very true. I look at the Bristol Channel Cutter (my favorate,
aesthetically) and the Nor'Sea and the old Allieds and the non-decimal
Bristols the way I look at Meg Ryan (to a 50-something she looks good).
Many of the boats that I am attracted to are full keel (or 3/4). I came
close last month to buying a beautifully restored Allied 35' and I am
very attracted to the 'Princess', but, given that my home is the
Chesapeake, I suspect that an affair with a full keel boat will, in the
long run, prove to be less than satisfying. However, I confess that I
would like to hear to the contrary.
Last weekend I was sailing with a group on one of the few boats
willing to deal with strong shifting winds on the Chesapeake; the
conditions in which these boats would excel - saw a large Beneteau give
up. I was taking a sailing course in a small 22' - great way to really
get your feet wet. However, in July and August in the upper Chesapeake
I suspect that I would get pretty frustrated owning a full keel boat.
Again, I do not care much about speed - I do the swimming race across
the bay and I am trying to get away from that kind of competitive
upmanship. But I do not want, especially with an older boat, to rely
too heavily on the motor. I want a boat that I can regularly take down
the Chesapeake and back for 3-5 days by myself and sometimes with my
wife and teenage son. I want to hang out, take in my environs and have
lots of time to be with myself and write. But, as a retiring
triathlete/adventure racer I know that once I hone my skills I will
want to explore less accomodating waters, so I do not want a boat built
only for mellow moments.

rhys wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:23:58 -0400, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:


From double-handed experience the J30 is more entertaining to sail and

much faster than the boats you mentioned.


If you've raced you would probably love "cruising" a J30 or most Js
for that matter. C&C 30s and 33s also make that "glorified daysailer"
mark in that they are safe and stable, but still can be actively
sailed fast.

If your accomodations don't need to exceed an Origo, a Koolatron and a
few sleeping bags, you have a lot of choice also in the 1/4 tonner
fleet, although headroom's an issue.

Solo and getting on a bit, I would say 33 feet is a good practical
limit, because you have to move fast or be quite skilled indeed to
dock alone with something much bigger in most fast cruisers.

A Westsail 32 or a Contessa, on the other hand, will just hit the dock
and stop. G

R.

The best way to sail "fast" is to leave the phone at home, rip out
the knotmeter, and pull all the ropes a little too tight. Fast is a
relative term. Some sail to be competetive, and some sail to get
away from it all. Just ask yourself if the seagulls worry about
going fast enough.

If the numbers on an electronic instrument are more important to you
than sailing "well", sell the boat and buy a top fuel dragster.

Otherwise, it just becomes a contest to see who's craziest and will
spend the most money for the sake of a .1 on the knotmeter, or
another scratch on some trophy.

At least, that's not why I sail. You must please youreslf.

Terry K

wrote:\

... I came close last month to buying a beautifully
restored Allied 35' and I am very attracted to the 'Princess', but,
given that my home is the Chesapeake, I suspect that an affair with
a full keel boat will, in the long run, prove to be less than
satisfying ...

I don't immediately see why, assuming you buy "smart." On the Bay boats
that do well in light air are probably more "fun" but there is nothing
wrong with an old CCA design that good sails (and good sailing) won't fix.

... in July and
August in the upper Chesapeake I suspect that I would get pretty
frustrated owning a full keel boat ...

I think this is an oversimplification, but it is certainly true that the Bay
has its own character. Why not sail over to New England during August like
everyone else and be done with it?

... Again, I do not care much about speed ...

Did you not just indicate the opposite?

? ... But I do not
want, especially with an older boat, to rely too heavily on the
motor. I want a boat that I can regularly take down the Chesapeake
and back for 3-5 days by myself and sometimes with my wife and
teenage son ...

I have noticed that people who have to get back by Monday morning need a
reliable engine. My own solution was to retire early.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
wrote:
what are you sailing (or did I miss it in your text )? Nice boat!!

If directed at me, I am owned by a Cape Dory 28.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Probably takes good care of you though. g

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:18:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

I know that some singlehander will heave to make lunch, or do some
other chore, but with modern autopilots it isn't really a necessity.

On a nice day with a moderate breeze I can heave to and park the boat
so it drifts sideways at very low speed, whereas with the auto-pilot
it will continue on at 6 knots plus. Putting it in park feels better
unless there's absolutely nothing near by.

Ryk

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:12:08 -0400, rhys wrote:

On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote:

I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling
wealthier).

Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper
still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was
squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am
at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and
go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30
foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated
race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn.,
which is about $11,500 U.S.

I agree that under 30' is a real buyer's market these days. There are
lots of sail away options at under $10K.

Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or
tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items,
you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with
new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's
essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if
you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure
one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less,
and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and
systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails
anyway.

There is also a really enjoyable process in going out to buy a whole
bunch of new, cool stuff that makes it much more *your* boat than just
taking delivery of the whole package.

Ryk

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:18:20 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Snip

I know that some singlehander will heave to make lunch, or do some
other chore, but with modern autopilots it isn't really a necessity.

Some singlehanders will heave to to make lunch not because of a lack
of an autopilot but because heaving to eases the boat's motion and
steadies her down some. Easier to cook or whatnot when the boat isn't
lurching around. )
Mark E. Williams

(initiator of thread - thanks for keeping this discussion going) There
are definately lots of boats for sale in the 30' range and last weekend
at a large marina on the northern part of the Chesapeake I counted
relatively few boats under 32'; most being 38' and above (most of them
Hunters, Catalinas, and Beneteaus - in that order).
This question is directed at those who know something about
Bristols. I have been following the listings for five months now. I
copy the specs and I keep track of what the asking prices are. In
comparison to Tartans, C&C's, Sabres, etc., the variance in asking
price for the Bristol, whether it is the 31.1 or 35.5 (especially this
one) is much higher. And this wide range of asking prices (55-119k) is
within the same region and with what appear to me equally equipped and
aged boats. I have visited some of them them, though have not gotten to
the point where I have had them surveyed, so I do not know if there is
something fundamentally wrong with the ones in the 50-ish range and
something spectacular with those priced much higher. The cosmetically
cleaner boats are the pricier ones, but not so nice that they should be
priced 75% higher than the others. Sure, the Bristol may have a cult
following, but so does the Tartan 37, Ericson 38, Westsail 32, and the
Sabres, and I do not see a similar range in asking prices for these
boats. The Bristol has a lot of things going for it, but its downside
is also common knowledge. Is there something I am missing? Or are some
sellers irrational? Few are moving.
My hope is that if I remain patient the market will be more rational
toward the end of the season. But I am a new to this game. Any advice?

wrote:

My hope is that if I remain patient the market will be more rational
toward the end of the season. But I am a new to this game. Any advice?

Well-priced, well-found boats can be had at either end of the market.
What you are doing now could be termed due diligence. Keep asking lots
of questions.
Good luck and eventually good sailing!

rhys wrote:

On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote:

I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling
wealthier).

Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper
still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was
squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am
at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and
go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30
foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated
race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn.,
which is about $11,500 U.S.

Speaking of Newports, the 28 and 30 are some of the roomiest boats of their
size. They sail well too. I've never sailed the 28, but I think it's similar
to the 30 -- which I've sailed a lot. It's decent in light air, and handles a
breeze just fine (they're a Gary Mull design from San Francisco, where they're
still popular). For some reason these boats are pretty cheap. I've seen nice
Newport 30s for under 10 grand.

I'm also very partial to the Cal 27 II and III, which is a great sailor, and
also cheap. Same with the 34 -- which is larger but less expensive than some of
the boats mentioned. Some friends circumnavigated in one, so I trust it. If
you can find a Cal 2-30 they're a gem of a sailor and more modern looking too.
Cals aren't as fancy as some other boats, but they're well built, good sailors.

If you spend less money on the boat, you'll have more available for improving
and outfitting. I'd rather spend my money on new sails than a bunch of teak.

The good news is that you can reasonably over-budget on the basis of
getting a circa 30 footer that is immaculate and/or discounted on the
basis of known and easily fixable stuff. Frequently you will see an
older fellow or couple who have been the single owners of a smaller
sailboat for 25 + years. The things frequently look factory, and some
have been incrementally improved (hot running water, newer electrical
panels, etc.) by owners who spend a long of time aboard.

Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or
tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items,
you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with
new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's
essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if
you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure
one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less,
and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and
systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails
anyway.

All good points. One advantage of popular mass-produced boats like Beneteaus
and Catalinas is that sails and other parts are more widely available, at lower
prices. Cals and Newports fall into this category too.

Also, Catalina has always made a lot of stuff in-house, and still offers better
support for their old boats than just about anybody.

Matt O.