This got lost in the sea clutter of someone changing the title of my
original post, and wasn't responded to. Having just returned from yet
another trip to work on the boat, and getting to the point of installation
on the new gear, this is pertinent anew:

Date: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:30 PM

OK, now having returned from my first plumbing expedition, I see that there
are some responses. Peggie, my apologies for the paging - it wasn't I :{))
My title was "- Pipe down, you'se guys! he said Archly" - a Swiftie which
was lost in the translation...

(my prior)

I went to check it out and found that the conduit is

actually Schedule 40 grey pipe.

So, my question is, would this work for the Schedule 40 pipe
installations

in sanitary service,


(Peggie's prior)
Ah...I did miss that part. Yes, it can be used in sanitation systems, but
is only recommended for long straight runs. And it must be "soft-coupled"
to anything fixed in the system--toilet, tank, thru-hull, y-valve,
overboard discharge pump--with enough hose to provide shock absorption and
protection from cracking due to hull flexing...so unless you have a long
straight run of 10' of more (unlikely in any properly designed system on a
boat under about 60') you'd have so many unions in the plumbing (potential
leaks) that it's not worth doing.

Plumb your system with AVS96 sanitation hose (the mfr's original name for
the same hose SeaLand sold as the "OdorSafe" brand for a number of years,
now sold direct for $5/ft cut to any length), PVC fittings are ok.

I'm glad to see that it's available inexpensively (relatively speaking).
Since our last exchange on the subject, what's happened about the SLOSafe
replacement made in Italy? And, I was unable to find info about fittings.
Do you know if aussiegroup handles that, as well?

Back to the subject at hand, if getting them in is as easy as getting them
out, I'm all for not doing it again. Granted, I had to take out something
on the order of double, in that I removed the aft Lectra-San, with its
attendant very long runs of hose, *plus* the very tall vented loop runs
(seems just *asking* for trouble to have to pump it that high in order to
get it out of the boat at the bottom! - you can see it in the /engine
room/electrical panels of the boatpix from the below URL), but the wrestling
match I had to go through isn't something I'm looking forward to
duplicating! On the subject of the vented loop, it's *right* on the
centerline, and, based on the lavatory in the aft head, considerably above
the water line. On the center line, how far above the water line does it
have to be for safety? Above any level of conceivable heel's waterline?
Given that it's full of water and other crap (pardon the expression), all
the time, against the duckbill, it makes me wonder.

On the subject of joints, I'm of distinctly curious mind. While my current
home isn't this way, my prior home had hundreds of feet of PVC pipe run,
with all the necessary ells, Ts and other fittings, all successfully
carrying high pressure hot and cold water. With the hot, there was notable
deformation of the pipe as it expanded and contracted due to hot vs
room-temp water, over long runs. No leaks, no failures, in 25 years.
Properly supported, I am clueless as to how a no-pressure (well, aside from
the 2.5' head) 1.5" line would be at risk of failure

If I keep the existing height of the vented loop, that's about 2.5 feet each
way, plus the elbows to and from. The "supply" is about 1.5 or so feet, and
the waste out is another 3 feet or so (currently - I may have a thru-hull
available closer when I'm through ripping out stuff in there). If it won't
make the corners readily, I'd have to use ells, anyway, doubling my joints.

The current vented loop has a screw-in couple of SeaLand connectors or the
like. I'd see using a screw-in PVC with Teflon tape, and a coupler joint to
the pipe (no corroding clamps - or, better, a nipple/joint, saving me one
more glue-up on each side). If I had to redo it, I could just saw it off
and start over (unscrew and insert new after sawing). I'd have two
terminations of SeaLand PVC, and 8 clamps (two each at both ends of both
terminations), and very little hose, and only two elbows plus the joints at
the vented loop. So, I'd have the same number of clamps, and the same
number of hose connections, but only a foot or two of hose, and the rest
solid installation.

Am I missing something?

The forward head isn't as convenient in straight runs, so that one likely
will have mostly hose. I'm glad for the savings with the lower prices...

The stuff I took out of the aft head was either exhaust hose or very brittle
and fully saturated white pipe. I rather suspect it was not the SeaLand
OdorSafe :{/)

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy), champing at the bit to cast off, now that refit
is actually under way!

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Back to the subject at hand, if getting them in is as easy as getting them
out, I'm all for not doing it again. Granted, I had to take out something
on the order of double, in that I removed the aft Lectra-San, with its
attendant very long runs of hose...

There shouldn't be any long runs of hose in a Lectra/San installation.
It should be installed within 6' of the toilet and also within 6' of the
discharge thru-hull. Two toilets CAN be connected to the same unit, but
only if the L/S can be within 6' of both. I think you made a mistake in
removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a tank?


, *plus* the very tall vented loop runs...

Necessary for any below waterline thru-hull connection...so you gained
nothing there.

On the center line, how far above the water line does it
have to be for safety? Above any level of conceivable heel's waterline?

Above waterline at any anglel of heel.

Given that it's full of water and other crap (pardon the expression), all
the time, against the duckbill, it makes me wonder.

Any manual marine toilet that's working anywhere near factory specs can
move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode...so if you learn how to
flush your toilet correctly, there shouldn't be any water or waste in
the line between the toilet and top of the loop to run back down into
the bowl.


On the subject of joints, I'm of distinctly curious mind. While my current
home isn't this way, my prior home had hundreds of feet of PVC pipe run,
with all the necessary ells, Ts and other fittings, all successfully
carrying high pressure hot and cold water.... Am I missing something?

What you're missing is: houses stay put...they don't get tossed around
by wind and wave. Boats do.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

....CUT...
removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Paolo

Paolo Zini wrote:
...CUT...

removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Hi, Y'all,

Well, things are progressing on the boat - I'll go back again, this time for
two weeks, just after Thanksgiving week. Removal of the forward head
plumbing, save the hoses to and from the holding tank (only pump up/out,
can't dump), is on the list if I get the reefer done. However...

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
Back to the subject at hand, if getting them in is as easy as getting
them
out, I'm all for not doing it again. Granted, I had to take out
something
on the order of double, in that I removed the aft Lectra-San, with its
attendant very long runs of hose...

There shouldn't be any long runs of hose in a Lectra/San installation.

In our boat's case, the forward unit is well installed, I think, being in
the lavatory, right next to the head. However, in the aft, there was over
6' of run both to and from the unit to the drop - and the intake had to
clear the high vapor lock before heading downhill to it. Not a good
location for it to be installed, I don't think, though, in that instance,
short of having it on a shelf over the stool, I don't know where else they'd
have put it. In any case, we'll be in clear discharge areas all the time,
and for those exceptions which may occur, there's the forward head.

It should be installed within 6' of the toilet and also within 6' of the
discharge thru-hull. Two toilets CAN be connected to the same unit, but
only if the L/S can be within 6' of both. I think you made a mistake in
removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

Heh. I spoke with someone who told me they had a "super unit" of some sort,
which LS maintained allowed them to dump (well, throughput) into
no-discharge zones. They didn't have a holding tank aboard for that reason.
In our case, we'll have one, should it ever be an issue - but until someone
changes the ocean rules where we're going, it won't matter.

As to the later poster wanting to know if we enjoyed swimming in our own
effluvia, it's a fair question. However, I don't think there's nearly any
place we'll be where folks are making an effort to be retentive, so to
speak, so we'd be swimming in theirs, too. Of course, that doesn't
acknowledge all the fish and porpoises and other things in addition to the
shoreside impacts on anchoring areas. Ya pretty much gotta stay ashore and
use municipal water if you want to avoid any contamination at all, or have,
as one of the regulars here does, a distillation system for your own water.

So, we'll just be prudent about where we stop and make sure there's some
form of natural washing going on...


, *plus* the very tall vented loop runs...

Necessary for any below waterline thru-hull connection...so you gained
nothing there.

On the center line, how far above the water line does it
have to be for safety? Above any level of conceivable heel's waterline?

Above waterline at any anglel of heel.

Given that it's full of water and other crap (pardon the expression),
all
the time, against the duckbill, it makes me wonder.

Any manual marine toilet that's working anywhere near factory specs can
move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode...so if you learn how to
flush your toilet correctly, there shouldn't be any water or waste in
the line between the toilet and top of the loop to run back down into
the bowl.

This has me very curious. You're saying that enough
speed/pressure/whatever-moves-it is developed, in an anti-siphon environment
(the vented loop), that I can clear a 1.5" line for what is (in the new
installation) about 3.5-4 feet by dry flushing?

I buy that I might be able to flush solids, with water, that far, if I'm
aggressive enough with my volume (and the Raritans we have probably put in a
cup per stroke or so), but I don't see how that pipe can empty, dry pump or
not. I'd have to think the surface tension of the water would not be
sufficient to prevent the water running past the bubble at the edges, as you
recharge between strokes. I'd be thrilled to think I could really empty it,
as that - with a straight discharge - would go a long way to keep odor down
(should be only sea water to make odor, that way). Help me out with my
physics, here?


On the subject of joints, I'm of distinctly curious mind. While my
current
home isn't this way, my prior home had hundreds of feet of PVC pipe run,
with all the necessary ells, Ts and other fittings, all successfully
carrying high pressure hot and cold water.... Am I missing something?

What you're missing is: houses stay put...they don't get tossed around
by wind and wave. Boats do.

Well, yes, of course. But if I secure a large pipe, in a short run, under
next to no pressure, it's not going to move. In the house example, you
could see the distortion of the hot water pipe from expansion vs resting
state as hot water entered, and see it jump as the water was shut off and
turned on - but it all stayed together. In the boat, we'll use hose as
movement absorbers.

Not trying to be argumentative - just understand why I shouldn't be doing as
SeaLand recommends...

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"

By the way, I promoted your book to several people complaining of stinky
heads, and saw many of them being bought from the vendor table at the SSCA
Gam in Melbourne the first weekend in November...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

I always read with attention you post and I have learned a lot from youi;
but this time I can't agree with you.
just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

I don't speak about what is legal.
I express my PERSONAL opinion about what is correct.
My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal waters,
also soapy water...

Please discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it.
Or dump it at marina, where it will be sent to a serious (i hope...)
treatment plant...
If it isn't clear, drinkable water don't dump it in costal waters please.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.

I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?) this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.
Maybe that is legal and safe, but is s**t. You would like it in your
swimming pool? No? don't dump it in our swimming pool, please.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

I will continue to read your posts with greatest consideration.

Paolo

Paolo Zini wrote:

I always read with attention you post and I have learned a lot from youi;
but this time I can't agree with you.

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.


I don't speak about what is legal.
I express my PERSONAL opinion about what is correct.
My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal waters,
also soapy water...

Please discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it.
Or dump it at marina, where it will be sent to a serious (i hope...)
treatment plant...
If it isn't clear, drinkable water don't dump it in costal waters please.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.


I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?) this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.
Maybe that is legal and safe, but is s**t. You would like it in your
swimming pool? No? don't dump it in our swimming pool, please.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

To be consistent then, your opinion should include having a little chat
with all the fish ****ting in your pool, see if you can get them to stop.

Stephen

Paolo Zini wrote:
I express my PERSONAL opinion about what is correct.

And you're certainly entitled to it! But let's see what we can do to
make it a more informed opinion.

My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal waters,
also soapy water...

That would be a valid concern in many parts of the world where
detergents still contain phosphates and other pollutants, but here in
the US the Federal Water Pollution Control Act of 1977 required the
removal of all pollutants from all dishwashing liquids, laundry
detergents, etc--even bilge cleaners and degreasers--sold here. Even TSP
(TriSodiumPhosphate) no longer contains any phosphate...it's been
replaced by a synthetic non-polluting substitute. So the only
pollutants in soapy water are from whatever the soap was used to
clean...for instance, an oily bilge.


Please discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it.

A flush at time is ok...but a tankful even at sea has a definite
negative impact on the immediate surrounding waters and its inhabitants
before it's diluted and dissipated.

Or dump it at marina, where it will be sent to a serious (i hope...)
treatment plant...

That may or may not overflow and dump it into the waters without
treating it. That's a major problem in some areas...in fact, the EPA has
granted more than 100 New England cities and towns exemptions from
federal standards because their sewage treatment facilities are so old,
or inadequate for an increased population, or in such disrepair--or any
or all of the above. Exactly one week to the day after RI's statewide
no discharge law went into effect, a massive sewage treatment plant
spill closed all the beaches and shellfish beds for several days.

I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?)

So far...but--

this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.

No...that's a common misconception among "no discharge" proponents.
First, it assumes that every flush is fecal matter...when in fact,
unless someone onboard has a serious gastrointestinal problem, only one
or at most two flushes person do...the remaining average 4 toilet
visits/day/person are urine only. Second, the average person
output--including solids--is only about 8 oz...the average flush
including flush water is about half a gallon. So the treated discharge
is highly diluted to begin with. Third, the hypochlorous acid
(chlorine) created by the Lectra/San not only reduces bacteria count to
less than 10/100 mililiter, it also bleaches as it treats...so what
comes out is only about a half gallon that closely resembles skim milk
that's been cut about 2:1 with water....so "thin" and pale in color
that, unless the thru-hull is very close to the waterline, it's totally
unnoticeable to anyone who didn't happen to be diving under the boat
next the thru-hull at the time the toilet is flushed. In fact, I'd bet
real money that you've been moored next to boats using Lectra/Sans and
didn't know it.

Maybe that is legal and safe, but is s**t.

You remind me of the time I was aboard a friend's boat...we were tossing
stale crackers to a flock of about 20 Canada geese gathered off his
stern...doing what geese do whenever the urge strikes--which is often
and plentiful. He was most emphatic about how he didn't want to swim in
$*** and didn't want his kids swimming in it either. But he didn't even
bat an eye when, just after we'd exhausted our supply of stale crackers,
his son dove off the stern of the boat right into the flock of geese. I
managed not to say a word, although I nearly strangled on the effort it
took.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

Again...you're entitled to it! But my own personal opinion is that for
you, perception is 99% of reality...if you were in an anchorage where a
boat was using a Lectra/San and you didn't know it, you'd have no
problem happily swimming around them--and most likely have done so...but
if you found out, you wouldn't go back into the water...'cuz for all of
us, it's mind over matter...once the mind has firmly established its
prejudices, it's amost impossible for reason to overcome them.

I will continue to read your posts with greatest consideration.

And I will continue to respect your opinions. In fact, I doubt that I'll
succeed in changing any of yours...but that's ok...all I can do is try.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

As usual your reply is informative and kind.

My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal
waters,
also soapy water...

That would be a valid concern in many parts of the world where
....CUT...
. So the only
pollutants in soapy water are from whatever the soap was used to
clean...for instance, an oily bilge.

You aven't got my point: disregarding the legal point or even the chemical
pollution, the soap can be safe and not chemically polluttant (maybe...)
But you can guarantee that the oil (only to remain with your example...)
that the soap as removed is also safe and not polluttant?
And even if it is safe, do you tink that a place full of soap bubbles and
oil and watermelon seeds floating around is nice place where to send the
boys to swim?

......

I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?)

So far...but--

this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.

No...that's a common misconception among "no discharge" proponents.
First, it assumes that every flush is fecal matter...when in fact,
unless someone onboard has a serious gastrointestinal problem,

ROTFL...

only one
or at most two flushes person do...the remaining average 4 toilet
visits/day/person are urine only.

I do believe that your urine don't stinks... mine definitively do...
OK, only kidding.

Second, the average person
output--including solids--is only about 8 oz...the average flush
including flush water is about half a gallon. So the treated discharge
is highly diluted to begin with. Third, the hypochlorous acid
(chlorine) created by the Lectra/San not only reduces bacteria count to
less than 10/100 mililiter, it also bleaches as it treats...so what
comes out is only about a half gallon that closely resembles skim milk
that's been cut about 2:1

Another lesson learned: while swimming, stay away from that looks like
milk...

with water....so "thin" and pale in color
that, unless the thru-hull is very close to the waterline, it's totally

Maybe that the perfect arrangement is your lectra/san discarging into a
tank, to be dumped at marina or 3 NM away from coast. This would solve also
the odor problems... or not?

I would like a similar solution, but, it as obvious, it has down aspects:
1) it needs power. Power, in small sailboat, is a constant concern. You
aren't guaranteed to have it.
2) it needs maintenance. I don't bet on accuracy of maintenance, when, safe
or not, all is dumped overboard...

I have checked also the prices of lectra/san... and it is expensive...

I am building a cat and I was planning to install a Lavac head (manual, no
power requirements...) with tank.
But msd+tank appears interesting...
It is expensive and needs space, but in case of failure of msd the tank can
save the day.

Paolo

Don't forget ducks, seagulls, etc.
To add a little more confusion to the marine water pollution arguments, the

journal SCIENCE (29 Mar. 2002) reported on a study which tracked the

biological sources of fecal bacterial in Virginia watersheds. Only 15% of E.

coli bacteria had a human origin (i.e. septic runoff and boat discharge).
The

remainder came from other animal hosts, the largest contributor being

waterfowl with 32.5% of the total. Similar studies are being carried out in

California, Washington, and Oregon.



Whats next? Diapers for geese? What about whales and everything else in the
ocean? Who's gonna change them?

--


Keith
__
There are three simple rules for making a smooth return to your slip.
Unfortunately no one knows what they are.

You would like it in your
swimming pool? No? don't dump it in our swimming pool, please.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

To be consistent then, your opinion should include having a little chat
with all the fish ****ting in your pool, see if you can get them to stop.

Stephen