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You guys are both making totally different points, and purposfully avoiding
the point that the other is making. It seems to me that both points have merit if you'll stop to consider for a moment. At the risk of stepping in between you for a moment, let me see if I can summarize what both of you are saying. Point 1: In a really bad situation with determined armed intruders, waving a gun around is a bad strategy that will probably get you shot. Therefore if you are going to carry a gun you'd better have examined yourself before hand, and be ready to shoot/kill someone if you have to pull out the gun. If you cannot do this you should not carry a gun. Point 2: There are some situations where the intruder is not determined or a professional, and the sight of a weapon will deter them into leaving the scene. In this case you may be able to avoid a potentially problematic encounter with the local police where you have to explain why you killed one of their citizens. These points are not mutually exclusive. Don W. Len wrote: Mike G wrote: If someone is so uninformed about fire arms, their various potentials, and the kinds of people who use them for criminal purposes in truly lawless area's of the world, the really bad bad guys, one would probably be better off without one. Your premature and flawed conclusions are based on my picture of a hypothetical situation you just don't want to address, cause it brings up the need to think, to weigh your decisions and choose your conduct with thought. All you do in this discussion is avoid the nuances and refer to the very easy situation in which really bad bad pirates should be shot legitimetly by surprise. Now let me put this in simple terms for you... Are you really too simple to understand there are situations possible a) forcing you to get your gun but b) do not legitimize blasting everyone around to hell? Well, if so good luck to us all then. Imo it's guys like you that are better off without a gun. |
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:17:14 -0500,
prodigal1 wrote: Mike G wrote: not_proven Hell, even a few box cutters can bring down tall buildings in the real world. /not_proven ?? Sept 11, 2001 ring a bell? -- Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock Rule 1: You can't cure stupid |
Don W wrote:
You guys are both making totally different points, and purposfully avoiding the point that the other is making. It seems to me that both points have merit if you'll stop to consider for a moment. Don, Thanks Don, for a 100% correct summary. Still, the conviction of some around here that not-firing is equal to "need for training" or "You are too much a wuss and will miss the real bad guys" imo leads to concern regarding their basic moral mentality. |
Len,
Just because someone is only armed with a knife does not mean that they are not dangerous. A person armed with a knife within 20 feet of you is actually very dangerous even if you are armed with a gun, because they can close the distance very quickly and kill you before you can bring your gun into action. This scenario is well known in police training, and is actually a practice scenario. Even if you fatally wound them as they are closing the distance, they may still kill you before dying themselves. In the real world, unlike the movies, people do not always drop on the spot when shot. Also, it is not as easy to accurately shoot someone who is rushing you as you might think. Two attackers armed with knives against you armed with a firearm is even worse. After you show your weapon, what are you going to do when they spread out and keep advancing on you from different angles, or they both rush you. Also, remember that just because you are willing to surrender your money and electronics does not necessarily mean that they will not kill you and your wife as well. It just depends on who you are facing, and you will not know that until after it is all over. I'm not suggesting that you shoot from ambush, but if you pull a weapon you'd better be ready to use it in a hurry, because things may happen very quickly. What is your experience with this sort of thing? Don W. Len wrote: Skipper wrote: Len, Leave all firearms behind or get some education about their uses. I've seen a lot of ways a discussion can be slammed down with patronizing remarks but you get the prize... Please, please enlighten me, Capt'n, sir. What in your opinion should I do when I see an attacker or two coming towards my dear wife and me, definitely planning to rob us from all our money and electronics on board. Just muggers, with a knife. Does your "education about the use of weapons" content that I shoot and kill them by surprise at say 30 yards ??? I expect (but also doubt) that your courage and no doubt vigorous mentality permits you to give me some sensible answer... Some americans really are funny.... LOL |
A very sensible question...
As far as people cruising by Yemen, I believe it is so they can enter Med via the Suez canal and avoid a long an potentially hazardous rounding of the Horn. Another fairly unavoidable trouble spot as I understand it is the straits of Malacca through Indonesia. These only apply to circumnavigators of course. Don W. Sailct41 wrote: Just a question from a novice cruiser but experienced ex-navy world traveler, why would you want to cruise in areas where you need weapons? I read about a recent problem in the Red Sea and I wonder what the heck anyone is doing there. It would seem better to spend time in a nice place rather then some hell hole where everyone it considering killing you for your boat. I know that if I had a shotgun or a machine gun I would not bring my wife and children into that kind of situation. As a single man I have spent time in many of the really bad parts of the world and had a good time but I would never do it with my kids. What would be so wrong if you really wanted to cruise the Phillipines to just hire a couple of armed guards. The same would probably be possible in Thailand. "rhys" wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G wrote: IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep it as your "ace in the hole". If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it. Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out, don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down. Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera "Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take. R. |
Don W wrote:
This whole argument has risen from a hypothetical situation just to illustrate a view. Of course I agree with your description of the possible contingencies. Who wouldn't... LOL My experience is army training, including man to man, pistol, rifle and automatic weapons. Quite a few years back I must admit. Len, Just because someone is only armed with a knife does not mean that they are not dangerous. snip I'm not suggesting that you shoot from ambush, but if you pull a weapon you'd better be ready to use it in a hurry, because things may happen very quickly. What is your experience with this sort of thing? |
"Len" wrote in message news:1111317563.a8a0fef5a95910e18e9eaa0f9662aab4@t eranews... The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area. In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position. I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here... But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., So... In order to have this choice, I will have a weapon on board, all legal, with permits, in a locker thats sealed and locked and I will undergo without complaints the cumbersome customs-scenes every time I enter some new territory .... My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ? I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess. Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ? Please feel free to send your answer to my private email if you don't want to post in this group. Regards, Len. I am new to this group but on this topic I can help. Look at the Springfield arsenal XD .40. It is easy to field strip, has good heft and has a number of tactile indicators that help out the less experienced shooter i.e.. is there a bullet in the chamber, have I got shells in the magazine? ..40 should be enough to stop anyone with even a clip shot to the torso. I would also suggest you get your self a long rifle to ensure that they get the message at a distance. Shooting out a window in front of the steersman would give anyone pause for thought. You also need training and a lot of it bear in mind there is a HUGE difference between shooting targets and a living human being. You might want to consider alternatives such as tasers, long range mace etc. |
"Boots" wrote in :
the #4 shot will be deadly, and collateral damage from over penetration would be minimized. I picture a whole new thread starting, now..... "How to get blood and guts off gelcoat and Sunbrella covered seats" or..... "Are they blisters, or just pits caused by buckshot?" |
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:22:09 -0400, Terry Spragg
wrote: rhys wrote: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G wrote: IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep it as your "ace in the hole". If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it. Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out, don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down. Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera "Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take. R. Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one? Or prudence. I have faith in the local police and my own abilities to judge arming myself in the city I live unnecessary and probably self-defeating. Going up the Red Sea, the north east part of South America, or Indonesia is another thing entirely. There, the choice seems to be "avoid entirely" or "consider deterrence". I choose the pen. Well, I choose the keyboard, but the principle's the same. If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool. It is already. The threat of terror is eroding democracy from the inside out. Certain Western leaders are Osama's henchmen, although I doubt they perceive that very much. If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive, you need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions. Hmm. In certain places, it appears that I can be minding my own business in international waters, being a good little Citizen of the Sea, and yet local malcontents and brigands will seek me out, rob me and kill me and my family. What have I got to lose by taking a few of them with me...in the last extreme, of course. It is possible that displaying a willingness to fight back will anger the theives even more. Or perhaps it will send them off to seek easier prey. The history of high seas piracy is quite instructive here. Somali and Indonesian pirates don't appear to be different in kind or moral tone than Barbary pirates or the buccanneers of the Carribbean in the 18th century. How would you inspire a nation? Is that my job? At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend against every madman. Neither can I, but organized yacht looting isn't mad, it's just the most vicious kind of local entrepreneurship. snipping of rambling discourse Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security cameras, or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney satellite dome, and a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent cowl, Zippo in hand. Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and chest from a beer can full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling, shcict, poof, and buddy is all lit up! Well, yeah, that AND a 12-gauge disguised as a boat hook. Options are the sailor's friend. First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and his mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with his own gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames. The latest in reality television: Torch the Third-world Pirate! All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a pen and a line, hook and sinker. Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats, again. You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government. Why do you think I want to world-cruise in the first place? |
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