I nearly bought an Endeavor 32 before I bought my 28' S2. I kinda like
the boat. However, I really reccomend that you keep the control lines
going tot eh cockpit. There is no reason the endanger your kids or
yourself by having them go up on the cabin top for no reason. I cannot
figure out why more boats do not lead halyards , etc to the cockpit.

wrote in message
ups.com...
There is no reason the endanger your kids or yourself by having them
go up on the cabin top for no reason.

Reason is in the eye of the beholder. There is no reason to endanger
your children or anyone else by taking them out on the water in a
sinkable craft with lines under tension and heavy things swinging
around.

Teaching is the prime reason for us having this boat. Not all boats
they sail are going to have all cockpit control and learning to work
safely on deck is a foundation of seamanship. We also plan to sail
with as many guests as the boat can comfortably hold and sometimes
more. To do that, I've got to move as much activity out of the
cockpit as possible.

--

Roger Long

Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.

Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older
"dangerous" boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all
cockpit control and it made sense for the retired couple who sailed
this boat by themselves. I'm not sure about the danger though.

The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of
sailing were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when
you stand up to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of
handholds and they are at and above your center of gravity. The
shrouds are between you and the ocean and there is this big solid
thing you can lean against.

On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space.
It's the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her
butt in the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the
flailing arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a
lot of space in a cockpit.

--

Roger Long




wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea
now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances
are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use
engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real
seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the
lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I
was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month
when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who
was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line
and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Now you've got me curious. How much time do you have in older "dangerous"
boats? There is certainly a convenience issue with all cockpit control and
it made sense for the retired couple who sailed this boat by themselves.
I'm not sure about the danger though.

The close overboard calls I had during my last quarter century of sailing
were mostly in the cockpit where there are few handholds when you stand up
to do something. At the mast, there are all sorts of handholds and they
are at and above your center of gravity. The shrouds are between you and
the ocean and there is this big solid thing you can lean against.

On your other point: It's not the rope coils that take up the space. It's
the person standing up to grind the winch and sticking his or her butt in
the face of someone sitting in the cockpit. Then there are the flailing
arms as the lines are coiled up. Believe me, it takes up a lot of space in
a cockpit.

--

Roger Long




wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, just cuz it was done in the past doesnt mean its a good idea now.
You could argue that real seamen sail with canvas sails butpeople
would laugh at you for such an assertion. Technological advances are
made for good reason and in this day there are few reasons for mast
mounted winches. Old boats just are old, not better.
I know thata Endeavor has an engine, do real seamen EVER use engines,
of course they do although all boats do not have them and real seamen
did not use them in the past. Auxiliary engines, like cockpit led
control lines were a good idea.
As far as getting room int eh cockpit for guests, simply coil the lines
and put em on the cabin top when not in use.
Creating danger for purely arbitrary reasons seems odd to me but I was
simply suggesting based on my experience. Its your boat, set it up
your way and enjoy.
My appreciation for my cockpit led controls increased last month when I
sailed from Sarasota to N. Florida across the Gulf of Mexico. After
dark, the wind got up a little so I decided to reef. The guy who was
sailing with me thought i had to go up on the cabin top to reef,
instead I simply slacked the halyard and pulled on the reefing line and
Voila, I never left the safety of the cockpit at night.


In my experience, the dangerous time is moving from the cockpit to wherever
you're going, including standing up. Most boats have few handholds, the path
is slippery, on an incline, and the boom is always an issue, not to mention
various lines either under tension or lazy. After you get where you're
going, it's not so bad, but then you have to return.

I think it makes a lot of sense to have all lines led aft. It's not a
complete solution, but it's helpful.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.

--

Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the
night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats
with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent
sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart
discussions.

--

Roger Long



Good point! :-) Having had the mailsail clew snap in the middle of a night
shift and miss my head by about a foot is, I guess, something along the
lines of what you were talking about.

No, I don't. That said, after one becomes proficient, I don't see the need
to perpetuate the ritual of going forward if I don't have to. Also,
single-handing makes this much more difficult and dangerous.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In "Roger Long" writes:

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.

Everybody can rig his boat the best way he knows about and there are
always some place for discussion. But anyone can have an opinion
about different alternatives to perform various tasks, I do not really
understand your reasoning.

I have all my controll lines, reefing lines and hallyards led after to
the cocpit. Still it does not mean, that I do not go to the foredeck.
I do not have a furling gear and unless I end up buying a +55 footer I
do not see why I should have one. Hoisting or lowering the jib has never
been a problem. On the other hand I have seen many problems caused by
the roller.

Quite a many couples sail with a crew of two. It is to me a good system
that the other can go if needed forward and still the other can pull the
ropes in the cockpit. For example by dowsing the jib or the main, it is
in many cases very convinient to have one handling the line from the
cockpit and the other one giving a hand to help the sail to come down or
letting loose a reefing line that is jammed. Even if you have a bundle
of kids to perform the task, one can do it from the cockpit.

Some people have the idea that if they have a furling gear they do not
have to change the sail. So far I have not seen a jib or genoa that is
strong enough to be used in 30 knots and light enough to be used in 6
knots of wind. Looks like most "sailors" solve this problem by motoring
as soon as the wind goes below 10 knots or above 20 knots.

At least my boat is sailing much better, not heeling so much and
pointing higher if I use a 15 square meter jib, that is made of fairly
heavy dacron and is cut very flat if the wind goes above 24 knots.
But when there is less than 12 knots of wind I like to have a bit more
sail, that is made from lighter material and is cut a bit fuller.

So far the furlers do not change the thicknes of the cloth but they
spoil the beautifull shape that the sailmaker has built in with so much
effort. Then I have a real storm jib that is only 7 square meters,
really strong and flat. So I end up changing the foresail once a while.
Then we cet the practice to go to the foredeck.

Even though it is important for the kids to learn to move around in the
boat, I have this funny idea, that it is more important to teach them to
sail properly, to learn about the trimming of the sails, getting the
sensation and the feeling of well trimmed sails and nicely moving boat.
Seems to me, that todays "sailors" with their furling gears have very
little time to sail, as they always have the wrong sail upp. Luckily
they feel it is so easy to roll it in, that they can start the engine
and drive home, but they can always hope that tomorrow we have the
optimal 10 to 16 knots of wind from a proper direction so they can sail
for a while.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

You're right. Running lines to the cockpit is almost as wimpy as enclosing
the helm on a research vessel. How could anyone who does that call
themselves a sailor? ;-}

As a dinghy sailor, I learned on boats that had all of the lines in the
cockpit. Wimpy boats, like Finns and 505's. I've never felt fully
comfortable on deck in a blow, though I've learned to cope when necessary.
I'm quite happy that my current boat (as did my previous) permits
most evolutions without leaving the cockpit.

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of the night that
has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling boats with all
line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a competent sailor? This has
some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and chart discussions.

--

Roger Long

You make a very good and valid point.
If you assume that eventually one HAS to go forward and do some work
when the deck is pitching, etc. those that are self confined to the
cockpit and lose or dont even have the foredeck dexterity will be at
supreme risk WHEN they have to go forward.
Physical dexterity on a pitching foredeck is a learned (and important)
skill. If one only sails in the 'safety' of the (enclosed) cockpit,
when the time comes to 'perform up front' that loss or absence of skill
will put that person and the boat at risk.




In article , Roger Long
wrote:

Hmm, must be something about going out on bowsprits in the middle of
the night that has warped my perspective.

Do you think someone who has grown up sailing only roller furling
boats with all line handling done from the cockpit can be considered a
competent sailor? This has some parallels with the GPS Vs pencil and
chart discussions.