We finally sailed "Strider".

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boat20.htm#Latest

Boat feels great. Heavy, smooth, reassuring, motion like a traditional
boat but responsive and tight turning like a modern craft. Exactly the
combination I was looking for.

We had a short period with plenty of wind for the working jib we flew
for the first day out and she was moving right along. Heeled down to
the sailing angle I would try to maintain in a heavy breeze, there was
not a hint of weather helm and she seemed perfectly balanced. I'm sure
there will be more helm pressure when trying to drive to windward in
strong winds but I suspect the rudder modification was a big
improvement to the steering qualities.

She's not a very stiff boat which is probably at the root of a lot of
the weather helm complaints I've heard about these boats.. That's the
price of all that weight in the hull instead of ballast. I suspect
I'll be using a bit of iron jib for any long windward legs when I need
to be there instead of just enjoying the sailing.

I'm very happy with this boat. Someone asked me why a designer would
buy one. Well, she behaves pretty close to the way I would have
designed a boat to act for what we want to do with this one.

The previous owner had led every line except the ones holding the
fenders to an impressive array of lever cams just forward of the
cockpit. I'm sure he would have ended the fender lines there as well
if he could have figured out how. That's not the way I want to sail
the boat since I want to teach my kids how to work on deck and don't
want all that activity and lines in the cockpit with the larger
numbers we'll be sailing with. Since he moved one of the winches from
the mast to the cabin top, we are now short a mast winch.

I don't want to spring for another winch right now and the one on the
cabin top will be handy for other things. It seems silly to have a
seldom used line like the roller furling/reefing jib halyard in the
cockpit so here's what I'm thinking of doing for that line:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard.jpg

Since roller headsail changing underway is so infrequent in fair
weather coastal sailing, I think this should work well. Halyard
tension will be precise and convenient without having to use a winch
handle. If I do need to get the sail down, the cam cleat will let me
get enough slack to undo the sheet bend.

--

Roger Long

I nearly bought an Endeavor 32 before I bought my 28' S2. I kinda like
the boat. However, I really reccomend that you keep the control lines
going tot eh cockpit. There is no reason the endanger your kids or
yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. I cannot
figure out why more boats do not lead halyards , etc to the cockpit.

wrote in message
ups.com...
There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them
go up on the cabin top for no reason.

Reason is in the eye of the beholder. There is no reason to endanger
your children or anyone else by taking them out on the water in a
sinkable craft with lines under tension and heavy things swinging
around.

Teaching is the prime reason for us having this boat. Not all boats
they sail are going to have all cockpit control and learning to work
safely on deck is a foundation of seamanship. We also plan to sail
with as many guests as the boat can comfortably hold and sometimes
more. To do that, I've got to move as much activity out of the
cockpit as possible.

--

Roger Long

Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.

Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older
"dangerous" boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all
cockpit control and it made sense for the retired couple who sailed
this boat by themselves. I'm not sure about the danger though.

The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of
sailing were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when
you stand up to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of
handholds and they are at and above your center of gravity. The
shrouds are between you and the ocean and there is this big solid
thing you can lean against.

On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space.
It's the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her
butt in the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the
flailing arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a
lot of space in a cockpit.

--

Roger Long




wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea
now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances
are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use
engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real
seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the
lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I
was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month
when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who
was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line
and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older "dangerous"
boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all cockpit control and
it made sense for the retired couple who sailed this boat by themselves.
I'm not sure about the danger though.

The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of sailing
were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when you stand up
to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of handholds and they
are at and above your center of gravity. The shrouds are between you and
the ocean and there is this big solid thing you can lean against.

On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space. It's
the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her butt in
the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the flailing
arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a lot of space in
a cockpit.

--

Roger Long




wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.


In my experience, the dangerous time is moving from the cockpit to wherever
you're going, including standing up. Most boats have few handholds, the path
is slippery, on an incline, and the boom is always an issue, not to mention
various lines either under tension or lazy. After you get where you're
going, it's not so bad, but then you have to return.

I think it makes a lot of sense to have all lines led aft. It's not a
complete solution, but it's helpful.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed "Roger Long"
felt compelled to write:

wrote in message
oups.com...
There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them
go up on the cabin top for no reason.

Reason is in the eye of the beholder. There is no reason to endanger
your children or anyone else by taking them out on the water in a
sinkable craft with lines under tension and heavy things swinging
around.

Teaching is the prime reason for us having this boat. Not all boats
they sail are going to have all cockpit control and learning to work
safely on deck is a foundation of seamanship. We also plan to sail
with as many guests as the boat can comfortably hold and sometimes
more. To do that, I've got to move as much activity out of the
cockpit as possible.

I agree with you, Roger. I've had plenty of amusement watching folk
attempting to reef from the cockpit running downwind, or worse; after
bearing off in a gust, trying to round up across a steep following sea
to drop the pressure out of the sails for a reef. I prefer to work the
halyards and rigged reef lines (including a cunningham d/haul from the
base of the mast.

Even if equipped with a furler, some conditions demand headsails
changed or removed, these tasks cannot be performed from the cockpit.
Going forward is an integral part of sailing, it can hardly be
accurately described 'endangering your children for no reason'.

Ian

Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of
you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and
going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in
a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke.
Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails
is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the
foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing
the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller
furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do
a lot more sailing. especially single handed.
In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion
on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the
control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the
cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top.
Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it
the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the
smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for
him, not what seems "salty".

While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed
felt compelled to write:

Going out on yards to reef used to be what good seamen did. Do any of
you still do that, shame! So, before you rant about seamanship and
going up on cabin tops, I want to see you on a yard 100' above deck in
a winter storm, otherwise, your just blowing smoke.

You've never seen me rant. I said I prefer to reef from the mast base.
I said I have seen folk who apparently never go forward struggle when
trying to turn across weather to allow them to reef or drop sail. As
it happens, I don't actually care whether you agree with me or not;
I'm capable of accepting your differing opinion.

Many newer boats only have a single furling sail so changing headsails
is never an issue. However, on my boat at least, sitting on the
foredeck is probably safer than standing on the cabin top so changing
the jib was never a major problem. BTW, I recently changed to roller
furling and will not go back. It has made my life much easier and I do
a lot more sailing. especially single handed.

I wasn't arguing against furlers, but thanks for the elucidation. I
was talking about changing sail or removing from a furler in a blow. I
see how wrestling a frenzied, whipping headsail to the deck wouldn't
be a problem for you, but moving to the mast base is a terrifying,
life-threatening experience. Frankly, whilst we'd all rather be
reaching in 15kn on a calm sea from the cockpit; it isn't always
possible.

In a recent thread about broaching in a squall, there was a discussion
on just this topic. It would have been much less an issue if the
control lines were led to teh cockpit. In a broach, I am sure that the
cockpit is a better place to be than on the cabin top.

I'm sorry that I can't follow how running the halyards back to the
cockpit somehow mitigates a broach, but I did read that thread. From
memory it was from someone with little experience who got caught out
by a 30kt bullet. The location of the halyards would have hardly
compensated for their lack of experience, in what is a reatively
routine occurance. In fact from memory I think they had problems
trying to round up, and getting blown off / down when stalled. Not a
problem if you set up to be able to reef running downwind. How do you
reef from the cockpit running downwind, yourself?

Rig your boat any way you please, but please, no more bs about doing it
the difficult way making you a better seaman. From where I sit, the
smart seaman is the best and the smart one does what works best for
him, not what seems "salty".

I'm not much given to bull****, that was my opinion. On my boat, I
would never be able to reef downwind without going to the mast, so if
I have to go to the mast to reef, I may as well terminate the halyards
there. If I tried to round up, the apparent wind would likely take my
rig straight down, so I have to rig to reef downwind if necessary.

Perhaps you are having a bad day? I'll leave it at that.

Ian

In article . com,
wrote:

I nearly bought an Endeavor 32 before I bought my 28' S2. I kinda like
the boat. However, I really reccomend that you keep the control lines
going tot eh cockpit. There is no reason the endanger your kids or
yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. I cannot
figure out why more boats do not lead halyards , etc to the cockpit.


On the boats I've sailed with aft-lead halyards, I invariably discovered
it was faster and less effort to haul the sail most of the way up right
at the mast. On some boats, it seemed to take 5 minutes to get the sail
up because of the drag.

It's always a compromise. I prefer the sail set I get with straight slab
reefing though it requires a couple of minutes at the mast. A single
line reef led back also puts considerably different strains on the
gooseneck than it was designed for.

If it's too wild to reef at the mast, it's usually time to get the main
down --fast-- and I can do that in a few seconds though it won't be neat.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/