wrote:
Rosalie B. wrote:
wrote:

Here is a hypothetical question:

If somebody on a sailboat did NOT want to be found and had a 36 hour
head start leaving someplace like say the N. Florida Gulf coast, how
difficult would it be to find him.

This depends entirely on who is looking. If the CG wants to find
you,
they will track you from the beginning of the trip and the color of
the boat or whatever won't make any difference.

If the person can avoid being a person of interest to homeland
security or the CG so that neither of them has an interest in looking
for the person, then there's no need to take any special precautions
.
I assume the sailor not wanting to
be found could take some measures such as painting his boat a grey
color to match the water or even paint his sails, not use lights at
night, etc. What else can you think of to minimize his chances of
being found.

Probably the best thing to do would be to set off as if it was an
ordinary trip, say from Texas to Pensacola on the ICW, and file a
float plan with someone to that effect. Tell them if you don't turn
up in Pensacola in 2 weeks, to start to look. Then go the other
direction.

How difficult would it be in this case for conventional SAR to find
him? Remember, every 36 hours, the necesary search area quadruples

Why is the SAR looking for him?

until after a few days it covers the entire Gulf of Mexico and its
shoreline.
I think it might be possible for such a sailor to elude being found
for
a long time.

grandma Rosalie

Unfortunately, my life is not interesting enough for anybody to look
for me. The question is purely hypothetical as I am wondering if Low
Tech could win over High Tech. Concerning tracking by the CG, how
would the CG find him in the first place if all they knew was that he
had departed sometime in th elast 36 hours from a certain port? They
might use radar but I understand that many small sailboats show up
poorly on Radar. They might use visual search methods but that should
be easy to defeat. Specifically, how would the CG find him?
Concerning radar, I admit my ignorance of anything but theoretical
concepts as I have never used one. Would removal of metal lifelines
reduce the radar cross section? Removing the mast would be difficult
but I think it produces a minimal return anyway being rounded. Would
covering the engine with a "space blanket" (aluminized mylar) reduce
its radar cross section?

Sailboats do show up on radar, but this is a 'line of sight' thing (if
I am correct) and so they'd have to be near enough to be seen. Most
searches are done from the air IME, unless they already know where you
are. You can cover a whole lot more ground from the air. It's hard
to find a small object (i.e. a person or life raft) but a boat is a
bit bigger. I don't think any of those options would work well enough
to be worth the trouble.

My daughters BIL and his half brother took off from Miami to go to the
Bahamas at night in their boat (i.e. my SIL and his brother's boat)
and the CG stopped them suspecting drug running. Although the CG let
them proceed, they were tracking them (fortunately) so when they ran
aground on a uncharted rock so violently that the rocks came up
through the sole of the boat, breaking the BIL's neck, wrist and
severing an achilles tendon, they were able to get to them quite
quickly when they made a Mayday call on the VHF.

The sailor has to come to port sometime, someplace. That's when they
would be caught.


grandma Rosalie

In the mid -80s, i worked for a defense contractor. We heard budget
cuts were coming and were instructed to be on the lookout for civilian
applications of our work. One guy whose specialty was figuring ways to
reduce radar cross sections of things moaned to me that no civilian
would be interested in his work. I told him that if he could figger a
way to really reduce the radar cross section of a DC-3, I was sure I
could find some Columbian "Entrpreneurs" who would pay a lot for it.
He gave me a blank look at first and then said "Thats not funny". I
thought it was.

Did someone sell Michael Jackson a sailboat?

wrote:
Here is a hypothetical question:

If somebody on a sailboat did NOT want to be found and had a 36 hour
head start leaving someplace like say the N. Florida Gulf coast, how
difficult would it be to find him. I assume the sailor not wanting to
be found could take some measures such as painting his boat a grey
color to match the water or even paint his sails, not use lights at
night, etc. What else can you think of to minimize his chances of
being found.
How difficult would it be in this case for conventional SAR to find
him? Remember, every 36 hours, the necesary search area quadruples
until after a few days it covers the entire Gulf of Mexico and its
shoreline.
I think it might be possible for such a sailor to elude being found for
a long time.

Hahaha... what are you doing.. smuggling drugz..? They're the only people in that region of water
that don't really want to be found.

"Hypothetically" you'd have to take under consideration all types of radar (military ones pick out
small boats without much problem due to the different wavelengths of radar they use), SAR (Synthetic
Aperature Radar), infrared heat signature (hot engines flare brightly on sensor displays against the
cold black ocean).

Emission Control (EMCON) you'd have to ensure that you do not transmit anything by radio, turn off
your radar, cell phone, etc.

Since stealth technology is generally priced out of range for the average person, it helps by
removing the radar reflector. Greenpeace did this in the early 1980's and while keeping radio
silent, managed to sneak up and penetrate over 350 km into a restricted region in the south Pacific
that the French used to test nuclear bombs. They got close enough to the test site to see the bomb
suspended under the balloon. The moment they hoisted their reflector, their presence was detected
and the French navy reacted fast (and brutally).

I'm not sure how to use visual camoflauge.. perhaps to reduce visual detection by other ships would
be to paint the hull and sails a dull light gray. The "go-fasts" that regularly run that region are
painted black or dark green and operated at night for the most part. They use speed as their
primary way of avoiding interception.

Sail due east for a while then angle south. Unfortunately, OTHR (over the horizon radar) which can
accurately measure wave height and direction accurately works pretty well at detecting vessels of
around 10 metres in length and larger from over a thousand miles regardless of the hull material.
And there are at least two stations that provide blanket coverage of that particular region.

Hopefully a random search by regular drug interdiction patrol units in the south Gulf area won't
stumble upon the person. That is one of the most heavily surveilled areas of the USA and it
surprises me that people manage to get thru undetected. (actually many are detected but they are
unable to intercept). In the end, a certain amount of luck is required. And hopefully, no one will
call in a sighting when an "APB" goes out for such-and-such person and a sailboat matching some
description.

wrote
Here is a hypothetical question:

If somebody on a sailboat did NOT want to be found and had a 36 hour
head start leaving someplace like say the N. Florida Gulf coast, how
difficult would it be to find him.

I can't believe anyone is even responding to this wacko.

"D.B. Cooper" wrote in message
news:Qf0Gd.82025$6l.53359@pd7tw2no...
Hahaha... what are you doing.. smuggling drugz..? They're the only people
in that region of water
that don't really want to be found.

"Hypothetically" you'd have to take under consideration all types of radar
(military ones pick out
small boats without much problem due to the different wavelengths of radar
they use), SAR (Synthetic
Aperature Radar), infrared heat signature (hot engines flare brightly on
sensor displays against the
cold black ocean).

Emission Control (EMCON) you'd have to ensure that you do not transmit
anything by radio, turn off
your radar, cell phone, etc.

Since stealth technology is generally priced out of range for the average
person, it helps by
removing the radar reflector. Greenpeace did this in the early 1980's and
while keeping radio
silent, managed to sneak up and penetrate over 350 km into a restricted
region in the south Pacific
that the French used to test nuclear bombs. They got close enough to the
test site to see the bomb
suspended under the balloon. The moment they hoisted their reflector,
their presence was detected
and the French navy reacted fast (and brutally).

I'm not sure how to use visual camoflauge.. perhaps to reduce visual
detection by other ships would
be to paint the hull and sails a dull light gray. The "go-fasts" that
regularly run that region are
painted black or dark green and operated at night for the most part. They
use speed as their
primary way of avoiding interception.

Sail due east for a while then angle south. Unfortunately, OTHR (over the
horizon radar) which can
accurately measure wave height and direction accurately works pretty well
at detecting vessels of
around 10 metres in length and larger from over a thousand miles
regardless of the hull material.
And there are at least two stations that provide blanket coverage of that
particular region.

Hopefully a random search by regular drug interdiction patrol units in the
south Gulf area won't
stumble upon the person. That is one of the most heavily surveilled areas
of the USA and it
surprises me that people manage to get thru undetected. (actually many
are detected but they are
unable to intercept). In the end, a certain amount of luck is required.
And hopefully, no one will
call in a sighting when an "APB" goes out for such-and-such person and a
sailboat matching some
description.

wrote
Here is a hypothetical question:

If somebody on a sailboat did NOT want to be found and had a 36 hour
head start leaving someplace like say the N. Florida Gulf coast, how
difficult would it be to find him.

Doug Dotson wrote:
I can't believe anyone is even responding to this wacko.

"D.B. Cooper" wrote in message
news:Qf0Gd.82025$6l.53359@pd7tw2no...
Hahaha... what are you doing.. smuggling drugz..? They're the only
people
in that region of water
that don't really want to be found.

"Hypothetically" you'd have to take under consideration all types
of radar
(military ones pick out
small boats without much problem due to the different wavelengths
of radar
they use), SAR (Synthetic
Aperature Radar), infrared heat signature (hot engines flare
brightly on
sensor displays against the
cold black ocean).

Emission Control (EMCON) you'd have to ensure that you do not
transmit
anything by radio, turn off
your radar, cell phone, etc.

Since stealth technology is generally priced out of range for the
average
person, it helps by
removing the radar reflector. Greenpeace did this in the early
1980's and
while keeping radio
silent, managed to sneak up and penetrate over 350 km into a
restricted
region in the south Pacific
that the French used to test nuclear bombs. They got close enough
to the
test site to see the bomb
suspended under the balloon. The moment they hoisted their
reflector,
their presence was detected
and the French navy reacted fast (and brutally).

I'm not sure how to use visual camoflauge.. perhaps to reduce
visual
detection by other ships would
be to paint the hull and sails a dull light gray. The "go-fasts"
that
regularly run that region are
painted black or dark green and operated at night for the most
part. They
use speed as their
primary way of avoiding interception.

Sail due east for a while then angle south. Unfortunately, OTHR
(over the
horizon radar) which can
accurately measure wave height and direction accurately works
pretty well
at detecting vessels of
around 10 metres in length and larger from over a thousand miles
regardless of the hull material.
And there are at least two stations that provide blanket coverage
of that
particular region.

Hopefully a random search by regular drug interdiction patrol units
in the
south Gulf area won't
stumble upon the person. That is one of the most heavily
surveilled areas
of the USA and it
surprises me that people manage to get thru undetected. (actually
many
are detected but they are
unable to intercept). In the end, a certain amount of luck is
required.
And hopefully, no one will
call in a sighting when an "APB" goes out for such-and-such person
and a
sailboat matching some
description.

wrote
Here is a hypothetical question:

If somebody on a sailboat did NOT want to be found and had a 36
hour
head start leaving someplace like say the N. Florida Gulf coast,
how
difficult would it be to find him.



THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. I have nothing to hide, jeez. Really,
all this is about is my belief that some people are so reliant on high
tech stuff that they forget about elegant low tech solutions. Would
covering the entire boat with an aluminized "space blanket" with no
exposed edges or folds reduce the radar cross section much? I assume
the metal shrouds produce significant radar return so they are a
problem unless he somehow replaced them. We can assume that he either
doesnt run his engine or that he floods his cockpit partway to hide the
engine IR signature.
Go fast boats are probably easier to see than a small sailboat as their
power output is so high.

I guess that I am really just a high tech Luddite.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doug Dotson wrote:
I can't believe anyone is even responding to this wacko.

"D.B. Cooper" wrote in message
news:Qf0Gd.82025$6l.53359@pd7tw2no...
Hahaha... what are you doing.. smuggling drugz..? They're the only
people
in that region of water
that don't really want to be found.

"Hypothetically" you'd have to take under consideration all types
of radar
(military ones pick out
small boats without much problem due to the different wavelengths
of radar
they use), SAR (Synthetic
Aperature Radar), infrared heat signature (hot engines flare
brightly on
sensor displays against the
cold black ocean).

Emission Control (EMCON) you'd have to ensure that you do not
transmit
anything by radio, turn off
your radar, cell phone, etc.

Since stealth technology is generally priced out of range for the
average
person, it helps by
removing the radar reflector. Greenpeace did this in the early
1980's and
while keeping radio
silent, managed to sneak up and penetrate over 350 km into a
restricted
region in the south Pacific
that the French used to test nuclear bombs. They got close enough
to the
test site to see the bomb
suspended under the balloon. The moment they hoisted their
reflector,
their presence was detected
and the French navy reacted fast (and brutally).

I'm not sure how to use visual camoflauge.. perhaps to reduce
visual
detection by other ships would
be to paint the hull and sails a dull light gray. The "go-fasts"
that
regularly run that region are
painted black or dark green and operated at night for the most
part. They
use speed as their
primary way of avoiding interception.

Sail due east for a while then angle south. Unfortunately, OTHR
(over the
horizon radar) which can
accurately measure wave height and direction accurately works
pretty well
at detecting vessels of
around 10 metres in length and larger from over a thousand miles
regardless of the hull material.
And there are at least two stations that provide blanket coverage
of that
particular region.

Hopefully a random search by regular drug interdiction patrol units
in the
south Gulf area won't
stumble upon the person. That is one of the most heavily
surveilled areas
of the USA and it
surprises me that people manage to get thru undetected. (actually
many
are detected but they are
unable to intercept). In the end, a certain amount of luck is
required.
And hopefully, no one will
call in a sighting when an "APB" goes out for such-and-such person
and a
sailboat matching some
description.

wrote
Here is a hypothetical question:

If somebody on a sailboat did NOT want to be found and had a 36
hour
head start leaving someplace like say the N. Florida Gulf coast,
how
difficult would it be to find him.



THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. I have nothing to hide, jeez.

You'd better. I hope that the Homeland Security and the FBI see it that
way. I happen to know that they monitor alot of these newsgroups
including this one.

Really,
all this is about is my belief that some people are so reliant on high
tech stuff that they forget about elegant low tech solutions.

Elegant solutions to not being found? To what end?

Would
covering the entire boat with an aluminized "space blanket" with no
exposed edges or folds reduce the radar cross section much?

Why? Most folks waht their boat to be visable. What is your point?

I assume
the metal shrouds produce significant radar return so they are a
problem unless he somehow replaced them.

Actually, shrouds and masts produce very poor returns. They tend to
disperse the radar signal. Hence the use of radar reflectors.

We can assume that he either
doesnt run his engine or that he floods his cockpit partway to hide the
engine IR signature.

Just fill the cockpit with the drugs.

Go fast boats are probably easier to see than a small sailboat as their
power output is so high.

I guess. So what are you trying to run away from?

dbohara,
This is funny, if you used the space blanket with the reflective side
out you'd light up like a bulb on the radar screen. I believe stealth
technology is based on absorbing the energy and then having acute angles
on the surface so the reflection that is left is diverted away. Floods
his cockpit? I don't think the engines would like this. The solution is
LEAD!!! Construct the whole boat of LEAD!!! :-)
Paul

wrote:
snipped
THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. I have nothing to hide, jeez. Really,
all this is about is my belief that some people are so reliant on high
tech stuff that they forget about elegant low tech solutions. Would
covering the entire boat with an aluminized "space blanket" with no
exposed edges or folds reduce the radar cross section much? I assume
the metal shrouds produce significant radar return so they are a
problem unless he somehow replaced them. We can assume that he either
doesnt run his engine or that he floods his cockpit partway to hide the
engine IR signature.
Go fast boats are probably easier to see than a small sailboat as their
power output is so high.

On 15 Jan 2005 08:57:46 -0800, wrote:

////
THIS IS PURELY HYPOTHETICAL. I have nothing to hide, jeez. Really,
all this is about is my belief that some people are so reliant on high
tech stuff that they forget about elegant low tech solutions. Would
covering the entire boat with an aluminized "space blanket" with no
exposed edges or folds reduce the radar cross section much?

This answer is PURELY HYPOTHETIC.

Covering a hull with aluminum foil would increase its radar
cross-section from quite a lot to an awful lot.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK