Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older
"dangerous" boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all
cockpit control and it made sense for the retired couple who sailed
this boat by themselves. I'm not sure about the danger though.

The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of
sailing were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when
you stand up to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of
handholds and they are at and above your center of gravity. The
shrouds are between you and the ocean and there is this big solid
thing you can lean against.

On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space.
It's the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her
butt in the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the
flailing arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a
lot of space in a cockpit.

--

Roger Long




wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea
now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances
are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use
engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real
seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the
lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I
was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month
when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who
was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line
and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older "dangerous"
boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all cockpit control and
it made sense for the retired couple who sailed this boat by themselves.
I'm not sure about the danger though.

The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of sailing
were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when you stand up
to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of handholds and they
are at and above your center of gravity. The shrouds are between you and
the ocean and there is this big solid thing you can lean against.

On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space. It's
the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her butt in
the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the flailing
arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a lot of space in
a cockpit.

--

Roger Long




wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.


In my experience, the dangerous time is moving from the cockpit to wherever
you're going, including standing up. Most boats have few handholds, the path
is slippery, on an incline, and the boom is always an issue, not to mention
various lines either under tension or lazy. After you get where you're
going, it's not so bad, but then you have to return.

I think it makes a lot of sense to have all lines led aft. It's not a
complete solution, but it's helpful.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the
night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats
with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent
sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart
discussions.

--

Roger Long



Good point! :-) Having had the mailsail clew snap in the middle of a night
shift and miss my head by about a foot is, I guess, something along the
lines of what you were talking about.

No, I don't. That said, after one becomes proficient, I don't see the need
to perpetuate the ritual of going forward if I don't have to. Also,
single-handing makes this much more difficult and dangerous.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Bowsprit, another bad idea from the past. I have had more time on
older "dangerous" boats than I do on square riggers and the comparison
is just as pertinent. I am not sure whether being a competent sailor
is useful at all if it just means knowing how to use antique hardware
and arcane tasks. Surely being self sufficient and knowledgeable is a
good thing but at what expense? There are many old fashioned things we
might spend time learning about but we dont. How many kids today could
set the points on an older car?
I've spent a lot of time on certain "thrilling" sports but have always
been happy to give up old fashioned ways for more modern safer ones. I
even learned how to use a GPS. My peculiarity about paper charts
concerns aesthetics, not safety.
Once again, do it your way but I assure you that this idea of being a
competent seaman is about as useful as being competent with a buggywhip.

I apologize for seeming to be critical and I hope that you and your
family really enjoy your boat. Endeavors really are nice.

In "Roger Long" writes:

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.

Everybody can rig his boat the best way he knows about and there are
always some place for discussion. But anyone can have an opinion
about different alternatives to perform various tasks, I do not really
understand your reasoning.

I have all my controll lines, reefing lines and hallyards led after to
the cocpit. Still it does not mean, that I do not go to the foredeck.
I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I
do not see why I should have one. Hoisting or lowering the jib has never
been a problem. On the other hand I have seen many problems caused by
the roller.

Quite a many couples sail with a crew of two. It is to me a good system
that the other can go if needed forward and still the other can pull the
ropes in the cockpit. For example by dowsing the jib or the main, it is
in many cases very convinient to have one handling the line from the
cockpit and the other one giving a hand to help the sail to come down or
letting loose a reefing line that is jammed. Even if you have a bundle
of kids to perform the task, one can do it from the cockpit.

Some people have the idea that if they have a furling gear they do not
have to change the sail. So far I have not seen a jib or genoa that is
strong enough to be used in 30 knots and light enough to be used in 6
knots of wind. Looks like most "sailors" solve this problem by motoring
as soon as the wind goes below 10 knots or above 20 knots.

At least my boat is sailing much better, not heeling so much and
pointing higher if I use a 15 square meter jib, that is made of fairly
heavy dacron and is cut very flat if the wind goes above 24 knots.
But when there is less than 12 knots of wind I like to have a bit more
sail, that is made from lighter material and is cut a bit fuller.

So far the furlers do not change the thicknes of the cloth but they
spoil the beautifull shape that the sailmaker has built in with so much
effort. Then I have a real storm jib that is only 7 square meters,
really strong and flat. So I end up changing the foresail once a while.
Then we cet the practice to go to the foredeck.

Even though it is important for the kids to learn to move around in the
boat, I have this funny idea, that it is more important to teach them to
sail properly, to learn about the trimming of the sails, getting the
sensation and the feeling of well trimmed sails and nicely moving boat.
Seems to me, that todays "sailors" with their furling gears have very
little time to sail, as they always have the wrong sail upp. Luckily
they feel it is so easy to roll it in, that they can start the engine
and drive home, but they can always hope that tomorrow we have the
optimal 10 to 16 knots of wind from a proper direction so they can sail
for a while.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

(Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote in
:

I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I
do not see why I should have one.

Ah, the simple pleasure of furling the main into its mast slot in a heavy
wind without even pointing up.....ahhh....

Thank you Monsieur Amel....(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

In Larry W4CSC writes:

(Lauri Tarkkonen) wrote in
:

I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I
do not see why I should have one.

Ah, the simple pleasure of furling the main into its mast slot in a heavy
wind without even pointing up.....ahhh....

I have met a few fellows who shared your feelings until they met the
storm that spoiled the fun.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Thank you Monsieur Amel....(c;

--
Larry

You know you've had a rough night when you wake up and your outlined in
chalk.

I agree with you 100% about the roller furling gear. I had hoped to
find a boat without so I could endanger my family even more by having
to do foredeck work every time the sail went up and down and not just
when we needed a different size.

After we bought this boat, I thought for a while of trying to do an
exchange with someone but finally decided there would be plenty to do
and learn in the first year. In my heart, I knew I would become so
used to the convenience that it's probably here to stay.

If it were just my wife and I cruising in this boat, I would leave the
rig with everything led aft.

--

Roger Long