downwind if necessary.

Perhaps you are having a bad day? I'll leave it at that.

Ian

Ian George wrote:
While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed
felt compelled to write:


Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of
you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and
going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in
a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke.


You've never seen me rant. I said I prefer to reef from the mast base.
I said I have seen folk who apparently never go forward struggle when
trying to turn across weather to allow them to reef or drop sail. As
it happens, I don't actually care whether you agree with me or not;
I'm capable of accepting your differing opinion.


Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails
is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the
foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing
the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller
furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do
a lot more sailing. especially single handed.


I wasn't arguing against furlers, but thanks for the elucidation. I
was talking about changing sail or removing from a furler in a blow. I
see how wrestling a frenzied, whipping headsail to the deck wouldn't
be a problem for you, but moving to the mast base is a terrifying,
life-threatening experience. Frankly, whilst we'd all rather be
reaching in 15kn on a calm sea from the cockpit; it isn't always
possible.


In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion
on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the
control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the
cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top.


I'm sorry that I can't follow how running the halyards back to the
cockpit somehow mitigates a broach, but I did read that thread. From
memory it was from someone with little experience who got caught out
by a 30kt bullet. The location of the halyards would have hardly
compensated for their lack of experience, in what is a reatively
routine occurance. In fact from memory I think they had problems
trying to round up, and getting blown off / down when stalled. Not a
problem if you set up to be able to reef running downwind. How do you
reef from the cockpit running downwind, yourself?


Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it
the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the
smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for
him, not what seems "salty".


I'm not much given to bull****, that was my opinion. On my boat, I
would never be able to reef downwind without going to the mast, so if
I have to go to the mast to reef, I may as well terminate the halyards
there. If I tried to round up, the apparent wind would likely take my
rig straight down, so I have to rig to reef downwind if necessary.

Perhaps you are having a bad day? I'll leave it at that.

Ian

Ian, if you think you are going to reef while running when you need
to, you are in for a shock.

You just can't do it.

You must round up and come head to wind, or you will not get the
main down. It will hang on the spreaders, and jam in the sail
track. Then, you will broach. That's basic sailing. To broach means
to get spun around until you are head to wind, like it or not. It
often involves dipping the boom, possibly breaking it, and can be so
violent it fills the cockpit with water, even capsizing you. Which
means you sink on the spot in a keelboat.

The secret to reefing safely is to reef before you need to. If you
wait too long, you enter a situation where, as old salts say "The
sea doesn't give a damn." If the situation continues to
deteriorate, you will die.

If you find yourself out there, you will only be able to get the jib
down, if you don't slide off the fore deck. If it's BAD, and your
furler jams, you will not be able to do anything, except hope the
damn thing flogs itself to death and tatters before you drown. When
the jib is gone, the main will spin you around wether you want it to
or not, possibly capsizing you if you are too silly to ease the
sheet as far as it can go without losing the end to the breeze, and
then, if you don't take water and sink, you will find yourself head
to wind, in irons, going backward, and will have about two seconds
to get the main reduced, or down altogether, before you dosi-do or
gybe around again and again and again, until the main is in tatters,
if you are lucky enough to see it happen, you might well be watching
that while being trolled for bait, on the end of your lifeline.

Unless you have the crew and the skill and the strength to steer a
close reach or in reverse and can keep the head to wind long enough
to reef as you wish you had practiced and perfected when it was
calmer, if you are alone, you could well die. Pray the boom takes
you, rather than drown.

I would never again sail without a certain method of getting the jib
down. I can no longer trust a furler, nor do I want to sail with a
baggy jib. I almost lost the mate overside in an unexpectedly rough
day, when all we could hope to do do was pull the bloody genoa down
on deck from the foredeck. A downhaul is now permanent, and has
never failed to do the deed. All large sails foreward will be set so
a knife can let it go off to sail heavan by itself. If it is so calm
I can't get anywhere without the genny I don't have any more, I will
either turn on Mr. Iron Oars, or start fishing.

Sailing is not for wussies who don't take responsibility for their
own survival, and keep an eye out for weather.

Been there, done that! Seen that at a distance and was near tears
myself the day we went down to the government wharf near Cobourg,
Ont. 20 odd years ago to watch the waves and witnessed such a
potential death dance not a mile offshore in a 10 minute squall.
After a while, two pansy boys got the boat to the dock on the
engine, literally crying buckets of tears and screaming at each
other every inch of the way, got off the boat, called for the police
and two taxis, and were going to let it drift away, cursing horribly
and swearing they would never sail again. It was their first day of
sailing. They were at the face slapping stage. We grabbed their
dockline. We gathered that they had just taken possession of their
dream palace. They sold the boat, I think a brand new Hunter 25 with
a diesel, and a great big knot of tatted rags in the cockpit and on
deck, on the spot to a guy on the dock with a cheque book for 5
thousand dollars. I wish I had spoken first.

All your theory won't help a bit.

Your tears won't even get you wet, and the sea will ignore your call
for mommy.

Yes, I have stupidly set sail into 50 knots of wind, and sailed off
the sheltered dock, but I just didn't know how lucky I would be to
get back home. That was 30 years ago, in Calandar bay, lake
Ni****ing, another surprising fresh water sea.

Ah, but what joy we have had, since!

Terry K

While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed Terry Spragg
felt compelled to write:

Ian, if you think you are going to reef while running when you need
to, you are in for a shock.

You just can't do it.

Well, depends what you mean by when you need to, I suppose. I sail a
trimaran and when it is just past time to reef (to gust speed, rather
than aggregate speed) reefing down-wind is preferable to straining the
crap out of the rig chasing the higher apparent wind in rounding up.

Usually I put in a first reef when gusts regularly exceed 22kn, and so
in average of 14-15. Most keelboats are breaking out the spinnakers,
but a big roachy main is starting to think about pushing the nose in
on a multi. Nothing to stop us flying a kite after the main has been
powered down, after all.

This type of sailing makes it is easy to misjudge the true wind speed
on a run, and there are problems with the higher apparent wind when
coming about, in fact it is preferable to gybe down a track rather
than round and tack a multihull through this type of scenario, because
the higher boatspeed carried in to the stronger breeze can jump you
suddenly to a very sedate apparent condition at 15kts reaching off in
22kts of breeze, to rounding up into a hair straightening 30+ kts of
apparent wind despite halving that boat speed.

You must round up and come head to wind, or you will not get the
main down. It will hang on the spreaders, and jam in the sail
track. Then, you will broach. That's basic sailing. To broach means
to get spun around until you are head to wind, like it or not. It
often involves dipping the boom, possibly breaking it, and can be so
violent it fills the cockpit with water, even capsizing you. Which
means you sink on the spot in a keelboat.

Well, I reef well before we hit a gale, and would never try this in
heavy conditions, but as long as you have the sea room to bear away
quickly and have a cunningham rigged through a block, believe it or
not, we can and do reef quite easily downwind. It's a two man
operation though, one at the mast on the halyard, reef lines and
downhaul, one to helm off and dump the sheet to provide the
opportunity of a zero apparent wind interval..

The secret to reefing safely is to reef before you need to. If you
wait too long, you enter a situation where, as old salts say "The
sea doesn't give a damn." If the situation continues to
deteriorate, you will die.

Of course. And this is made worse with the higher lateral stability of
a multihull, at 8.5m of beam the wind can't easily knock you down and
settles for just taking the rig off. Sorry to have to agree with you,
but I am an absolute advocate of reefing early.

If you find yourself out there, you will only be able to get the jib
down, if you don't slide off the fore deck. If it's BAD, and your
furler jams, you will not be able to do anything, except hope the
damn thing flogs itself to death and tatters before you drown. When
the jib is gone, the main will spin you around wether you want it to
or not, possibly capsizing you if you are too silly to ease the
sheet as far as it can go without losing the end to the breeze, and
then, if you don't take water and sink, you will find yourself head
to wind, in irons, going backward, and will have about two seconds
to get the main reduced, or down altogether, before you dosi-do or
gybe around again and again and again, until the main is in tatters,
if you are lucky enough to see it happen, you might well be watching
that while being trolled for bait, on the end of your lifeline.

Well, I was advocating pulling down the sail from the furler when you
need to, rather than awaiting the rather dire circumstances that
inspire the consequnces you outline above. We carry a storm jib and
rig to a temporary cutter stay in those conditions, fortunately I've
never felt the need to go out and drop that. I have, however, been
caught by a furler unravelling a headsail in a breeze, with all its
attendant ugliness. This is why I prefer to drop the headsail from the
furler, well before the excrement and oscillator collide, and why I
advocate leaving the comfort of the cockpit to do so.

As for drowning and sinking, thanks for your concern, but there are
some advantages to not having a half ton of lead bolted to the bottom,
principal amongst which is making it difficult (though far from
impossible) to sink. Yes, I've flipped, but not my own boat and whilst
racing rather than cruising.

Unless you have the crew and the skill and the strength to steer a
close reach or in reverse and can keep the head to wind long enough
to reef as you wish you had practiced and perfected when it was
calmer, if you are alone, you could well die. Pray the boom takes
you, rather than drown.

I wasn't advocating this procedure in a hurricane, Terry. It is useful
when sailing down a steepish following sea, though, and far preferable
to turning across such a sea (and its consequent invitation to
broach), often the acceleration down the waves will provide the zero
wind opportunity to downhaul without even bearing off. This works on
monohulls too, I first learned it on a Ross 930, 25 years ago in the
Hauraki Gulf. Also learned how to cut away rigging quickly after doing
2 rigs in three races whilst learning a bit about apparent wind and
the hazards of having a Stewart 34 gybe their boom through your
windward stay. A new language was learned that day, by comparison to
which Tourette's is a mild and genteel form of communication.

I would never again sail without a certain method of getting the jib
down. I can no longer trust a furler, nor do I want to sail with a
baggy jib. I almost lost the mate overside in an unexpectedly rough
day, when all we could hope to do do was pull the bloody genoa down
on deck from the foredeck. A downhaul is now permanent, and has
never failed to do the deed. All large sails foreward will be set so
a knife can let it go off to sail heavan by itself. If it is so calm
I can't get anywhere without the genny I don't have any more, I will
either turn on Mr. Iron Oars, or start fishing.

I agree with that, sorry. I've just finished a substantial refit on
our boat, and replaced an old furler that had its own halyards and
downhaul rigged in the unit, for a far more expensive and modern one
which does not. I am working out a method for running a downhaul from
the slide car over the weekend. I am concerned that the distance
between the deck and the extrusion is not conducive to a forcing of
the sail down from the top. Really, the rationale behind these units
has become a 'one sail fits all' solution, not really designed to
facilitate changes. I seriously considered returning to hank-ons, for
three seconds. Any tips?

Sailing is not for wussies who don't take responsibility for their
own survival, and keep an eye out for weather.

Hardly the material for a tattoo, perhaps an epitaph?

Been there, done that! Seen that at a distance and was near tears
myself the day we went down to the government wharf near Cobourg,
Ont. 20 odd years ago to watch the waves and witnessed such a
potential death dance not a mile offshore in a 10 minute squall.
After a while, two pansy boys got the boat to the dock on the
engine, literally crying buckets of tears and screaming at each
other every inch of the way, got off the boat, called for the police
and two taxis, and were going to let it drift away, cursing horribly
and swearing they would never sail again. It was their first day of
sailing. They were at the face slapping stage. We grabbed their
dockline. We gathered that they had just taken possession of their
dream palace. They sold the boat, I think a brand new Hunter 25 with
a diesel, and a great big knot of tatted rags in the cockpit and on
deck, on the spot to a guy on the dock with a cheque book for 5
thousand dollars. I wish I had spoken first.

Well, I was fortunate to do all my terror, crying and a fair bit of
incidental, unscheduled swimming in sailing dinghies from the age of
eight, but have wailed nonetheless. Most notably when caught by my
mother not only 'sailing out of the bay' but sailing my 11' Arrow
class dinghy across the Tiri channel from Okoromai bay to Rangitoto
Island and back. By some miracle I survived the trip, but barely
survived my mothers wrath upon my successful return (the latter part
of the trip having been observed by binoculars from shore).

All your theory won't help a bit.

It helps some, I'd hate to forget all of it. More beneficial is the
experience to know when it might help, and when to deploy the
parachute and retire, as gracefully as blind panic allows, below.

Your tears won't even get you wet, and the sea will ignore your call
for mommy.

Refer above. I'd rather the sea take me than face mommy again, even
though she is nearly 80 now.

Yes, I have stupidly set sail into 50 knots of wind, and sailed off
the sheltered dock, but I just didn't know how lucky I would be to
get back home. That was 30 years ago, in Calandar bay, lake
Ni****ing, another surprising fresh water sea.

Well those cruising grounds are as foreign to me as Kawau, Okoromai,
Rangitoto and Hauraki Gulf most likely are to you. Once had to cleave
off a terrifying lee shore almost the length of the Coromandel
peninsula, took all day to make about five miles to weather, then much
later collapsing, utterly buggered into an unknown bay in a small
Island by torchlight at midnight. Woke to the crunch of the boat going
over at low tide (mono's, back then), simply too tired to do other
than reset the pillow, and was fortunate to wake floating.

That weather came out of nothing but the flattest calm, in the time it
took to go below and wash the breakfast dishes I returned to look at a
horizon of approaching whitecaps and 40kt winds. Lost a hat getting
the pick out, and the #1 jib shredded five minutes later. Hank ons,
took 40 minutes to get a new headsail up (seemed like 4 hours).

Ah, but what joy we have had, since!

That's the fun of it, all right. My wife still wont accept (over 20
years later) that we were never in serious danger.

Ian

Roger Long wrote:
Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor?

Yes.

Do you think that somebody who deliberately rigs his boat to be more
difficult to handle in all respects, and less safe, can be considered a
competent sailor?

DSK

Do you think someone who deliberately outfits his boat with highly
tensioned lines, swinging metal tubes, and uses them to propel the
boat in a way which often restricts the course it can sail, hampers
emergency maneuvers such as picking up people who fall in the water,
and involves an enormous amount of extra effort and exposure to the
elements that can lead to operator fatigue an resultant errors in
judgement and navigation could possibly be considered a competent
seaman?

--

Roger Long



"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Roger Long wrote:
Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be
considered a competent sailor?

Yes.

Do you think that somebody who deliberately rigs his boat to be more
difficult to handle in all respects, and less safe, can be
considered a competent sailor?

DSK

Roger Long wrote:
Do you think someone who deliberately outfits his boat with highly
tensioned lines, swinging metal tubes, and uses them to propel the
boat in a way which often restricts the course it can sail, hampers
emergency maneuvers such as picking up people who fall in the water,
and involves an enormous amount of extra effort and exposure to the
elements that can lead to operator fatigue an resultant errors in
judgement and navigation could possibly be considered a competent
seaman?


Of course not. That's why the gov't is taking steps to forbid sailing

The key point, of course, is what sort of rigging & gear is most desired
by the particular sailor in question, and perhaps doubly key is whether
or not he has the skills to use his chosen rig to best effect.

A lot of people clutter up their boats with stuff I wouldn't have if
given it for free; OTOH some of the things I like and have found most
useful can be considered awful by others. For example, recent discussion
of cotter rings... I've used them for years and never known one to fail.
Quite a few people posted otherwise... I'm not saying they're wrong,
just that *I* will continue to use them & rely on them.

Solid boom vangs, halyards & reef lines led aft, boom gallows, lazy
jacks, all of it can be very utlitarian or it can be useless deck
clutter. But I really don't think it's necessary to have a lot of
experience clambering around on bowsprits... or aloft in square
riggers... or swarming up the hoops of a gaff... to be a competent
seaman. Nor does one need to know how to swing a lead line, apply tallow
to deadeyes, sling a harpoon, etc etc.

I do happen to think that the skills of sailing small tippy high
performance centerboard dinghies are very useful, but that's just
because every weekend I see 'cruising only' sailors who obviously lack
some of those skills.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King