This got lost in the sea clutter of someone changing the title of my
original post, and wasn't responded to. Having just returned from yet
another trip to work on the boat, and getting to the point of installation
on the new gear, this is pertinent anew:

Date: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:30 PM

OK, now having returned from my first plumbing expedition, I see that there
are some responses. Peggie, my apologies for the paging - it wasn't I :{))
My title was "- Pipe down, you'se guys! he said Archly" - a Swiftie which
was lost in the translation...

(my prior)

I went to check it out and found that the conduit is

actually Schedule 40 grey pipe.

So, my question is, would this work for the Schedule 40 pipe
installations

in sanitary service,


(Peggie's prior)
Ah...I did miss that part. Yes, it can be used in sanitation systems, but
is only recommended for long straight runs. And it must be "soft-coupled"
to anything fixed in the system--toilet, tank, thru-hull, y-valve,
overboard discharge pump--with enough hose to provide shock absorption and
protection from cracking due to hull flexing...so unless you have a long
straight run of 10' of more (unlikely in any properly designed system on a
boat under about 60') you'd have so many unions in the plumbing (potential
leaks) that it's not worth doing.

Plumb your system with AVS96 sanitation hose (the mfr's original name for
the same hose SeaLand sold as the "OdorSafe" brand for a number of years,
now sold direct for $5/ft cut to any length), PVC fittings are ok.

I'm glad to see that it's available inexpensively (relatively speaking).
Since our last exchange on the subject, what's happened about the SLOSafe
replacement made in Italy? And, I was unable to find info about fittings.
Do you know if aussiegroup handles that, as well?

Back to the subject at hand, if getting them in is as easy as getting them
out, I'm all for not doing it again. Granted, I had to take out something
on the order of double, in that I removed the aft Lectra-San, with its
attendant very long runs of hose, *plus* the very tall vented loop runs
(seems just *asking* for trouble to have to pump it that high in order to
get it out of the boat at the bottom! - you can see it in the /engine
room/electrical panels of the boatpix from the below URL), but the wrestling
match I had to go through isn't something I'm looking forward to
duplicating! On the subject of the vented loop, it's *right* on the
centerline, and, based on the lavatory in the aft head, considerably above
the water line. On the center line, how far above the water line does it
have to be for safety? Above any level of conceivable heel's waterline?
Given that it's full of water and other crap (pardon the expression), all
the time, against the duckbill, it makes me wonder.

On the subject of joints, I'm of distinctly curious mind. While my current
home isn't this way, my prior home had hundreds of feet of PVC pipe run,
with all the necessary ells, Ts and other fittings, all successfully
carrying high pressure hot and cold water. With the hot, there was notable
deformation of the pipe as it expanded and contracted due to hot vs
room-temp water, over long runs. No leaks, no failures, in 25 years.
Properly supported, I am clueless as to how a no-pressure (well, aside from
the 2.5' head) 1.5" line would be at risk of failure

If I keep the existing height of the vented loop, that's about 2.5 feet each
way, plus the elbows to and from. The "supply" is about 1.5 or so feet, and
the waste out is another 3 feet or so (currently - I may have a thru-hull
available closer when I'm through ripping out stuff in there). If it won't
make the corners readily, I'd have to use ells, anyway, doubling my joints.

The current vented loop has a screw-in couple of SeaLand connectors or the
like. I'd see using a screw-in PVC with Teflon tape, and a coupler joint to
the pipe (no corroding clamps - or, better, a nipple/joint, saving me one
more glue-up on each side). If I had to redo it, I could just saw it off
and start over (unscrew and insert new after sawing). I'd have two
terminations of SeaLand PVC, and 8 clamps (two each at both ends of both
terminations), and very little hose, and only two elbows plus the joints at
the vented loop. So, I'd have the same number of clamps, and the same
number of hose connections, but only a foot or two of hose, and the rest
solid installation.

Am I missing something?

The forward head isn't as convenient in straight runs, so that one likely
will have mostly hose. I'm glad for the savings with the lower prices...

The stuff I took out of the aft head was either exhaust hose or very brittle
and fully saturated white pipe. I rather suspect it was not the SeaLand
OdorSafe :{/)

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy), champing at the bit to cast off, now that refit
is actually under way!

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Back to the subject at hand, if getting them in is as easy as getting them
out, I'm all for not doing it again. Granted, I had to take out something
on the order of double, in that I removed the aft Lectra-San, with its
attendant very long runs of hose...

There shouldn't be any long runs of hose in a Lectra/San installation.
It should be installed within 6' of the toilet and also within 6' of the
discharge thru-hull. Two toilets CAN be connected to the same unit, but
only if the L/S can be within 6' of both. I think you made a mistake in
removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a tank?


, *plus* the very tall vented loop runs...

Necessary for any below waterline thru-hull connection...so you gained
nothing there.

On the center line, how far above the water line does it
have to be for safety? Above any level of conceivable heel's waterline?

Above waterline at any anglel of heel.

Given that it's full of water and other crap (pardon the expression), all
the time, against the duckbill, it makes me wonder.

Any manual marine toilet that's working anywhere near factory specs can
move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode...so if you learn how to
flush your toilet correctly, there shouldn't be any water or waste in
the line between the toilet and top of the loop to run back down into
the bowl.


On the subject of joints, I'm of distinctly curious mind. While my current
home isn't this way, my prior home had hundreds of feet of PVC pipe run,
with all the necessary ells, Ts and other fittings, all successfully
carrying high pressure hot and cold water.... Am I missing something?

What you're missing is: houses stay put...they don't get tossed around
by wind and wave. Boats do.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

....CUT...
removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Paolo

Paolo Zini wrote:
...CUT...

removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

I always read with attention you post and I have learned a lot from youi;
but this time I can't agree with you.
just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

I don't speak about what is legal.
I express my PERSONAL opinion about what is correct.
My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal waters,
also soapy water...

Please discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it.
Or dump it at marina, where it will be sent to a serious (i hope...)
treatment plant...
If it isn't clear, drinkable water don't dump it in costal waters please.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.

I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?) this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.
Maybe that is legal and safe, but is s**t. You would like it in your
swimming pool? No? don't dump it in our swimming pool, please.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

I will continue to read your posts with greatest consideration.

Paolo

Paolo Zini wrote:

I always read with attention you post and I have learned a lot from youi;
but this time I can't agree with you.

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.


I don't speak about what is legal.
I express my PERSONAL opinion about what is correct.
My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal waters,
also soapy water...

Please discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it.
Or dump it at marina, where it will be sent to a serious (i hope...)
treatment plant...
If it isn't clear, drinkable water don't dump it in costal waters please.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.


I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?) this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.
Maybe that is legal and safe, but is s**t. You would like it in your
swimming pool? No? don't dump it in our swimming pool, please.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

To be consistent then, your opinion should include having a little chat
with all the fish ****ting in your pool, see if you can get them to stop.

Stephen

Paolo Zini wrote:
I express my PERSONAL opinion about what is correct.

And you're certainly entitled to it! But let's see what we can do to
make it a more informed opinion.

My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal waters,
also soapy water...

That would be a valid concern in many parts of the world where
detergents still contain phosphates and other pollutants, but here in
the US the Federal Water Pollution Control Act of 1977 required the
removal of all pollutants from all dishwashing liquids, laundry
detergents, etc--even bilge cleaners and degreasers--sold here. Even TSP
(TriSodiumPhosphate) no longer contains any phosphate...it's been
replaced by a synthetic non-polluting substitute. So the only
pollutants in soapy water are from whatever the soap was used to
clean...for instance, an oily bilge.


Please discarge your waste few miles away from coast... where currents and
large wather masses can dilute and dissolve it.

A flush at time is ok...but a tankful even at sea has a definite
negative impact on the immediate surrounding waters and its inhabitants
before it's diluted and dissipated.

Or dump it at marina, where it will be sent to a serious (i hope...)
treatment plant...

That may or may not overflow and dump it into the waters without
treating it. That's a major problem in some areas...in fact, the EPA has
granted more than 100 New England cities and towns exemptions from
federal standards because their sewage treatment facilities are so old,
or inadequate for an increased population, or in such disrepair--or any
or all of the above. Exactly one week to the day after RI's statewide
no discharge law went into effect, a massive sewage treatment plant
spill closed all the beaches and shellfish beds for several days.

I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?)

So far...but--

this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.

No...that's a common misconception among "no discharge" proponents.
First, it assumes that every flush is fecal matter...when in fact,
unless someone onboard has a serious gastrointestinal problem, only one
or at most two flushes person do...the remaining average 4 toilet
visits/day/person are urine only. Second, the average person
output--including solids--is only about 8 oz...the average flush
including flush water is about half a gallon. So the treated discharge
is highly diluted to begin with. Third, the hypochlorous acid
(chlorine) created by the Lectra/San not only reduces bacteria count to
less than 10/100 mililiter, it also bleaches as it treats...so what
comes out is only about a half gallon that closely resembles skim milk
that's been cut about 2:1 with water....so "thin" and pale in color
that, unless the thru-hull is very close to the waterline, it's totally
unnoticeable to anyone who didn't happen to be diving under the boat
next the thru-hull at the time the toilet is flushed. In fact, I'd bet
real money that you've been moored next to boats using Lectra/Sans and
didn't know it.

Maybe that is legal and safe, but is s**t.

You remind me of the time I was aboard a friend's boat...we were tossing
stale crackers to a flock of about 20 Canada geese gathered off his
stern...doing what geese do whenever the urge strikes--which is often
and plentiful. He was most emphatic about how he didn't want to swim in
$*** and didn't want his kids swimming in it either. But he didn't even
bat an eye when, just after we'd exhausted our supply of stale crackers,
his son dove off the stern of the boat right into the flock of geese. I
managed not to say a word, although I nearly strangled on the effort it
took.

This is ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION.

Again...you're entitled to it! But my own personal opinion is that for
you, perception is 99% of reality...if you were in an anchorage where a
boat was using a Lectra/San and you didn't know it, you'd have no
problem happily swimming around them--and most likely have done so...but
if you found out, you wouldn't go back into the water...'cuz for all of
us, it's mind over matter...once the mind has firmly established its
prejudices, it's amost impossible for reason to overcome them.

I will continue to read your posts with greatest consideration.

And I will continue to respect your opinions. In fact, I doubt that I'll
succeed in changing any of yours...but that's ok...all I can do is try.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

So why doesn't Southern California allow Electra-San treated discharge??

Everett
Long Beach, CA

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Paolo Zini wrote:
...CUT...

removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is greater
on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Because it's "politically correct". Has no basis in science however.

--


Keith
__
"History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political
freedom. Clearly it is not a sufficient condition." - Milton Friedman
"Everett" wrote in message
...
So why doesn't Southern California allow Electra-San treated discharge??

Everett
Long Beach, CA

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Paolo Zini wrote:
...CUT...

removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is
greater on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Everett wrote:
So why doesn't Southern California allow Electra-San treated discharge??

Everett

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...

Paolo Zini wrote:

...CUT...
removing it altogether...why store waste aboard if you can discharge it
legally AND with far less negative environmental impact than dumping a
tank?

There is a movement afoot to ban chlorine as a deadly poison. We
should minimise or eleiminate poisonous chlorine. -tk

just curious... Do you like to swim in your s**t?

Every sewage treatment plant in the world discharges into somebody's
waters...so it's just a matter of how well treated you want it to be.

And fwiw, the negative impact from just ONE dumped holding tank is greater
on the surrounding waters than that from 1000 boats, all using
Lectra/Sans, in the same waters for 24 hours.

Peggie

....For an area about twice the size of your boat, for about 20
minutes, after which the effect becomes the same as if there was
about one boat using the area for ten minutes per day. It's a
question of concentrations, not quantity. It's the same as peeing
over the side when you need to, or holding it for ten minutes or so,
then peeing over the side. It's a sin which boaters are incapable of
comitting on any scale comparable to any municipal government. Who
should be getting chased over this? Municipal taxpayers and feedlot
operators and agricultural producers and their customers. (That's
"us" folks!) We can't afford wars overseas, we got a war to win in
our own back yard.

And to add to the panic, just think of the devastation to the
ecology whenever a large fish dies. The rotting corpse, full of
deadly E.Coli, fairly explodes with pathogens and methane, wiping
out entire oceans of tiny aquatic phytoplankton victims, force fed
to death, and endangered further by feeding their most deadly
enemies. What is worse is that the local scavangers reproduce
freely as a result, which hugely increases the danger that their
population will overload the ecosystem of an entire region.

The reason they keep swimming in Shanghai harbour is, they got no
where else to go, murcury or no.

We need to do one of two things:

Improve health care for large fish, so as to improve the scenery for
tourists, our only hope for a viable economy, or,

Wipe out those fish which die too often, so as to clean up the
beaches and get rid of those nasty scavangers. Starve them I say,
just like killing the Bison got rid of the pesky native indigenous
primates that stood in the way of an effective economy here in North
America 400 years ago.

Tripe, anyone?

Nature has been looking after herself for a while, as she will
continue to do long after all of stupid humanity has rotted away and
the reptiles take over again. Oh, unless the globe is all
radioactive, in which case, it wil be the insects that take over.

The real question is how and when, not if.

We are being mislead by greedy fools, again, still.

A side of hubris with that?

Terry K

I support David Suzuki as this year's greatest Canadian, but what's
he gonna do for us next year? What are YOU gonna do? That will be
his real measure.