Sounds like you need to practice.


Sounds like you've never tried target practice from the deck of a vessel
in
any but the calmest seas.


Doug Dotson wrote:
Wrong.


I have... including a .50BMG from a tripod welded to the deck... now
*that* was fun... but that particular vessel had no reason to fear pirates!

At one point, I & some friends regularly held skeet shooting off the
stern of one of my father's boats. It was the safest place to go & shoot.

However, shotguns are an entirely different can-o-worms than even a
modest powered rifle. Rifle bullets will skip a long long way over
water... it has occured that a man test-firing a hunting rifle in
Connecticut killed a girl on a beach in Long Island.

Regards
Doug King

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:34:08 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Len wrote:
[...]
A few years ago, decided to try to use up some ammunition my father had
purchased during WWII and see if it was still good.

Went sailing one afternoon, took my trusty Model 12, Winchester shotgun
and some empty throw away beer bottles for targets.

The waves were about 2-3 ft and had about 10 knots of wind.

Set the autopilot on a beam reach, trimmed the sails, loaded the shotgun
and proceeded to conduct target practice.

About 25-30 shots later, I had failed to either hit a bottle while it
was still in the air or after it had landed in the water.

It was quite an eye opener.

Besides a shotgun not being the most accurate of weapons and possibly
lack of skill on the part of the shooter, using 60+ year old ammo
couldn't have helped.

Probably had corrosive primers as well. Lucky he didn;t blow him self up.

Steve

Mossburg used to make a 12 ga. with a switchab le barrel and stock. I
think the short barrel was just legal (18.25 in.??). The standard
stock could be replaced with a pistol stock by simply unscrewing one
and screwing the other on. It was a an exccellent defensive weapon
and moderately priced. I think it was a pump action.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:34:08 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

Then how do you account for the skeet shooting that used to be done
from the fantail of cruise ships (before 9/11). I have fired a fair
number of rounds from fantails and found that I do no worse than I do
on land. My advise is to arm yourself. See my other post for a
suggestion on the appropriate weapon.

There was a time in my life when I was a very accomplished marksman as
well as a successful hunter.

Still own those weapons, both rifles and shotguns.

A few years ago, decided to try to use up some ammunition my father had
purchased during WWII and see if it was still good.

Went sailing one afternoon, took my trusty Model 12, Winchester shotgun
and some empty throw away beer bottles for targets.

The waves were about 2-3 ft and had about 10 knots of wind.

Set the autopilot on a beam reach, trimmed the sails, loaded the shotgun
and proceeded to conduct target practice.

About 25-30 shots later, I had failed to either hit a bottle while it
was still in the air or after it had landed in the water.

It was quite an eye opener.

Based on that afternoon, I came to the conclusion that a weapon onboard
is a bigger PITA than it is worth, especially when it will probably less
than effective than you might think.

One other thing, unless you are willing to pick up a weapon and shoot
another human being dead on the spot without even a moment's hesitation,
forget having a weapon onboard.

BTW, I'm still a pretty good marksman, on a shooting range, but not on a
boat.

YMMV

HTH

Lew

I've done my thinking and made up my mind, Roger, thank you and I
don't want to start THE discussion all over again, that's proven to be
utterly useless.
Thanks to all, including the people who responded via email, for some
pretty sound advice...
Len.

"Roger Long" wrote:

Flame thrower, made to be assembled out of innocuous looking plumbing
fittings, scuba gear, and generator gas. If threatened, retire below
appearing to be wounded or dead after the first few shots.

When they come along side, paint their boat from bow to stern with
jellied gasoline and pull away while they ponder what to do next.

Or, maybe a fast radio controlled model boat with a half dozen sticks
of dynamite. Easier to hide the dynamite than a gun.

Remember the power of surprise and doing the unexpected. I'm sure the
news about that encounter has spread more widely among the pirate
community than it has among ours. They'll be ready to deal with guns
by the time you get there.

Just kidding but, food for thought.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:19:02 +0100, Len
wrote:

The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip
in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts
that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area.

In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position.
I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied
by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here...

But when problems do arise I want to have a choice.
Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a)
waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place...,

*snip!
Regards,
Len.

Len,
Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds
like you really need some defensive training.

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote:


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.

Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good
advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and
get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out,
don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down.

Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless
bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera
"Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take.

R.

rhys wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:07:56 -0500, Mike G
wrote:


IF you are not sure of a situation keep the firearm close at hand and
out of sight and don't go waving it around like it's a magic wand. Keep
it as your "ace in the hole".

If you don't think you can do that don't waste money on a firearm. It'll
only get you into more trouble then you would have been in without it.


Whatever one's stance on guns in yachts this is very, very good
advice. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I would have to train and
get dozens of permits, etc., but I do agree that if you bring it out,
don't stop shooting until everyone's dead or down.

Of course, if you're wrong and you've killed the crew of a harmless
bumboat, you'll rot in a tropical prison or make the Al-Jazeera
"Beheading of the Day", but that's the chance you take.

R.

Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one?

I choose the pen.

If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool.

If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive,
you need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions.

How would you inspire a nation?

At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend
against every madman.

Is there a really smart crackpot out there with a plan to kill
everyone in revenge for being teased as a nurd, because he was too
smart, and not smart enough to hide it? Lordy, it get tiresome
pretending to be deaf and stupid.

Unlocked cockpit doors are one thing, where are there other
weaknesses still left ajar?

Oops! don't say it here! The paranoid over reaction could get you
branded as a danger to security. Where is the sweet spot for terror
/ stress / productivity / cost benefit?

Who's managing this situation? Is the oil price high enough for all
you Texans, yet?

I want an electric car. 150 km, 100 km/h, 5 hour recharge is fine.
Bring on the nuclear power. Bury the waste where it came from,
silicated into glass. Let's get to work on solar shingles.

If civilisation dissolves or nukes itself into Einstein's fourth
world war, fought with sticks, and future cave men find purple
glowing glass attractive jewellery, we deserved it. Only Education
gives us any chance at all. Radioactive H2 and H3 can be recycled,
seperated out of watery wastes and that's where it comes from,
anyway. Let's get over this nuclear bull****. There's far greater
danger in gold mines, with cyanide lagoons just waiting for a
typhoon, government controlled schools, and dirty DEW line sites to
clean up. C'mon!

The Japanese electric car Eliica looks like a Citröen, and France
depends on nukes. Where do they tip it?

Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security
cameras, or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney
satellite dome, and a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent
cowl, Zippo in hand. Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and
chest from a beer can full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling,
shcict, poof, and buddy is all lit up!

First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and
his mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with
his own gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames.

All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a
pen and a line, hook and sinker.

Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats,
again. You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government.

Unless you go looking for trouble.

Terry K

Skipper wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:19:02 +0100, Len
wrote:


The missus and I are preparing our boat and ourselves for a RTW-trip
in a few years. My attention was drawn to the story of the two yachts
that succesfully defended themselves from pirates in the Yemen area.

In the ever ongoing weapons discussion I take a moderate position.
I know I'll be on my own, in known risky places preferably accompanied
by a few other yachts in a convoy. SSB is your friend here...

But when problems do arise I want to have a choice.
Depending on the situation I want to make a choice between a)
waving/using a gun and b) let it lie in it's place...,


*snip!

Regards,
Len.


Len,
Never show a weapon. Never brandish or wave a weapon. It sounds
like you really need some defensive training.

Right on! Maintain surprise options. I still prefer the beer can
full of gas and zippo flame thrower for overall effect. Oh, and a
kevlar life jacket.

Terry K

Wow Terry,

That was quite a stream of consciousness! I do agree with you on
the alternate energy sources though, and the oil prices are quite
high enough, thank you. OT/ [with China and India industrializing at
an amazing rate I think the world is finding that we should have paid more
attention to the "energy crises" back in 1973 when it first reared
its ugly head] \OT

As far as guns on boats is concerned, this thread has been hashed,
re-hashed, hashed-over, re-hashed-over, etc. Its in the archives.

Quick summary for latecomers: Having a gun aboard will be quite a hassle
at check-in in many countries you visit. Not declaring it can get you
arrested and your boat confiscated, along with lengthy stays in a
third-world prison. If you declare, many places will sieze your weapon and
hold it for you until you are ready to check out, and it may disappear
during the holding process. In any case it will mean that you have to
come back to the check-in city before departing, and that may be quite
an inconvenience depending on your plans.

As far as the Yemen incident in recent threads, I don't think that your "beer
can" flamethrower would have been much help. Also, the cruiser involved
was fairly lucky in his engagement of multiple AK-47s vs his shotgun.

The question of defensive weapons for yachts is very complicated and
the answer is likely to be highly personal and depend on a lot of
things (such as where you are going to cruise).

YMMV,

Don W.

Terry Spragg wrote:

Isn't it strange, the distance to which paranoia can press one?

I choose the pen.

If I was a societal engineer, terror would have to be a major tool.

If they are not 'after you', you relax, right? To be competitive, you
need to be scared. A nervous trigger shoots in many directions.

How would you inspire a nation?

At least the RCMP has the guts to admit that they can't defend against
every madman.

Is there a really smart crackpot out there with a plan to kill everyone
in revenge for being teased as a nurd, because he was too smart, and not
smart enough to hide it? Lordy, it get tiresome pretending to be deaf
and stupid.

Unlocked cockpit doors are one thing, where are there other weaknesses
still left ajar?

Oops! don't say it here! The paranoid over reaction could get you
branded as a danger to security. Where is the sweet spot for terror /
stress / productivity / cost benefit?

Who's managing this situation? Is the oil price high enough for all you
Texans, yet?

I want an electric car. 150 km, 100 km/h, 5 hour recharge is fine. Bring
on the nuclear power. Bury the waste where it came from, silicated into
glass. Let's get to work on solar shingles.

If civilisation dissolves or nukes itself into Einstein's fourth world
war, fought with sticks, and future cave men find purple glowing glass
attractive jewellery, we deserved it. Only Education gives us any chance
at all. Radioactive H2 and H3 can be recycled, seperated out of watery
wastes and that's where it comes from, anyway. Let's get over this
nuclear bull****. There's far greater danger in gold mines, with cyanide
lagoons just waiting for a typhoon, government controlled schools, and
dirty DEW line sites to clean up. C'mon!

The Japanese electric car Eliica looks like a Citröen, and France
depends on nukes. Where do they tip it?

Overall, BEST weapon for a sailboat: satellite linked security cameras,
or counterfeit warning placards complete with phoney satellite dome, and
a flamethrower disguised as a beer can or vent cowl, Zippo in hand.
Doubt not, a spray of gasoline in the face and chest from a beer can
full of it, accompanied by a deft c'ling, shcict, poof, and buddy is all
lit up!

First, you offer him a real beer, show that he is on live tv, and his
mother might be watching, "Say Hi!", then, you shoot him with his own
gun, after you help him into the water to put out the flames.

All you need is a laptop with a camera, to jab his brains out with a pen
and a line, hook and sinker.

Just keep him unparanoid enough to not worry about guns on boats, again.
You are far more likely to get swindled by a bank or government.

Unless you go looking for trouble.

Terry K