On 18 Nov 2004 17:58:07 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrotf:

While I'm sure you are sincere, you're thinking is classic
environmentalist/sail boater hypocrisy.

In that you think you are being environmentally superior but you seem forget
that almost everything on you boat has been made with or from polluting
products or processes.

Will your boat have teak on it? Was it farm raised? If so how much natural
vegetation was destroyed/displaced to grow it?
Will you be varnishing or oiling it?

What are you batteries made from? Environmentally friendly lead and acid?

What fuel will power your stove?

Any plastics on your boat? Aluminum? Stainless steel?
How much oil/energy was used to process/make them?

The list goes on and on.

And by the way, what will you be doing with that black and gray water on your
boat?

Oh wait I see, you'll:

"discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it."

Classic, just classic.

Do the coastal and inshore waters in your world never mix?
No tides?
Or is it just an "out of sight, out of mind" thing?

When your boat comes to the end of it's life how do you intend to recycle it?
Or will the: "currents and large wather masses" take care of that too?

While I believe in doing all we can to keep the earth clean and I enjoy
sailing, I can't see myself sitting in my plastic hulled, teak trimmed sail
boat with toxic bottom paint on it reading by my lead/acid battery or genset
powered light, while perhaps my Freon based aircon/ fridge units are keeping
things cool, feeling all superior to next guy down the mooring field in his
stink pot.



God I love a
good rant, Capt. Bill

So I guess everything from the hand of humanity is evil. If so,
please do the world a favor and promptly dispose of yourself in an
enviromentally friendly fashion.

The reality is that feces and urine are perfectly natural substances
and the most natural thing to do with them is to return them to the
environment where their constituents can be recycled by the sea or
earth. Dumping oily bilge water is indeed another thing entirely.
Yes, there are many things on a boat made by human ingenuity and
sometimes there are consequences to using them but in the end
everything is a compromise and finding the best ones out there is the
best we can do.

If one adapts a chicken little attitude that everything is bad and the
sky is falling one ends up doing nothing at all which does not
contribute to the world either. Best bet is to live as best you can.
Yes, sailing gently on the waters is best, doing as little to pollute
as possible, but worrying about something as natural as feces and
urine is silly in the long run. Considering the millions of tons that
sea creatures add to the waters, the little bit that comes from human
vessel discharge is indeed miniscule and there is no indication that
human feces are in any way more toxic or less natural than those of
our finned kin.

I sail gently because it is practical and right, but discharging
gray/black water, even if done close to shore, is not going to cause
an ecological catastrophe. Indeed, discharge from either lectrasan
or chlorinator heads is much cleaner than that of sea animals.

Weebles Wobble
(but they don't fall down)

Subject: More head trip (plumbing issues)
From:

On 18 Nov 2004 17:58:07 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrotf:

While I'm sure you are sincere, you're thinking is classic
environmentalist/sail boater hypocrisy.

In that you think you are being environmentally superior but you seem forget
that almost everything on you boat has been made with or from polluting
products or processes.

Will your boat have teak on it? Was it farm raised? If so how much natural
vegetation was destroyed/displaced to grow it?
Will you be varnishing or oiling it?

What are you batteries made from? Environmentally friendly lead and acid?

What fuel will power your stove?

Any plastics on your boat? Aluminum? Stainless steel?
How much oil/energy was used to process/make them?

The list goes on and on.

And by the way, what will you be doing with that black and gray water on
your
boat?

Oh wait I see, you'll:

"discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it."

Classic, just classic.

Do the coastal and inshore waters in your world never mix?
No tides?
Or is it just an "out of sight, out of mind" thing?

When your boat comes to the end of it's life how do you intend to recycle
it?
Or will the: "currents and large wather masses" take care of that too?

While I believe in doing all we can to keep the earth clean and I enjoy
sailing, I can't see myself sitting in my plastic hulled, teak trimmed sail
boat with toxic bottom paint on it reading by my lead/acid battery or genset
powered light, while perhaps my Freon based aircon/ fridge units are keeping
things cool, feeling all superior to next guy down the mooring field in his
stink pot.



God I
love a
good rant, Capt. Bill

So I guess everything from the hand of humanity is evil. If so,
please do the world a favor and promptly dispose of yourself in an
enviromentally friendly fashion.

The reality is that feces and urine are perfectly natural substances
and the most natural thing to do with them is to return them to the
environment where their constituents can be recycled by the sea or
earth. Dumping oily bilge water is indeed another thing entirely.
Yes, there are many things on a boat made by human ingenuity and
sometimes there are consequences to using them but in the end
everything is a compromise and finding the best ones out there is the
best we can do.

If one adapts a chicken little attitude that everything is bad and the
sky is falling one ends up doing nothing at all which does not
contribute to the world either. Best bet is to live as best you can.
Yes, sailing gently on the waters is best, doing as little to pollute
as possible, but worrying about something as natural as feces and
urine is silly in the long run. Considering the millions of tons that
sea creatures add to the waters, the little bit that comes from human
vessel discharge is indeed miniscule and there is no indication that
human feces are in any way more toxic or less natural than those of
our finned kin.

I sail gently because it is practical and right, but discharging
gray/black water, even if done close to shore, is not going to cause
an ecological catastrophe. Indeed, discharge from either lectrasan
or chlorinator heads is much cleaner than that of sea animals.


We seem to be in total agreement.

Capt. Bill

wrote:
The reality is that feces and urine are perfectly natural substances
and the most natural thing to do with them is to return them to the
environment where their constituents can be recycled by the sea or
earth.

I guess that's why you take a big dump in your kitchen sink every night
before dinner?

Your reality seems to be a bit ignorant of basic ecology & biology.

DSK

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:44:18 -0500, DSK wrote:

wrote:
The reality is that feces and urine are perfectly natural substances
and the most natural thing to do with them is to return them to the
environment where their constituents can be recycled by the sea or
earth.

I guess that's why you take a big dump in your kitchen sink every night
before dinner?

Your reality seems to be a bit ignorant of basic ecology & biology.

DSK

No, I don't **** in my sink, but then again, if you eat organically
grown foods, they are fertilized with feces.


Weebles Wobble
(but they don't fall down)

wrote:
No, I don't **** in my sink, but then again, if you eat organically
grown foods, they are fertilized with feces.

If you avoid eating "organically grown foods" (is there really such a
thing as inorganically grown?) with the **** still clinging to it, then
maybe you begin to understand.

In the right place, in the right amounts, feces & urine do no harm to
the environment. When directly deposited in areas where it's not
currently part of the local ecology, then it changes (ie damages) the
local ecology.

Due to vastly increased human population, we either need to contain our
waste products in local ecologies that can handle it, or simply turn the
whole world into a cesspool.

Your call.

DSK

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:00:07 -0500, DSK wrote:


In the right place, in the right amounts, feces & urine do no harm to
the environment. When directly deposited in areas where it's not
currently part of the local ecology, then it changes (ie damages) the
local ecology.

And exactly where, prey tell, is a place in the ocean that is not a
fish bathroom? If you really want to be exact, most fish populations
are relatively close to shore so the rules limiting discharge in
coastal waters actually runs counter to what is natural.

Due to vastly increased human population, we either need to contain our
waste products in local ecologies that can handle it, or simply turn the
whole world into a cesspool.

Compared to the number of fish - compared to the amount of fish waste
discharged - human discharges into water are minor indeed.

Your call.

yep



Weebles Wobble
(but they don't fall down)

wrote:
And exactly where, prey tell, is a place in the ocean that is not a
fish bathroom?

Does the difference between humans and fishes pass right through your
mental digestive tract without leaving any thought residue?

DSK

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:45:06 -0500, DSK wrote:

wrote:
And exactly where, prey tell, is a place in the ocean that is not a
fish bathroom?

Does the difference between humans and fishes pass right through your
mental digestive tract without leaving any thought residue?

DSK

And what, prey tell, oh expert in the feces, is the difference between
human feces and fish feces? Since both are the final result of a
basically identical process, the breaking down of organic compounds,
seems to be little if any difference. When you consider marine
mammals I would think the differences would be even less.


Weebles Wobble
(but they don't fall down)