Hi, Larry, and thanks for the thought provoking, left below for reference.

However, one snippet which I don't understand - can you elaborate?

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days suggests a static
load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any electrical
device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the power replaced
(which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted, our own power company
should be able to cope with extended periods of no-replacement) - how's this
different?

We have yet to decide about the capacity of the inverter we'll use. Likely
the mikey or coffeemaker will be the biggest draw; I assume that will want
something on the order of 1500w. I have a 1/3hp grinder/polisher and a
skilsaw which might also have a pretty good startup load, so I'm thinking of
2kw as my "solution" to house power.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts (and
even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and wind), we'll
want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and shorepower.

As we don't yet know how we'll use the computer and entertainment stuff, we
assume we'll want to have our outlets available everywhere they are now, as
well as some other places I'll install in the next few weeks. None of those
loads are very big, of course, but running drop cords isn't my ideal power
solution, even if they are in raceways. So, back to the question of central
power (and switchability for shore power/house power) and what to do...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, inching toward completion

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

Why can't we just plug the loads into it? Plug the boat into it, if you
like....just like the dock. Of course, you'd should install a transfer
switch to keep you from feeding the dock into it, or any other inverter
that doesn't have one.

Most things on Lionheart run on DC. A couple of things that don't are the
little microwave oven we paid $15 (new!) for and the laptop power supply
and printer power supply for WEFAX charts at sea. For those, we have a
1KW
Radio Shack inverter mounted right next to the battery switches inside the
engine compartment over the monsters to keep the inverter fan noise out of
the boat and the big cables to it to a minimum length. A length of #14
drop cord snakes its way through to overstuffed wireways to the nav
station
where I installed a 115VAC standard 6-outlet power strip to plug the
various computer loads into it. A second custom drop cord runs from the
inverter to a dual outlet in a handibox behind the microwave in the
galley.

I also ran a control cable from the power switch inside the inverter over
to a microswitch mounted on a neat little plate in a hole at the nav
station used by the former owner for something that needed filling. This
gives the inverter remote control to switch it on and off. A
panel-mounted
neon indicator connected to the 120VAC in the nav station power strip lets
me know the inverter is on and, in fact, producing 120VAC power. When the
microwave is running, my DC clamp-on ammeter shows it drawing about 33A at
13.8VDC to heat dinner. Even at the dock, the microwave runs off the
inverter. We plug the computer stuff into a shore-power outlet by the
inverter's power strip.

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

3KW is way overkill because the boats can't provide DC to 3KW for very
long....

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in
:

Hi, Larry, and thanks for the thought provoking, left below for
reference.

However, one snippet which I don't understand - can you elaborate?

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the
boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;


We have yet to decide about the capacity of the inverter we'll use.
Likely the mikey or coffeemaker will be the biggest draw; I assume
that will want something on the order of 1500w. I have a 1/3hp
grinder/polisher and a skilsaw which might also have a pretty good
startup load, so I'm thinking of 2kw as my "solution" to house power.

2KW is fine.....for INTERMITTENT loads.


As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator = 5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.


As we don't yet know how we'll use the computer and entertainment
stuff, we assume we'll want to have our outlets available everywhere
they are now, as well as some other places I'll install in the next
few weeks. None of those loads are very big, of course, but running
drop cords isn't my ideal power solution, even if they are in
raceways. So, back to the question of central power (and
switchability for shore power/house power) and what to do...

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:58:23 -0500, Larry W4CSC
wrote:
As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

==========================
The better grades of marine inverter/chargers have built in, automatic
transfer switches. This is the most convenient arrangement for
permanent installations. The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel. When the inverter senses AC voltage on the input
side (either from your generator or shorepower), it automatically
switches out of invert mode and into charge mode.

Unfortunately these units are considerably more expensive than the
Walmart variety but they are really the right way to go for a long
term installation.

Practical Sailor just reviewed inverter/chargers and recommended the
new Xantrex MS2000.

A quick Google search popped up a few sites selling it for about
$1500.

http://www.donrowe.com/inverters/ms2000.html

Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, here Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load. Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are "battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean) circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be adding a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel.

Please clarify the above, as wiring both the input and output of an
inverter to a distribution panel IS really a bad idea, and doesn't
conform to ABS or NEC codes........


Me

We have a 1KW inverter and it suns everything we need. THe microwave is
the biggest load.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher
(net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Larry, and thanks for the thought provoking, left below for reference.

However, one snippet which I don't understand - can you elaborate?

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days suggests a
static
load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any electrical
device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the power replaced
(which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted, our own power
company
should be able to cope with extended periods of no-replacement) - how's
this
different?

We have yet to decide about the capacity of the inverter we'll use.
Likely
the mikey or coffeemaker will be the biggest draw; I assume that will want
something on the order of 1500w. I have a 1/3hp grinder/polisher and a
skilsaw which might also have a pretty good startup load, so I'm thinking
of
2kw as my "solution" to house power.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts (and
even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and wind), we'll
want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and shorepower.

As we don't yet know how we'll use the computer and entertainment stuff,
we
assume we'll want to have our outlets available everywhere they are now,
as
well as some other places I'll install in the next few weeks. None of
those
loads are very big, of course, but running drop cords isn't my ideal power
solution, even if they are in raceways. So, back to the question of
central
power (and switchability for shore power/house power) and what to do...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, inching toward completion

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

Why can't we just plug the loads into it? Plug the boat into it, if you
like....just like the dock. Of course, you'd should install a transfer
switch to keep you from feeding the dock into it, or any other inverter
that doesn't have one.

Most things on Lionheart run on DC. A couple of things that don't are
the
little microwave oven we paid $15 (new!) for and the laptop power supply
and printer power supply for WEFAX charts at sea. For those, we have a
1KW
Radio Shack inverter mounted right next to the battery switches inside
the
engine compartment over the monsters to keep the inverter fan noise out
of
the boat and the big cables to it to a minimum length. A length of #14
drop cord snakes its way through to overstuffed wireways to the nav
station
where I installed a 115VAC standard 6-outlet power strip to plug the
various computer loads into it. A second custom drop cord runs from the
inverter to a dual outlet in a handibox behind the microwave in the
galley.

I also ran a control cable from the power switch inside the inverter over
to a microswitch mounted on a neat little plate in a hole at the nav
station used by the former owner for something that needed filling. This
gives the inverter remote control to switch it on and off. A
panel-mounted
neon indicator connected to the 120VAC in the nav station power strip
lets
me know the inverter is on and, in fact, producing 120VAC power. When
the
microwave is running, my DC clamp-on ammeter shows it drawing about 33A
at
13.8VDC to heat dinner. Even at the dock, the microwave runs off the
inverter. We plug the computer stuff into a shore-power outlet by the
inverter's power strip.

I doubt many here will be powering the shore power throughout the boat
with
the battery killing inverter, don't you?.....

3KW is way overkill because the boats can't provide DC to 3KW for very
long....

I don;t see what the problems is. An inverter represents a load on the DC
system. It has be be managed the same as any other load. No magic, no
mystery. The biggest load on our boat is the microwave. 100A for 2 or
three minutes, no problem. The inverter itself is no demon. The usage is
the thing that has to be managed.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher
(net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, here Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery
banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater
with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load. Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are
"battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small
batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean)
circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart
is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be adding
a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want
to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging
ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that
matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:47:47 GMT, Me wrote:

In article ,
Wayne.B wrote:

The inverter has a hard wired AC input
coming from your distribution panel, and a hard wired AC output going
back to the panel.

Please clarify the above, as wiring both the input and output of an
inverter to a distribution panel IS really a bad idea, and doesn't
conform to ABS or NEC codes........

The panel would be split in some way, so the inverter output can't be
connected back to its own input.

One possibility would be to have a breaker feeding only the
inverter/charger, and the inverter's output feeding a couple of
breakers that are electrically isolated from the main input - those
breakers would get power only through the inverter's transfer relay.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

The long winded point is that a 900AH Battery and an inverter will not run a
Heater or an Air Conditioner 24/7 through the weekend without being able to
recharge the batteries at substantial rate. A good sized generator will be
needed!


"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...
I don;t see what the problems is. An inverter represents a load on the DC
system. It has be be managed the same as any other load. No magic, no
mystery. The biggest load on our boat is the microwave. 100A for 2 or
three minutes, no problem. The inverter itself is no demon. The usage is
the thing that has to be managed.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot fishcatcher
(net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, here Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery
banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater
with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load.
Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters
are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are
"battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small
batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if
really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has
that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity
in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean)
circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart
is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be
adding a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want
to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging
ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that
matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

"John Cassara" wrote in message
...
The long winded point is that a 900AH Battery and an inverter will not run
a Heater or an Air Conditioner 24/7 through the weekend without being able
to recharge the batteries at substantial rate. A good sized generator will
be needed!

Absolutely! No heater or AC can be run off of an inverter in any practical
manner.


"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in message
...
I don;t see what the problems is. An inverter represents a load on the DC
system. It has be be managed the same as any other load. No magic, no
mystery. The biggest load on our boat is the microwave. 100A for 2 or
three minutes, no problem. The inverter itself is no demon. The usage is
the thing that has to be managed.

Doug

"Skip Gundlach" skipgundlach sez use my name at earthlink dot
fishcatcher (net) - with apologies for the spamtrap wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all...

Well...

"Larry W4CSC" wrote in message
...

(Me, here Battery killing inverter? Most of what I read these
days
suggests a
static load of well under an amp, some are milliamps. Running any
electrical device will kill a battery eventually if it's not got the
power replaced (which we expect to do in spades, or, as you've noted,
our own power company should be able to cope with extended periods of
no-replacement) - how's this different?

Do the math. Let's say we have a BIG inverter, 4KW continuous. This
is
great for TEMPORARY loads that need 4KW for a few minutes, like your
coffee
maker. But, as I jokingly put it, may boaters think they have their
own
"power station" when they buy one of these beasts. Case in point:

1500W heater - 12.5A@120VAC - about 120A at 13V.....x 24 hrs = 2880AH

To provide for a simple electric heater and only drawing the battery
banks
down to 70%, not zero which destroys them....2880/.30 (30% of battery
capacity) = 9,600AH battery bank. How big did you say those cells
were?...(c; Hence my comment, "The funniest thing is to see a boater
with
a new 4KW inverter carrying his electric heater down the dock with that
smug grin on his face."

I've seen them incredulous that their 5KW inverter can't run the boat's
air
conditioner for the weekend anchored out. Math is not one of their
majors...(c;

Yes - but apparently you're assuming there's lots of continous load.
Like
Lionheart, there will be only very incidental use of AC; everything else
will be 12V. So, I presume it's a non-issue here. That is, inverters
are
not inherently "battery killers" - only continuous large loads are
"battery
killers" (?). We'll not have any such.

As we next to never expect to be at shorepower except during haulouts
(and even then, should have no particular need, with our solar and
wind), we'll want to make our various outlets be both - inverter and
shorepower.

Hmm...5A from a big solar panel or 15A from a wind generator =
5X12hrs=60AH
per day if the sun shines or 360AH wind power in a full gale 24/7.

Not much of a real powerhouse, is it, huge batteries or small
batteries...

Plan on using the big alternator on the engine every day in this
configuration.

Hm. Help me with the math. As a lapsed math, physics and chem major, I
don't remember my stuff all that well. However, I'll have right in the
neighborhood of 500W solar, and a KISS wind generator in the Caribbean.
Various vendors suggest I take the wattage and divide by 3, or 4 if
really
lousy weather, for a reasonable typical AH input, daily. My math has
that
at 170-125AH/day, plus some other unknown - but apparently pretty
substantial - AH from a KISS.

Our anticipated daily budget is about 125AH; we'll have (for simplicity
in
this calculation) ~1250AH capacity. It's our presumption that we'll
have
4-5 days capacity, in the most unimaginable (in the Caribbean)
circumstance
of continuous no wind or sun.

Have I missed something here?

The "drop cords" aren't laying around. You can use electrical cable if
you
like, wired into the boat. The inverter electrical system on Lionheart
is
wired into the boat and plugged into the inverter.

All of the current house locations are already wired. I'll only be
adding a
few.


As to powering the boat from shore and inverter, you install a transfer
switch between the sources, ensuring the inverter is never connected in
parallel with the power company from the dock. It's, essentially, a
double
pole switch, mounted in a box with a lockout so you can't run both,
simultaneously. Any home generator transfer switch will work on your
inverter system.

Given. It's the "plug this 3-prong into your Sam's Club inverter" part
I
don't like.

On another's comment in this thread, I've seen enough negative comments
(including some agreement from my expected vendor) about Xantrex to want
to
avoid them.

I recognize that solar and wind are relatively few in the total cruiser
universe, so my sample potential here is limited. However, plunging
ahead,
I solicit positive experience stories about inverters (and, for that
matter,
systems) used with large solar and wind inputs.

Thanks.

L8R

Skip (about to head back to the boat for another couple weeks, this
time,
this part, of the refit)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"There is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply
messing about in boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never
get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."