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Pete Verdon d wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote: Our boat was made for the Caribbean and we sail on the East coast of the US, so it is frequently hot, humid and airless Don't have any wind scoops though. No? Most of the boats I've sailed on in hot places have had one for the fore-hatch, and they make a big difference down below if there's any breeze at all. It's a small triangle of sailcloth, about three feet tall and with the bottom edge long enough to go round three sides of the hatch. There's a cord from the point which you tie to something above the deck (often one of the jib sheets[1]) and a drawstring arrangement at the bottom which fixes it around the hatch. You set it up facing into the breeze, and it deflects air downwards through the hatch. I remember seeing an X-shaped one recently which looked quite good as it wouldn't need to be pointed into the wind. Pete [1] Assuming roller furling We've never felt the need for wind scoops. If we are at anchor, the boat usually points into the wind and the hatch popped up acts as a wind scoop. I've seen some boats where the hatch can be hinged on either side in case the wind or breeze isn't coming from the bow. grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html |
Pete Verdon d wrote in
: Gives it character. Pete Just tell them you used to be on diesel submarines....(c; EVERYONE on a diesel sub smells like the inside of the diesel tanks! |
Rosalie B. wrote:
We've never felt the need for wind scoops. If we are at anchor, the boat usually points into the wind and the hatch popped up acts as a wind scoop. Fair enough. Most boats I've been on have the hinge at the front, so that wouldn't work. I think it's required by chartering regulations somewhere, which is why they're built like that. I have seen a suggestion that, if anchored in calm weather somewhere hot, you could shift the anchor line to the stern so that the companion way acts as a big wind scoop right into the whole cabin. Struck me as quite a good idea, as long as the conditions were right. Pete |
Relic Hunter wrote in
: I live in the NE. Lake Erie is my home lake. But I enjoy reading the experiences of others. I was born and raised on Owasco Lake, 40 mi SW of Syracuse. Been a boat owner, of one sort or another since I was 8 (lovingly restored old oak rowboat and 1hp Elto outboard circa 1930-something and given to me for Christmas in 1954..(c; It was painted the same green as the picnic tables at the state park because my grandfather knew someone.) Back on topic....is Lake Erie still "dead" or have the two governments gotten that under control? We used to tent camp at Fair Haven State Park on Lake Ontario, every weekend, from the time the snow melted until it returned.....weeks later!..(c; Larry KNOWS Mooneyes on a beach. The only boat I own, right now, is a 9.6' Watertender and Yam 3hp outboard one of the guys at the marina gave me. (I never turned down a free boat....not one time!) He hated towing it and bought a Fold-A-Bote. It's a fun boat, though not rippingly fast so my neighbor's kids can play with it. The ketch I sail on belongs to a friend from Atlanta. We're going sailing in the morning after the weekenders head back to the slave pits. |
Pete Verdon d wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote: We've never felt the need for wind scoops. If we are at anchor, the boat usually points into the wind and the hatch popped up acts as a wind scoop. Fair enough. Most boats I've been on have the hinge at the front, so that wouldn't work. I think it's required by chartering regulations somewhere, which is why they're built like that. I doubt that as our boats were made for charter and almost all the hatches are configured to open forward. I think the saloon hatches open from the back, but we rarely open them anyway. Of course it may be that since they are old, they still considered that if people didn't close the hatches before they got underway, they deserved wet bedding rather than try to legislate it out for them. I have seen a suggestion that, if anchored in calm weather somewhere hot, you could shift the anchor line to the stern so that the companion way acts as a big wind scoop right into the whole cabin. Struck me as quite a good idea, as long as the conditions were right. Pete grandma Rosalie |
Rosalie B. wrote:
Pete Verdon d wrote: Most boats I've been on have the hinge at the front, so that wouldn't work. I think it's required by chartering regulations somewhere, which is why they're built like that. I doubt that It's still true, though. as our boats were made for charter and almost all the hatches are configured to open forward. This is *UK*.rec.sailing. *Our* charter regs require hatches to hinge at the front. Mind you, these regs are fairly young, not more than about 15 years old. I expect you lot across the pond don't even have regs which apply to recreational charter craft and not to recreational non-charter craft. Of course it may be that since they are old, they still considered that if people didn't close the hatches before they got underway, they deserved wet bedding rather than try to legislate it out for them. Our charter rules also require hatches to be labelled with a notice "NOT TO BE OPENED AT SEA". |
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:48:54 GMT, Ronald Raygun
wrote: Rosalie B. wrote: Pete Verdon d wrote: This is *UK*.rec.sailing. *Our* charter regs require hatches to hinge at the front. Mind you, these regs are fairly young, not more than about 15 years old. I expect you lot across the pond don't even have regs which apply to recreational charter craft and not to recreational non-charter craft. Except that this is cross posted so it is not just uk.r.s, so it not just a UK discussion. PyroJames Would arsonists please try to control themselves for the duration of the emergency. |
Ronald Raygun wrote:
as our boats were made for charter and almost all the hatches are configured to open forward. This is *UK*.rec.sailing. *Our* charter regs require hatches to hinge at the front. Mind you, these regs are fairly young, not more than about 15 years old. I expect you lot across the pond don't even have regs which apply to recreational charter craft and not to recreational non-charter craft. U.S. regs don't have much for bare boat charters, and its not a large business in the states. Even small crewed boats often under "6-pak" rules (so-called because the operator's license is only valid up to 6 passengers) which are pretty easy for a production boat to meet. For more passengers, a vessel must be "inspected" which is considerably more strict, and pretty much requires that a boat is designed for that purpose. FWIW, I don't recall ever seeing rear facing hatches on a recreational sailboat, except aft hatches. My boat has 4 forward facing hatches forward of the mast. It was designed and built in Canada, an a number of them are in charter service. Of course it may be that since they are old, they still considered that if people didn't close the hatches before they got underway, they deserved wet bedding rather than try to legislate it out for them. Our charter rules also require hatches to be labelled with a notice "NOT TO BE OPENED AT SEA". Does that apply to all hatches, or just those up forward? I have hatches 8 feet above the waterline that can't take water in seas under about 4 feet. I usually close them in rougher weather to avoid catching spray, but they only really need to be dogged down in seas over 8 feet. |
PyroJames wrote:
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:48:54 GMT, Ronald Raygun wrote: Rosalie B. wrote: Pete Verdon d wrote: This is *UK*.rec.sailing. *Our* charter regs require hatches to hinge at the front. Mind you, these regs are fairly young, not more than about 15 years old. I expect you lot across the pond don't even have regs which apply to recreational charter craft and not to recreational non-charter craft. I was thinking more about Caribbean charters which is what I'm more familiar with. I didn't know that the UK HAD charters, let alone rules for building boats to go into charter. So I've learned something. (Which I think is a good thing BTW) And too, our boat is a 1979 model, so it is way more than 15 years old. I really don't know what the new regs in the US require or even if there are any. My husband always requires that we close all hatches and ports before getting underway even though we don't really sail much in the actual OCEAN. Even in bays, rivers, creeks, canals etc, it's a good idea to close up the boat before pulling the anchor or leaving the dock. Sometimes we do forget, of course. If you close the hatch before you get underway, I can see no advantage and PLENTY of disadvantages for the hatch to open facing the stern. Why do you have that regulation? Except that this is cross posted so it is not just uk.r.s, so it not just a UK discussion. PyroJames Would arsonists please try to control themselves for the duration of the emergency. I hope you won't object too much to my following the cross posted thread, even if I don't know the UK rules. grandma Rosalie |
If you read the literature concerning long distance sailing published
prior to the 1980s, much of it was something like this: " We had never been on a boat in our lives, but we always wanted to sail around the world. We saw a P.O.S. 30 for sale cheap that the owner swore was only a "little rotten", so we sold all our belongings, bought a book on how to navigate, and took off with our 9 kids". They had one big advantage over modern sailors; When a storm hit they KNEW there was NO WAY to get help from anyone. Instead of calling the USCG, they figured out how to get through a storm on their own. The ones that did not obviosly didn't survive to write books. Joe |
Rosalie B. wrote:
I was thinking more about Caribbean charters which is what I'm more familiar with. I didn't know that the UK HAD charters, Heh, heh. Go on, say it. No-one in their right mind would want to sail in UK waters. let alone rules for building boats to go into charter. So I've learned something. (Which I think is a good thing BTW) And too, our boat is a 1979 model, so it is way more than 15 years old. There are plenty of UK charter boats which are older than the rules too, but that doesn't exempt them from complying. In most cases compliance can be achieved by simply modifications. In the case of hatches, for example, you simply have to remove and refit the hatches the prescribed way round. I really don't know what the new regs in the US require or even if there are any. My husband always requires that we close all hatches and ports before getting underway even though we don't really sail much in the actual OCEAN. Sure, but proceeding "to sea" doesn't mean you have to go out to the "actual ocean", it just means leaving sheltered waters. Even in bays, rivers, creeks, canals etc, it's a good idea to close up the boat before pulling the anchor or leaving the dock. Sometimes we do forget, of course. Of course. If you close the hatch before you get underway, I can see no advantage and PLENTY of disadvantages for the hatch to open facing the stern. Plenty? Such as? Apart from ventilation, which has already been mentioned. By the way, except where plenty of ventilation is needed, such as would make a scoop necessary, it shouldn't matter much which way the hatch faces. The natural air circulation path for a boat lying to the wind is said to be such that air *exits* by the forehatch and *enters* by the companionway. Why do you have that regulation? Probably because if you close but forget to lock it, a big sea coming over the bows is likelier to fling it open when the hinge is at the back than at the front, thus allowing more water to find its way below. I hope you won't object too much to my following the cross posted thread, even if I don't know the UK rules. Not at all. |
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Ronald Raygun wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote: I was thinking more about Caribbean charters which is what I'm more familiar with. I didn't know that the UK HAD charters, Heh, heh. Go on, say it. No-one in their right mind would want to sail in UK waters. England and France suck, but Scotland *rocks*! |
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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:36:30 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote: PyroJames wrote: Except that this is cross posted so it is not just uk.r.s, so it not just a UK discussion. PyroJames Would arsonists please try to control themselves for the duration of the emergency. I hope you won't object too much to my following the cross posted thread, even if I don't know the UK rules. Me? Not at all. I don't find that sailing conversations are generally limited to one geographical area. There are equally valuable contributions to discussions from both sides. PyroJames Would arsonists please try to control themselves for the duration of the emergency. |
Jeff wrote:
Ronald Raygun wrote: Our charter rules also require hatches to be labelled with a notice "NOT TO BE OPENED AT SEA". Does that apply to all hatches, or just those up forward? I have hatches 8 feet above the waterline that can't take water in seas under about 4 feet. I usually close them in rougher weather to avoid catching spray, but they only really need to be dogged down in seas over 8 feet. Actually, having checked the rules, they're not as strict as I thought: --quote 5.1.1.3 A hatchway with a hinged cover which is located in the forward portion of the vessel should normally have the hinges fitted to the forward side of the hatch, as protection of the opening from boarding seas. A hatch with the hinges on the after side of the hatch should be secured closed at sea, and be provided with a suitable blank. --unquote |
Rosalie B. wrote:
PyroJames wrote: I was thinking more about Caribbean charters which is what I'm more familiar with. I didn't know that the UK HAD charters, let alone rules for building boats to go into charter. So I've learned something. (Which I think is a good thing BTW) There are very few rules about non-commercial sailing in the UK[1]. No required qualifications for skippers or crew, no rules about the design, construction or equipment of the boat[2]. Once money is involved, though, all kinds of regulations apply. It can be quite expensive to upgrade a privately-used boat to charter spec, and turning hatches round is one of the things that gets mentioned. If you close the hatch before you get underway, I can see no advantage and PLENTY of disadvantages for the hatch to open facing the stern. Why do you have that regulation? Because plenty of idiots charter boats :-). I think the main reason for it is in case the hatch is shut but someone forgets to close the latches. If a wave comes onto the foredeck with the hinge at the front, it will tend to push the hatch closed and only a little water will come into the boat. With the hinge at the back, the wave will pull the hatch open and rush into the boat. Except that this is cross posted so it is not just uk.r.s, so it not just a UK discussion. I hope you won't object too much to my following the cross posted thread, even if I don't know the UK rules. I don't object at all. You're very welcome. Pete [1] Though our government seems to be doing its best to change that :-( [2] There *are* rules if you're building the boat to be sold. |
Jeff wrote:
Ronald Raygun wrote: Our charter rules also require hatches to be labelled with a notice "NOT TO BE OPENED AT SEA". Does that apply to all hatches, or just those up forward? I have hatches 8 feet above the waterline that can't take water in seas under about 4 feet. I usually close them in rougher weather to avoid catching spray, but they only really need to be dogged down in seas over 8 feet. I think it applies to all hatches (not sure about small opening ports like you often have in the side-windows above the cooker), but of course you're free to ignore it if you wish. Pete |
On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:20:57 -0500, "Dennis Gibbons"
wrote: In other words, we can't take you seriously as a sailor or even a wanna-be. Well, I was trying to be gentle G R. |
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:11:16 -0500, Gogarty
wrote: In article , says... Perfect Storm is a fine, but humanly imperfect, piece of book journalism. Everything in it is attributed. As a journalist, I would be proud to have written it. Are you a journalist Rodney? I didn't know that. Well, as a one-time journalist myself, I too am envious that somebody else wrote the book, but it was sloppy journalism nonetheless. Which, by the way, I can understand. There are some people vital to a story that you just don't want to talk to or can't talk to either because they will upset a thesis or they are just nasty and intimidating people one would rather not go near. But the worst thing for any journalist is to have someone who prominently figures in a story pop up after the fact and say "He never even tried to talk to me." A retired journalist. Bob Brown was the only person in any way "vital to the story" that wasn't interviewed. We don't really know whether the author tried to talk to him. Mr Leonard complained, but the book reports the voyage of the Tangueroa very well, in a way that conveys the southern fringe of the storm. The author pehaps shouldn't have reported what his crew said about Mr Leonard, but it was in no way vital, or even important. Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a "That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick I? How can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my own husband?" |
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Pete Verdon d wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote: PyroJames wrote: I was thinking more about Caribbean charters which is what I'm more familiar with. I didn't know that the UK HAD charters, let alone rules for building boats to go into charter. So I've learned something. (Which I think is a good thing BTW) There are very few rules about non-commercial sailing in the UK[1]. No required qualifications for skippers or crew, no rules about the design, construction or equipment of the boat[2]. Once money is involved, though, all kinds of regulations apply. It can be quite expensive to upgrade a privately-used boat to charter spec, and turning hatches round is one of the things that gets mentioned. Our hatches are configured so that they can be done either way - i.e. there are pads in the hatch openings so that you can have the hinges either on the forward side or on the aft side. I have occasionally seen them on the aft side, but not often. (I have a list of over 300 of our type of boat, and I've been physically on a lot of them.) If you close the hatch before you get underway, I can see no advantage and PLENTY of disadvantages for the hatch to open facing the stern. Why do you have that regulation? Because plenty of idiots charter boats :-). I think the main reason for it is in case the hatch is shut but someone forgets to close the latches. If a wave comes onto the foredeck with the hinge at the front, it will tend to push the hatch closed and only a little water will come into the boat. With the hinge at the back, the wave will pull the hatch open and rush into the boat. Maybe this is the difference between hatches - we do not have the flush hatches. Our hatches have a lip all the way around maybe 3" that fits down over the raised lip that is inside around the hatch and the center of the hatch is depressed maybe 3/4" inside the raised lip. To get under the edge of the hatch, the water would have to go under the forward edge and then up 3". Also a wave coming over the bow (which happens fairly often) would be coming DOWN onto the hatch, and not backward under the lip. It wouldn't be enough to raise the hatch up, even if it wasn't dogged shut IMHO. It would have to still have enough force to get the hatch up even after going in and up. Except that this is cross posted so it is not just uk.r.s, so it not just a UK discussion. I hope you won't object too much to my following the cross posted thread, even if I don't know the UK rules. I don't object at all. You're very welcome. Pete [1] Though our government seems to be doing its best to change that :-( [2] There *are* rules if you're building the boat to be sold. Other than the ventilation issue (which is the greatest one - I favor natural ventilation rather than spending money to put in A/C), I can think of no reason to have the hatches one way rather than another. grandma Rosalie |
Larry W4CSC wrote:
Relic Hunter wrote in : I live in the NE. Lake Erie is my home lake. But I enjoy reading the experiences of others. I was born and raised on Owasco Lake, 40 mi SW of Syracuse. Been a boat owner, of one sort or another since I was 8 (lovingly restored old oak rowboat and 1hp Elto outboard circa 1930-something and given to me for Christmas in 1954..(c; It was painted the same green as the picnic tables at the state park because my grandfather knew someone.) Back on topic....is Lake Erie still "dead" or have the two governments gotten that under control? We used to tent camp at Fair Haven State Park on Lake Ontario, every weekend, from the time the snow melted until it returned.....weeks later!..(c; Larry KNOWS Mooneyes on a beach. The only boat I own, right now, is a 9.6' Watertender and Yam 3hp outboard one of the guys at the marina gave me. (I never turned down a free boat....not one time!) He hated towing it and bought a Fold-A-Bote. It's a fun boat, though not rippingly fast so my neighbor's kids can play with it. The ketch I sail on belongs to a friend from Atlanta. We're going sailing in the morning after the weekenders head back to the slave pits. Hello Larry. No Lake Erie seems to be in not too bad shape. I sail on an oil tanker on the Great Lakes and we see quite a few fishing boats on Lake Erie. The water is not good enough for using directly as drinking water as in various parts of Lake Superior for example. I see you are a ham. Been a ham for about 10 years now. In the process of restoring a 27' Vega. Home here is Nova Scotia and will be sailing out of Chester. Colin... |
Larry W4CSC wrote:
Back on topic....is Lake Erie still "dead" or have the two governments gotten that under control? Phosphates in detergents and agricultural runoff were some of the primary causes of the stagnation of the lake in the 60's. Banning phosphates and getting farmers to be a smarter in the use of fertilizers and disposal of "nutrients" from stock-rearing operations started the ball rolling on the clean-up. Water clarity and oxygen content improved steadily throughout the 70's and 80's. In the late 80's the zebra mussel found its way into the ecosystem. Net result of its explosive growth was a shocking improvement in water clarity in the space of a dozen years. Whereas in the 60's good water clarity would be in the 6' range, clarity in the late 90's and currently can be in the 40-60' range. The bottom of the western basin -35-55' depth- is frequently clearly visible from altitude when overflying in calm conditions. The water is clear, but is the lake healthy? No. Recently there have been blooms of blue-green algae that are toxic for certain species of fish. The filtration of micro-organisms by the zebra mussels, combined with the idiotic program of fish-stocking undertaken by Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and the province of Ontario in order to support the sport fishing industry has caused a general collapse of the natural food chain in the lake. |
Relic Hunter wrote in
: Lake Erie has been clean for many years. It is known as the walleye capital of the world. Steelhead (Lake run rainbow trout) are another popular fish along with the perch. At the west end near the islands, bass are plentiful. Thanks for the information. Y'all boys come on down to the Santee Lakes. Bring your big poles, the ones with the winches for reels....(c; SANTEE FISH FACTS * Lake Marion 110,600 Acres * Lake Moultrie 60,400 Acres * 2 Lakes joined by the 6.5 mile Diversion Canal RECORDS * Channel Catfish 58lb (World Record) * Arkansas Blue Catfish 109lbs (State Record) * Striped Bass 55lbs (State Record) * Largemouth Bass 16.2lbs (State Record) * Black Crappie 5 lbs (State Record) Use a fishing guide service. He'll know where all the STUMPS are. The lakes are full of them, which bad for boats, but amazing for fishing.... Wonder what it's like to fight a 109 pound catfish??....(c; |
Colin wrote in news:FasZd.20009$oh4.746302@ursa-
nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca: Hello Larry. No Lake Erie seems to be in not too bad shape. I sail on an oil tanker on the Great Lakes and we see quite a few fishing boats on Lake Erie. The water is not good enough for using directly as drinking water as in various parts of Lake Superior for example. I see you are a ham. Been a ham for about 10 years now. In the process of restoring a 27' Vega. Home here is Nova Scotia and will be sailing out of Chester. Colin... Thanks and nice to meet you, Colin. Yeah, I've been a ham since 1957. I was 11. It's been a great hobby, ruined my whole life. Let me know if you're ever in Charleston. Last week we hosted a ham from Switzerland at our old timer's breakfast. Always lots of fun to breakfast with hams from all over the world. |
prodigal1 wrote in :
The water is clear, but is the lake healthy? No. Recently there have been blooms of blue-green algae that are toxic for certain species of fish. Here in the South, particularly in Eastern NC, blooms of VERY toxic Pfiesteria piscicida have driven boaters and fishermen crazy as their toxins effect human memory in a terrible way. Large commercial hog farms dumping hog sewage into rivers and streams is the root cause. http://www.nal.usda.gov/wqic/pfiest.html They call it "The Cell from Hell"....with good reason. |
WaIIy wrote:
Certainly not on the American side. I know you probably aren't joking, but do you actually boat on Lake Erie? The farthest I've ever seen down in Lake Erie is about 12 ft and that's the record for 50 years of looking. ISTR that you're from Ohio yes? If so, you're in the southwestern end of the lake where it is the shallowest. Unless you get out N and/or E of Pelee Is. you are not going to see what I've seen. I've flown over it, sailed on it and dived in it for almost as long as you. |
But the worst thing for any
journalist is to have someone who prominently figures in a story pop up after the fact and say "He never even tried to talk to me." A retired journalist. Bob Brown was the only person in any way "vital to the story" that wasn't interviewed. We don't really know whether the author tried to talk to him. He did not try to talk to the owner of Satori. Was even quoted saying "he is not the sort of person I'd want to talk to". Was the owner "vital to the story"? I think so, given the attention that part of the story received , and also given the public naming of a person in such derogatory fashion. Even after it was revealed that Satori stayed afloat for 10 days after the storm and the author reluctantly acknowledged that in subsequent paperback editions, he still did not attempt to talk to the owner. Nor did he do enough research to get the story right about where the boat drifted ashore. Not just sloppy. Callously irresponsible. Reckless disregard for a person's reputation. Any responsible journalist would give the subject an opportunity to comment. |
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