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What weapon to choose.
The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip
in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area. In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position. I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here... But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., So... In order to have this choice, I will have a weapon on board, all legal, with permits, in a locker thats sealed and locked and I will undergo without complaints the cumbersome customs-scenes every time I enter some new territory .... My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ? I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess. Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ? Please feel free to send your answer to my private email if you don't want to post in this group. Regards, Len. |
"Len" wrote in message snip..... My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ? I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess. Why limit yourself to one? I'd have the shotgun for in close, but also something with 'range'...just in case they stay a bit off and take pot shots at you. |
Len wrote:
snip My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ? I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess. Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ? There was a time in my life when I was a very accomplished marksman as well as a successful hunter. Still own those weapons, both rifles and shotguns. A few years ago, decided to try to use up some ammunition my father had purchased during WWII and see if it was still good. Went sailing one afternoon, took my trusty Model 12, Winchester shotgun and some empty throw away beer bottles for targets. The waves were about 2-3 ft and had about 10 knots of wind. Set the autopilot on a beam reach, trimmed the sails, loaded the shotgun and proceeded to conduct target practice. About 25-30 shots later, I had failed to either hit a bottle while it was still in the air or after it had landed in the water. It was quite an eye opener. Based on that afternoon, I came to the conclusion that a weapon onboard is a bigger PITA than it is worth, especially when it will probably less than effective than you might think. One other thing, unless you are willing to pick up a weapon and shoot another human being dead on the spot without even a moment's hesitation, forget having a weapon onboard. BTW, I'm still a pretty good marksman, on a shooting range, but not on a boat. YMMV HTH Lew |
In article 1111317563.a8a0fef5a95910e18e9eaa0f9662aab4@teran ews,
Len wrote: The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area. In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position. I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here... But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., So... In order to have this choice, I will have a weapon on board, all legal, with permits, in a locker thats sealed and locked and I will undergo without complaints the cumbersome customs-scenes every time I enter some new territory .... My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ? I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess. Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ? Please feel free to send your answer to my private email if you don't want to post in this group. Regards, Len. In reference to the above mentioned story, the author stated the obvious. If the pirates had just stood off and ripped the vessels with their automatic weapons, that would have been the end of the story. The luck here was the pirates were stupid and greedy. They tried to board before the occupants were incapacitated, and suffered their fate at the wrong end of the 12Ga. 00 Buck loaded shotgun. If I was to specify a setup for a High Seas Weapons Locker, it would include, both a Standoff Weapon, and Close-Encounter Weapon. Both need to be available. Standoff Weapon of choice for me would be a Semi-auto Rifle in 308 NATO with Magazine Feed, and at least a 20" Barrel and 3X9 Scope. Close-Encounter Weapon of choice would be an Extended Magazine Pump-action 12Ga. Stainless Shotgun loaded with 00 Buck and Slugs, alternatly. This gives you, "Reach out and Touch Someone" range of 300 Meters, and massive close-in firepower for when the Badguys are trying to board. Nothing like looking down the wrong end of a 12Ga Shotgun barrel, to give the meanest BadGuys second thoughts. There was an outfit in Georgia, USA, that actually built and marketed a combo weapon that was both a semi-auto 308 NATO rifle and semi-auto 12 Ga. shotgun, in an Over and Under Confguration, and both had Clip Magazine Feeds. They wanted $900US+ for it, but it looked like a nice weapon, for just this purpose. I have not seen it advertised for a number of years, but if it is still in production, it might be worth considering. Most folks would be too scared, or not wnat to put up with the hassels to have a Bondable Weapons Locker aboard their vessel, but for my money, it would be manditory if I was going outside North American waters. Bruce in alaska who also is a FFL holder....... -- add a 2 before @ |
In article . com,
Mike G wrote: Can't give you legal but I had a buddy that asked me the same question for the same reason. My choice would be a sawed off or short as possible, read that riot gun which would probably be legal, 12 Ga pump shotgun loaded with #4 bird shot. Sawed Off in the US means barrel length less than 18", and would not be legal to own or posses on a US Flagged vessel. 18.25" barrel length shotguns are vary avalible in the USA, and legal to own and posses. At the ranges found on most boats the shotgun will require no great feats of marksmanship, the #4 shot will be deadly, and collateral damage from over penetration would be minimized. Sawed off or riot gun because a full barreled shotgun would be awkward to wield in the tight confines of a boat. You would not be picking them off at any great distance with the gun but it's be hell on a small boat packed with people when they got up close, and there isn't any sound quite as intimidating as the one of a shell being racked into the chamber of a shotgun. IMPORTANT NOTES If you should run into circumstance where such force was necessary and used it but failed to kill or seriously maim all the bad guys or, unlikely but possible, intimidate them into leaving, when they do gain control of the boat it is quite possible they may be just a tad put out with you and inclined to show it. Really bad bad guys tend to be skeptical of good guys with guns. It's a moral thing. If you should run into a time when you REALLY REALLY think you need to use the gun don't do anything stupid like telling them to go away or you'll shoot or put up their hands. Keep your mouth shut and start blasting. don't stop till there is no one left standing. You'll only have five shots in the magazine so practice speed loading. Extended Magazine Pump-Action 12 Ga. Shotguns are certainly available in the USA. This gives the weapon 8 rounds plus one in the Chamber, which should be enough firepower, to allow for reloading, after the first baradge at close range. IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep it as your "ace in the hole". If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it. Good luck -- Mike G. Heirloom Woods www.heirloom-woods.net Bruce in alaska an FFL, from way back........ -- add a 2 before @ |
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message .net... One other thing, unless you are willing to pick up a weapon and shoot another human being dead on the spot without even a moment's hesitation, forget having a weapon onboard. And that's where a revolver has an advantage ... a couple of lead nose to discourage, and a couple of jacketed loads to ... well. |
Flame thrower, made to be assembled out of innocuous looking plumbing
fittings, scuba gear, and generator gas. If threatened, retire below appearing to be wounded or dead after the first few shots. When they come along side, paint their boat from bow to stern with jellied gasoline and pull away while they ponder what to do next. Or, maybe a fast radio controlled model boat with a half dozen sticks of dynamite. Easier to hide the dynamite than a gun. Remember the power of surprise and doing the unexpected. I'm sure the news about that encounter has spread more widely among the pirate community than it has among ours. They'll be ready to deal with guns by the time you get there. Just kidding but, food for thought. -- Roger Long |
Sounds like you need to practice.
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message .net... Len wrote: snip My question is: what would be a good choice for a weapon ? I am not a drilled marksman so I guess I'll choose a shotgun, as the yacht in the aforementioned story had chosen. When I google around a bit this pump action Mossberg M590A1comes up pretty often. Together with 00-rounds this would be a helpful combination I guess. Can anyone add comments, experiences or advice ? There was a time in my life when I was a very accomplished marksman as well as a successful hunter. Still own those weapons, both rifles and shotguns. A few years ago, decided to try to use up some ammunition my father had purchased during WWII and see if it was still good. Went sailing one afternoon, took my trusty Model 12, Winchester shotgun and some empty throw away beer bottles for targets. The waves were about 2-3 ft and had about 10 knots of wind. Set the autopilot on a beam reach, trimmed the sails, loaded the shotgun and proceeded to conduct target practice. About 25-30 shots later, I had failed to either hit a bottle while it was still in the air or after it had landed in the water. It was quite an eye opener. Based on that afternoon, I came to the conclusion that a weapon onboard is a bigger PITA than it is worth, especially when it will probably less than effective than you might think. One other thing, unless you are willing to pick up a weapon and shoot another human being dead on the spot without even a moment's hesitation, forget having a weapon onboard. BTW, I'm still a pretty good marksman, on a shooting range, but not on a boat. YMMV HTH Lew |
"Dave" wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:40:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom said: Sounds like you need to practice. Sounds like you've never tried target practice from the deck of a vessel in any but the calmest seas. Wrong. |
Sounds like you need to practice.
Sounds like you've never tried target practice from the deck of a vessel in any but the calmest seas. Doug Dotson wrote: Wrong. I have... including a .50BMG from a tripod welded to the deck... now *that* was fun... but that particular vessel had no reason to fear pirates! At one point, I & some friends regularly held skeet shooting off the stern of one of my father's boats. It was the safest place to go & shoot. However, shotguns are an entirely different can-o-worms than even a modest powered rifle. Rifle bullets will skip a long long way over water... it has occured that a man test-firing a hunting rifle in Connecticut killed a girl on a beach in Long Island. Regards Doug King |
"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:34:08 GMT, Lew Hodgett wrote: Len wrote: [...] A few years ago, decided to try to use up some ammunition my father had purchased during WWII and see if it was still good. Went sailing one afternoon, took my trusty Model 12, Winchester shotgun and some empty throw away beer bottles for targets. The waves were about 2-3 ft and had about 10 knots of wind. Set the autopilot on a beam reach, trimmed the sails, loaded the shotgun and proceeded to conduct target practice. About 25-30 shots later, I had failed to either hit a bottle while it was still in the air or after it had landed in the water. It was quite an eye opener. Besides a shotgun not being the most accurate of weapons and possibly lack of skill on the part of the shooter, using 60+ year old ammo couldn't have helped. Probably had corrosive primers as well. Lucky he didn;t blow him self up. Steve |
Mossburg used to make a 12 ga. with a switchab le barrel and stock. I
think the short barrel was just legal (18.25 in.??). The standard stock could be replaced with a pistol stock by simply unscrewing one and screwing the other on. It was a an exccellent defensive weapon and moderately priced. I think it was a pump action. |
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:34:08 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote: Then how do you account for the skeet shooting that used to be done from the fantail of cruise ships (before 9/11). I have fired a fair number of rounds from fantails and found that I do no worse than I do on land. My advise is to arm yourself. See my other post for a suggestion on the appropriate weapon. There was a time in my life when I was a very accomplished marksman as well as a successful hunter. Still own those weapons, both rifles and shotguns. A few years ago, decided to try to use up some ammunition my father had purchased during WWII and see if it was still good. Went sailing one afternoon, took my trusty Model 12, Winchester shotgun and some empty throw away beer bottles for targets. The waves were about 2-3 ft and had about 10 knots of wind. Set the autopilot on a beam reach, trimmed the sails, loaded the shotgun and proceeded to conduct target practice. About 25-30 shots later, I had failed to either hit a bottle while it was still in the air or after it had landed in the water. It was quite an eye opener. Based on that afternoon, I came to the conclusion that a weapon onboard is a bigger PITA than it is worth, especially when it will probably less than effective than you might think. One other thing, unless you are willing to pick up a weapon and shoot another human being dead on the spot without even a moment's hesitation, forget having a weapon onboard. BTW, I'm still a pretty good marksman, on a shooting range, but not on a boat. YMMV HTH Lew |
I've done my thinking and made up my mind, Roger, thank you and I
don't want to start THE discussion all over again, that's proven to be utterly useless. Thanks to all, including the people who responded via email, for some pretty sound advice... Len. "Roger Long" wrote: Flame thrower, made to be assembled out of innocuous looking plumbing fittings, scuba gear, and generator gas. If threatened, retire below appearing to be wounded or dead after the first few shots. When they come along side, paint their boat from bow to stern with jellied gasoline and pull away while they ponder what to do next. Or, maybe a fast radio controlled model boat with a half dozen sticks of dynamite. Easier to hide the dynamite than a gun. Remember the power of surprise and doing the unexpected. I'm sure the news about that encounter has spread more widely among the pirate community than it has among ours. They'll be ready to deal with guns by the time you get there. Just kidding but, food for thought. |
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:19:02 +0100, Len
wrote: The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area. In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position. I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here... But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., *snip! Regards, Len. Len, Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds like you really need some defensive training. |
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote: IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep it as your "ace in the hole". If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it. Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out, don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down. Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera "Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take. R. |
rhys wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G wrote: IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep it as your "ace in the hole". If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it. Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out, don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down. Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera "Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take. R. Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one? I choose the pen. If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool. If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive, you need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions. How would you inspire a nation? At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend against every madman. Is there a really smart crackpot out there with a plan to kill everyone in revenge for being teased as a nurd, because he was too smart, and not smart enough to hide it? Lordy, it get tiresome pretending to be deaf and stupid. Unlocked cockpit doors are one thing, where are there other weaknesses still left ajar? Oops! don't say it here! The paranoid over reaction could get you branded as a danger to security. Where is the sweet spot for terror / stress / productivity / cost benefit? Who's managing this situation? Is the oil price high enough for all you Texans, yet? I want an electric car. 150 km, 100 km/h, 5 hour recharge is fine. Bring on the nuclear power. Bury the waste where it came from, silicated into glass. Let's get to work on solar shingles. If civilisation dissolves or nukes itself into Einstein's fourth world war, fought with sticks, and future cave men find purple glowing glass attractive jewellery, we deserved it. Only Education gives us any chance at all. Radioactive H2 and H3 can be recycled, seperated out of watery wastes and that's where it comes from, anyway. Let's get over this nuclear bull****. There's far greater danger in gold mines, with cyanide lagoons just waiting for a typhoon, government controlled schools, and dirty DEW line sites to clean up. C'mon! The Japanese electric car Eliica looks like a Citröen, and France depends on nukes. Where do they tip it? Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security cameras, or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney satellite dome, and a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent cowl, Zippo in hand. Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and chest from a beer can full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling, shcict, poof, and buddy is all lit up! First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and his mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with his own gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames. All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a pen and a line, hook and sinker. Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats, again. You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government. Unless you go looking for trouble. Terry K |
Skipper wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:19:02 +0100, Len wrote: The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area. In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position. I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here... But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., *snip! Regards, Len. Len, Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds like you really need some defensive training. Right on! Maintain surprise options. I still prefer the beer can full of gas and zippo flame thrower for overall effect. Oh, and a kevlar life jacket. Terry K |
Wow Terry,
That was quite a stream of consciousness! I do agree with you on the alternate energy sources though, and the oil prices are quite high enough, thank you. OT/ [with China and India industrializing at an amazing rate I think the world is finding that we should have paid more attention to the "energy crises" back in 1973 when it first reared its ugly head] \OT As far as guns on boats is concerned, this thread has been hashed, re-hashed, hashed-over, re-hashed-over, etc. Its in the archives. Quick summary for latecomers: Having a gun aboard will be quite a hassle at check-in in many countries you visit. Not declaring it can get you arrested and your boat confiscated, along with lengthy stays in a third-world prison. If you declare, many places will sieze your weapon and hold it for you until you are ready to check out, and it may disappear during the holding process. In any case it will mean that you have to come back to the check-in city before departing, and that may be quite an inconvenience depending on your plans. As far as the Yemen incident in recent threads, I don't think that your "beer can" flamethrower would have been much help. Also, the cruiser involved was fairly lucky in his engagement of multiple AK-47s vs his shotgun. The question of defensive weapons for yachts is very complicated and the answer is likely to be highly personal and depend on a lot of things (such as where you are going to cruise). YMMV, Don W. Terry Spragg wrote: Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one? I choose the pen. If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool. If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive, you need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions. How would you inspire a nation? At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend against every madman. Is there a really smart crackpot out there with a plan to kill everyone in revenge for being teased as a nurd, because he was too smart, and not smart enough to hide it? Lordy, it get tiresome pretending to be deaf and stupid. Unlocked cockpit doors are one thing, where are there other weaknesses still left ajar? Oops! don't say it here! The paranoid over reaction could get you branded as a danger to security. Where is the sweet spot for terror / stress / productivity / cost benefit? Who's managing this situation? Is the oil price high enough for all you Texans, yet? I want an electric car. 150 km, 100 km/h, 5 hour recharge is fine. Bring on the nuclear power. Bury the waste where it came from, silicated into glass. Let's get to work on solar shingles. If civilisation dissolves or nukes itself into Einstein's fourth world war, fought with sticks, and future cave men find purple glowing glass attractive jewellery, we deserved it. Only Education gives us any chance at all. Radioactive H2 and H3 can be recycled, seperated out of watery wastes and that's where it comes from, anyway. Let's get over this nuclear bull****. There's far greater danger in gold mines, with cyanide lagoons just waiting for a typhoon, government controlled schools, and dirty DEW line sites to clean up. C'mon! The Japanese electric car Eliica looks like a Citröen, and France depends on nukes. Where do they tip it? Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security cameras, or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney satellite dome, and a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent cowl, Zippo in hand. Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and chest from a beer can full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling, shcict, poof, and buddy is all lit up! First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and his mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with his own gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames. All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a pen and a line, hook and sinker. Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats, again. You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government. Unless you go looking for trouble. Terry K |
Terry Spragg wrote: Skipper wrote: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:19:02 +0100, Len wrote: The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area. In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position. I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here... But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., *snip! Regards, Len. Len, Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds like you really need some defensive training. Right on! Maintain surprise options. I still prefer the beer can full of gas and zippo flame thrower for overall effect. Oh, and a kevlar life jacket. Terry K Terry, I like your "kevlar life jacket" idea, but its only good against pistol bullets unless you get the really heavy ceramic internal plates. Then it might not work as a life jacket ;-) I like the idea of a steel boat with a steel door that latches on the inside. Most rifles won't penetrate 3/8" steel, and you can make your windows and skylights mostly bulletproof as well. Now all you need is an electrical system that can switch the genset output to the right pre-selected portions of the deck/\railing, or deck/\door handle and the bad guys are in for a real shock! Of course, you have to keep that in mind when you've been out for a night drinking with your buddies, and the missus is in one of _those_ moods ;-) Later, Don W. |
Terry Spragg wrote in
: Right on! Maintain surprise options. I still prefer the beer can full of gas and zippo flame thrower for overall effect. Oh, and a kevlar life jacket. Terry K I met a German in a beautiful yawl on the docks. His favorite is Russian hand grenades available cheap. Nice looking bombs. He tossed one into a speedboat just popping out of the dark cabin as they came alongside off Indonesia.....Boom! Problem solved..... |
Don W wrote in
: we should have paid more attention to the "energy crises" back in 1973 when it first reared its ugly head] \OT There was no crises in '73. It was contrived. Every abandoned service station in SC was overflowing with excess gas/diesel. They just refused to SELL it to us except to parcel it out a little at a time. A total lie, all of it. My uncle in PA flys light planes. He took pictures of loaded oil tankers offshore of NJ, loaded to the gunwales, long lines of them. All the tanks ashore were full and it just piled up at sea. Once Americans got a taste of the power of big oil, big oil could jack up the prices, a little at a time, and the public just accepted it. We have no choice, just like Europe. What ****es me off is my politicians allow Alaskan oil to go to JAPAN!! |
Skipper wrote:
But when problems do arise I want to have a choice. Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a) waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place..., Len, Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds like you really need some defensive training. So when say two robbers, with a grown knife between their teeth, row to your boat, you'd just shoot them by surprise instead of giving them other thoughts by letting them take a look at your 12 ga.? The term "warning shot" isn't in your vocabulary? Being less of a wise guy I won't go in in what kind of training you might need, but it's all in what you call "defensive" or "offensive". |
For those of you who would pass out cookies and pictures of Hilary Clinton..... from the SE ASIA Mobile Maritime Net:: Pirate Attack Reported to Yemen Officials "On 8 March 2005, two sailing yachts, Mahdi & Gandalf, were moving SW 30 miles off the coast of Yemen proceeding to the port of Aden from Salalah, Oman. At about 0900 two outboard powered boats, about 25 feet long with 3 men in each one, passed off our stern moving south at about 25 knots. An hour or two later they returned, one coming quite close and looking us over carefully. The second boat passed our bows but quite a ways away. These boats were obviously not engaged in a normal activity such as fishing, etc. At that time we were south of Al Mukalla, Yemen. The area around Al Mukalla is well documented as being a piracy problem area and we started watching carefully for anything out of the ordinary. At about 1600 we observed two different boats approaching us head on from the SW. These boats were 25-30 feet long, had higher freeboard and diesel powered. They were coming very fast directly at us. There were 4 men in each boat. The boats separated at about 200 yards, one boat ahead of the other, coming down Mahdi¹s port side and firing into the cockpit. The other boat was firing an automatic weapon at both Gandalf and Mahdi from ahead, more at Gandalf. These guys were shooting directly at the cockpits, and obviously intended to kill us. The first boat swung around behind Mahdi¹s stern to come up and board us. At that point I, Rod Nowlin aboard Mahdi and armed with a 12 gage shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot, started shooting into their boat. I forced them to keep their heads down so that they could not shoot at us. I am not sure I hit anyone at that point although I could see the driver of the boat crouched down behind a steering console. After firing 3 shots at them their engine started to smoke and I swung around to shoot at the boat ahead. At that point, I saw Jay Barry on Gandalf ram that boat amidships almost cutting it in two and turning it almost completely over. I turned back around to shoot again at the boat behind Mahdi and that is when they turned away from Mahdi and were heading toward the stern of Gandalf. Gandalf was beside us, about 100 feet away. The bow of the pirate¹s boat came right up against Gandalf¹s stern and two men stood up on the bow to board Gandalf. That was a serious and probably fateful error on their part. I shot both of them. That boat then veered away and I shot the driver, although I am not sure of the outcome because they were farther away and I did not knock him down like the other two. Mahdi and Gandalf kept going at full speed to put as much distance between the pirates and us as possible. As soon as we were out of rifle range we looked back and both boats were drifting and appeared to be disabled. If Jay on Gandalf had not had the presence of mind to veer over into one boat and ram it, the outcome of this attack would have been totally different. All they needed to do was stand off a ways and shoot us to pieces with automatic weapons. We were extremely lucky. We broadcast Mayday calls on all VHF and HF radio frequencies, including two HF emergency frequencies supplied by the US Coast Guard a few days before. The Coalition Forces in the area were supposed to be monitoring these frequencies. There was no response except from a commercial ship in the area on VHF 16 who approached and observed the disabled pirates for a bit, then sailed along side of us for 2-4 hours until dark to make sure we would be all right. The pirates were well organized and well armed. There were at least 4 boats involved. They had set up a picket line out from the Yemen coast probably at least for 50-75 miles, so if you transited the area during the day they wouldn¹t miss you. The two boats that attacked us appeared to have come from the south. There has been speculation in the past that this ongoing piracy problem off the Yemen coast was being carried out by Somali pirates. Given the number, type of boats involved, and the direction the spotter boats came from, this does not appear to be correct in this case. This problem is getting worse and the pirate attacks are getting deadly. One could only expect that the Yemen Government will take more direct action. At the very least, allow yachts to group in Salalah, Oman and at some point on the NW Yemen coast to request an escort along the Yemen coast." Rodney J. Nowlin, USN Retired [b]S/V Mahdi |
Larry W4CSC wrote:
There was no crises in '73. It was contrived. To some extent I agree. But the political situation driving the economics was quite real. Basically the Arab members of OPEC decided to punish us for supporting Israel... an attitude that has not changed... Once Americans got a taste of the power of big oil, big oil could jack up the prices, a little at a time, and the public just accepted it. We have no choice, just like Europe. Problem with this... for most of the time frame between 1975 and today, gas prices have lagged behind in inflation... until recently, far behind. Look at average wages in 1975... a loaf of bread cost 35c, a new release album $3. What ****es me off is my politicians allow Alaskan oil to go to JAPAN!! Why not? They hold a heck of a lot of our gov't debt, and they pay higher prices for it than you & I. DSK |
In article 1111736083.af4857891b0ce7311315567dd6261fe2@teran ews,
says... So when say two robbers, with a grown knife between their teeth, row to your boat, you'd just shoot them by surprise instead of giving them other thoughts by letting them take a look at your 12 ga.? The term "warning shot" isn't in your vocabulary? You've either have to be kidding or have watched way too much Mr. Roger's neighborhood. Along with the knife in the teeth maybe they will have a hook for a left hand. Does the term "AK47" ring any bells? -- Mike G. Heirloom Woods www.heirloom-woods.net |
I can't imagine one would ever have an advantage on a sailboat vs a
local adversary, other than being prepared for any contingency. I do know this quote "......And if in all respects unequal, be capable of eluding him" -Sun Tzu. I'm not sure how one would be able to put it into practice other than not going near any area which is rumored to have pirates. I guess that would be my question to the group, if you have no choice but to travel through hostile waters, or your are travelling through what could be hostile waters, how would you choose to "be capable of eluding him"? Doug dot vibbert at constellation dot com |
On 25 Mar 2005 07:32:31 -0800, "boatgeek" wrote:
I guess that would be my question to the group, if you have no choice but to travel through hostile waters, or your are travelling through what could be hostile waters, how would you choose to "be capable of eluding him"? There's a guy in an otherwise unremarkable 30'(give-or-take) fiberglass sailboat, who has blown by me on at least 3 occasions as I was sailing into Boston Harbor in the evening. I don't know what kind of inboard power he has, but his boat is way overpowered compared to any other sailboat I've seen. His bow comes out of the water and he motors along at a comically high angle and at a speed that seems unnatural for a sailboat. Probably inefficient as all hell, and still can't outrun a serious motor boat, but could be capable of eluding slower motor boats, at least for a while. So I offer a monster auxiliary motor (and suitable prop) as a possible tool for eluding slower pirates. If nothing else, the sight of a sailboat accelerating and planing should give them pause. One disadvantage is that it is probably makes it harder to aim your own weapons. -- Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems , , www.synchro.com (my email address is politician-proof, just remove the PORK) |
Larry W4CSC wrote:
Terry Spragg wrote in : Right on! Maintain surprise options. I still prefer the beer can full of gas and zippo flame thrower for overall effect. Oh, and a kevlar life jacket. Terry K I met a German in a beautiful yawl on the docks. His favorite is Russian hand grenades available cheap. Nice looking bombs. He tossed one into a speedboat just popping out of the dark cabin as they came alongside off Indonesia.....Boom! Problem solved..... A grenade is a bomb. A bomb is a weapon of mass destruction. Possessing bombs is a crime in most parts. Possessing beer cans and gasoline and a yard sprayer and zippo lighter is not. Defense is 99% brains and ingenuity, and 1% mechanical assistance, except with ballistic missiles. There is no reliable defense against ballistic missiles, the only chance for "victory" is a deeper capacity to absorb attrition, at least until the air is poisonous, unless you consider prevention of the attack in the first place. The best defense is to give no offense. What difference could I possibly have with a Chinese peasant? Why must our sons fight to the death? Let our leaders enter the ring first, naked and unarmed, if they feel enough need to fight. Get your head straight, man. Terry K |
Mike G wrote:
In article 1111736083.af4857891b0ce7311315567dd6261fe2@teran ews, says... So when say two robbers, with a grown knife between their teeth, row to your boat, you'd just shoot them by surprise instead of giving them other thoughts by letting them take a look at your 12 ga.? The term "warning shot" isn't in your vocabulary? You've either have to be kidding or have watched way too much Mr. Roger's neighborhood. Along with the knife in the teeth maybe they will have a hook for a left hand. Does the term "AK47" ring any bells? Mike, Take a look at the message I responded to. I just tried to picture a hypothetical situation for sake of argument. I see no need to ridiculize it, perhaps you could try to add something of value to the discussion... But I must say this thread is getting more and more informative... LOL To me it looks like _some_ of the posters in favor of having a weapon on board are incapable of proper reading, lack _any_ sensible empathy or even the slightest bit of attention for the content of the arguments they read, are agressively tense and trigger happy... Hmm, what is that smell... fear ? xenophoby ? Anyway, it explains to me to some extent the at times very uptight discussions typical for this subject. |
In article ,
Larry W4CSC wrote: What ****es me off is my politicians allow Alaskan oil to go to JAPAN!! there is NO alaskan OIL that is going to Japan, Larry, and anyone who says that any of the North slope OIl is going to anywhere except the West coast refineries, is just plain WRONG. or uninformed. Best to get your facts straight before spouting NONESENCE...... Bruce in alaska who works those tankers daily on 4125.0Khz -- add a 2 before @ |
DSK wrote in
: punish us for supporting Israel... an attitude that has not changed... Oh oh...watch out! When I tell 'em I'd send all the Israeli spies home that run our gummit, I'm branded an antisemite....or is that extraterrestrial? I fergit. You're not supposed to think about the trouble caused by this apartheid country that threatens our very core..... |
WaIIy wrote in
: They did up to 2001, then apparently stopped, although a bunch of LNG goes to Japan. Hmm...Japan pays $7/gallon for gas....Californicate only pays $3. Amazing they stopped selling to some place they can get double, isn't it? It might get REFINED in Californicate, on its way to Japan.... |
Rich Hampel wrote in
: For those of you who would pass out cookies and pictures of Hilary Clinton..... Hermann says they **** their pants while frantically trying to get to the Russian hand grenade rolling around under the seats....(c; They don't expect the yachtie Clinton Lovers to put up any fight....especially yachties unarmed by international laws and stupid customs inspections. |
Len wrote in
news:1111782081.4515138e0f4014f7db098cab704cd6d7@t eranews: Hmm, what is that smell... fear ? Those will be the alive ones, after the firefight is over..... |
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:34:19 +0100, Len
wrote: Len, Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds like you really need some defensive training. So when say two robbers, with a grown knife between their teeth, row to your boat, you'd just shoot them by surprise instead of giving them other thoughts by letting them take a look at your 12 ga.? The term "warning shot" isn't in your vocabulary? Being less of a wise guy I won't go in in what kind of training you might need, but it's all in what you call "defensive" or "offensive". Len, Leave all firearms behind or get some education about their uses. |
Skipper wrote:
Len, Leave all firearms behind or get some education about their uses. I've seen a lot of ways a discussion can be slammed down with patronizing remarks but you get the prize... Please, please enlighten me, Capt'n, sir. What in your opinion should I do when I see an attacker or two coming towards my dear wife and me, definitely planning to rob us from all our money and electronics on board. Just muggers, with a knife. Does your "education about the use of weapons" content that I shoot and kill them by surprise at say 30 yards ??? I expect (but also doubt) that your courage and no doubt vigorous mentality permits you to give me some sensible answer... Some americans really are funny.... LOL |
http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm Pistol grips available, the
mariner model can be had with a 9 shot capacity. Add some nasty ammo from http://www.firequest.com/ and you're all set. -- Keith __ You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive. "Joe Bleau" wrote in message ... Mossburg used to make a 12 ga. with a switchab le barrel and stock. I think the short barrel was just legal (18.25 in.??). The standard stock could be replaced with a pistol stock by simply unscrewing one and screwing the other on. It was a an exccellent defensive weapon and moderately priced. I think it was a pump action. |
Speaking of, someone posted an idea that may have some merit. He loaded up a
dry chemical fire extinguisher with cayenne pepper instead of dry chemical. Charged up and claimed that it was a very potent weapon at close range. Impossible for the authorities to tell it was anything but a fire extinguisher unless they actually discharged it. I don't know how practical this is, but sounded interesting anyway. -- Keith __ Why do croutons come in airtight packages? Aren't they just stale bread to begin with? "Terry Spragg" wrote in message ... Larry W4CSC wrote: Terry Spragg wrote in : Right on! Maintain surprise options. I still prefer the beer can full of gas and zippo flame thrower for overall effect. Oh, and a kevlar life jacket. Terry K I met a German in a beautiful yawl on the docks. His favorite is Russian hand grenades available cheap. Nice looking bombs. He tossed one into a speedboat just popping out of the dark cabin as they came alongside off Indonesia.....Boom! Problem solved..... A grenade is a bomb. A bomb is a weapon of mass destruction. Possessing bombs is a crime in most parts. Possessing beer cans and gasoline and a yard sprayer and zippo lighter is not. Defense is 99% brains and ingenuity, and 1% mechanical assistance, except with ballistic missiles. There is no reliable defense against ballistic missiles, the only chance for "victory" is a deeper capacity to absorb attrition, at least until the air is poisonous, unless you consider prevention of the attack in the first place. The best defense is to give no offense. What difference could I possibly have with a Chinese peasant? Why must our sons fight to the death? Let our leaders enter the ring first, naked and unarmed, if they feel enough need to fight. Get your head straight, man. Terry K |
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