As usual your reply is informative and kind.

My personal opinion is that is uncorrect to dump anything in coastal
waters,
also soapy water...

That would be a valid concern in many parts of the world where
....CUT...
. So the only
pollutants in soapy water are from whatever the soap was used to
clean...for instance, an oily bilge.

You aven't got my point: disregarding the legal point or even the chemical
pollution, the soap can be safe and not chemically polluttant (maybe...)
But you can guarantee that the oil (only to remain with your example...)
that the soap as removed is also safe and not polluttant?
And even if it is safe, do you tink that a place full of soap bubbles and
oil and watermelon seeds floating around is nice place where to send the
boys to swim?

......

I have read the lectra/sans manual.
I am not a specialist, like you, but, if memory helps, salty water
electrolisys produces clorine... (I am right?)

So far...but--

this means that the s**t is
macerated and disinfected... But it remains s**t, nice dark s**t.

No...that's a common misconception among "no discharge" proponents.
First, it assumes that every flush is fecal matter...when in fact,
unless someone onboard has a serious gastrointestinal problem,

ROTFL...

only one
or at most two flushes person do...the remaining average 4 toilet
visits/day/person are urine only.

I do believe that your urine don't stinks... mine definitively do...
OK, only kidding.

Second, the average person
output--including solids--is only about 8 oz...the average flush
including flush water is about half a gallon. So the treated discharge
is highly diluted to begin with. Third, the hypochlorous acid
(chlorine) created by the Lectra/San not only reduces bacteria count to
less than 10/100 mililiter, it also bleaches as it treats...so what
comes out is only about a half gallon that closely resembles skim milk
that's been cut about 2:1

Another lesson learned: while swimming, stay away from that looks like
milk...

with water....so "thin" and pale in color
that, unless the thru-hull is very close to the waterline, it's totally

Maybe that the perfect arrangement is your lectra/san discarging into a
tank, to be dumped at marina or 3 NM away from coast. This would solve also
the odor problems... or not?

I would like a similar solution, but, it as obvious, it has down aspects:
1) it needs power. Power, in small sailboat, is a constant concern. You
aren't guaranteed to have it.
2) it needs maintenance. I don't bet on accuracy of maintenance, when, safe
or not, all is dumped overboard...

I have checked also the prices of lectra/san... and it is expensive...

I am building a cat and I was planning to install a Lavac head (manual, no
power requirements...) with tank.
But msd+tank appears interesting...
It is expensive and needs space, but in case of failure of msd the tank can
save the day.

Paolo

No, you should have no marine toilet whatsoever in order to protect the
environment. You should just hold it until you get back, or better yet,
don't boat in "our swimming pool" as you put it.

--


Keith
__
A husband is what is left of a man after the nerve is extracted.
"Paolo Zini" wrote in message
...

I am building a cat and I was planning to install a Lavac head (manual, no
power requirements...) with tank.
But msd+tank appears interesting...
It is expensive and needs space, but in case of failure of msd the tank
can
save the day.

Paolo

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 12:47:28 GMT, "Keith"
wrote:

No, you should have no marine toilet whatsoever in order to protect the
environment. You should just hold it until you get back, or better yet,
don't boat in "our swimming pool" as you put it.

I believe Paolo's concerns are valid and his queries sincere. While it
may be counter-productive to be obsessive on these topics, I believe
that it is helpful that we as sailors consider clearly our options in
regards to waste disposal and power management.

Part of the attraction to sailing as a lifestyle is that it is
relatively easy on the environment, as opposed to, say, driving a
Hummer to Mexico. The continuing interest in marine heads, composting,
windvane and wind turbines, solar panels, electric and/or fuel cell
diesel replacements, and so on reflects a concern not only for energy
"independence" to extend cruising, but also a desire to "sail lightly
upon the earth (or sea, I suppose)".

If forums like this can educate or elaborate on the options available,
all to the good. Sarcasm, I find, is less helpful, unless it is
directed at trolls.

R.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:36:05 -0500, rhys wrotf:


Part of the attraction to sailing as a lifestyle is that it is
relatively easy on the environment, as opposed to, say, driving a
Hummer to Mexico. The continuing interest in marine heads, composting,
windvane and wind turbines, solar panels, electric and/or fuel cell
diesel replacements, and so on reflects a concern not only for energy
"independence" to extend cruising, but also a desire to "sail lightly
upon the earth (or sea, I suppose)".

Sailing lightly is good both for the sailor and the planet. As I
progress with my own boat building project, much of my effort is in
exploring and exploiting 'free energy' sources for all the basic needs
and finding ways to do so without busting the budget. Many resources
exist out there and its not a new concept. I like the idea that my
voyaging can be less stressful on the planet than driving my car to
the mall.

Weebles Wobble
(but they don't fall down)

Hi, Y'all,

Truncating this to a question or two:

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
...
Any manual marine toilet that's working anywhere near factory specs can
move bowl contents at least 6' in the dry mode...so if you learn how to
flush your toilet correctly, there shouldn't be any water or waste in
the line between the toilet and top of the loop to run back down into
the bowl.

This has me very curious. You're saying that enough
speed/pressure/whatever-moves-it is developed, in an anti-siphon environment
(the vented loop), that I can clear a 1.5" line for what is (in the new
installation) about 3.5-4 feet (to the top of the loop) by dry flushing?

I buy that I might be able to flush solids, with water, that far, if I'm
aggressive enough with my volume (and the Raritans we have probably put in a
cup per stroke or so), but I don't see how that pipe can empty, dry pump or
not. I'd have to think the surface tension of the water would not be
sufficient to prevent the water running past the bubble at the edges, as you
recharge between strokes. I'd be thrilled to think I could really empty it,
as that - with a straight discharge - would go a long way to keep odor down
(should be only sea water to make odor, that way). Help me out with my
physics, here?


On the subject of joints, I'm of distinctly curious mind. While my
current
home isn't this way, my prior home had hundreds of feet of PVC pipe run,
with all the necessary ells, Ts and other fittings, all successfully
carrying high pressure hot and cold water.... Am I missing something?

What you're missing is: houses stay put...they don't get tossed around
by wind and wave. Boats do.

Well, yes, of course. But if I secure a large pipe, in a short run, under
next to no pressure, it's not going to move. In the house example, you
could see the distortion of the hot water pipe from expansion vs resting
state as hot water entered, and see it jump as the water was shut off and
turned on - but it all stayed together. In the boat, we'll use hose as
movement absorbers.

Not trying to be argumentative - just understand why I shouldn't be doing as
SeaLand recommends...

Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"

By the way, I promoted your book to several people complaining of stinky
heads, and saw many of them being bought from the vendor table at the SSCA
Gam in Melbourne the first weekend in November...

L8R

Skip (and Lydia, by proxy)

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig
http://tinyurl.com/384p2

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Skip Gundlach wrote:
This has me very curious. You're saying that enough
speed/pressure/whatever-moves-it is developed, in an anti-siphon environment
(the vented loop), that I can clear a 1.5" line for what is (in the new
installation) about 3.5-4 feet (to the top of the loop) by dry flushing?

Yes, Skip...that's what I'm saying. A siphon break (vented loop) has no
impact on water being pushed through it...it only allows air into the
line to break the flow of water being pulled through it.


I buy that I might be able to flush solids, with water, that far, if I'm
aggressive enough with my volume (and the Raritans we have probably put in a
cup per stroke or so), but I don't see how that pipe can empty, dry pump or
not.

You can prove it to yourself by simply seeing what happens when you
flush the toilet in the dry mode.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

You aven't got my point: disregarding the legal point or even the chemical
pollution, the soap can be safe and not chemically polluttant (maybe...)
But you can guarantee that the oil (only to remain with your example...)
that the soap as removed is also safe and not polluttant?

No...soap or detergent is safe, and so is anything that goes down a sink
or shower drain. But there is no soap, detergent or other cleaning
product that can transform a pollutant--say, oil in a bilge--into an
environmentally friendly product. Which is why it's such a mystery to me
that boat owners are so concerned about organic matter in gray water or
treated toilet waste, but give no thought at all to what their bilge
pumps are discharging.

And even if it is safe, do you tink that a place full of soap bubbles and
oil and watermelon seeds floating around is nice place where to send the
boys to swim?

Don't confuse galley WATER with galley waste (garbage)--which is what
watermelon seeds are. As for any oils (cooking or body), they're
emulsified by detergents and soaps...and most of those are very low suds
these days. You're far more likely to see suds and bubbles around a boat
being washed than from any sink drains.

If you're really sincere about protecting the ocean environment,
concentrate your efforts on keeping oil and grease out of the bilges
instead of worrying about what goes down a drain.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327

Apparently my arguments have stirred up the group intollerance.
If you agree I would restart the MSD discussion in a different thread and
reformulate it.
I am really interested...

You aven't got my point: disregarding the legal point or even the
chemical
pollution, the soap can be safe and not chemically polluttant (maybe...)
But you can guarantee that the oil (only to remain with your example...)
that the soap as removed is also safe and not polluttant?

No...soap or detergent is safe, and so is anything that goes down a sink
or shower drain. But there is no soap, detergent or other cleaning
product that can transform a pollutant--say, oil in a bilge--into an
environmentally friendly product. Which is why it's such a mystery to me
that boat owners are so concerned about organic matter in gray water or
treated toilet waste, but give no thought at all to what their bilge
pumps are discharging.

I am interested only in small sailboat, i am building one 26' catamaran.
The only oil that you can extract from my bilge will be olive oil... :-)

And even if it is safe, do you tink that a place full of soap bubbles
and
oil and watermelon seeds floating around is nice place where to send the
boys to swim?

Don't confuse galley WATER with galley waste (garbage)--which is what
watermelon seeds are. As for any oils (cooking or body), they're
emulsified by detergents and soaps...and most of those are very low suds
these days. You're far more likely to see suds and bubbles around a boat
being washed than from any sink drains.

I have trouble with the language, I don't explain clearly my mind.
The watermellon seed is only one example of what can transform a clean
peacefull place into something unpleasant, disgusting...
I try with another example: if the bottom is mud, a small movement transform
the water from cristal clear to something dark and unpleasant... it is
safe, but I don't like it.
In the same way the boat discarge: head, galley, ad bilge water can be safe,
but doubtless aren't "cristal clear"...


If you're really sincere about protecting the ocean environment,
concentrate your efforts on keeping oil and grease out of the bilges
instead of worrying about what goes down a drain.

I agree: my engine is wind.
But sometimes the actions have a "flag" value: over my roof I have
photovoltaic panels, I do know that the energy balance (amount of energy
used to produce the cell/ amount of energy generated in the life) of
photovoltaic cells is largely debatable and my photovoltaic panels don't
change my country energy balance... But I have put my money there because I
want a greater attention to this type of problems.

Paolo

Oops, sorry. It's illegal to discharge even olive oil...
http://www.epa.gov/oilspill/vegoil.htm

--


Keith
__
Don't let your mind wander -- it's too little to be let out alone.

"Paolo Zini" wrote in message
...


I am interested only in small sailboat, i am building one 26' catamaran.
The only oil that you can extract from my bilge will be olive oil... :-)

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:08:16 GMT, "Keith"
wrote:

Oops, sorry. It's illegal to discharge even olive oil...
http://www.epa.gov/oilspill/vegoil.htm

Hmm...so if I put "bio-diesel" in my boat engine obtained by back-yard
distillation of Chinese deep-fryer cast-offs, will I be breaking the
law if a drop of wok leavings scented lightly with pork flies out the
stern?

There *is* a sensible middle ground here, but it's notoriously hard to
find middle ground on water, I find.

R.