jegros wrote:

I recently purchased a used 1998 27 foot ProLine walk around with cuddy
cabin and an electric toilet. We need to empty the holding tank. I have no
documentation for the boat. Are there valves that need to be opened? If so
where are they? Do I turn on the macerator pump? Do I need to run the
electric toilet. Could someone let me know the procedure?



I empty mine by opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve, closing
the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky shower
cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the tank
by introducing 12 volt tire pump air into a vent line using an
automotive cooling system flush adapter and a "blow out nipple"
shraeder valve stem that threads into the flush fitting hose
connector, available for RV use or other line purging purposes.
When it farts, its done. It's a good way to test the joker valve.
If it leaks back, it gets replaced, pronto. If not, and after 3
years it still doesn't, we take bets on next time. The jackpot
accumulates, and guests contribute apace. I am considering a snug
fitting, pressure gasketed, plexiglass safety cover for the toilet
bowl, and a new rule that the flushor will collect 1/2 of the pot.
There are only two positions upon which to bet, and the bettors may
form teams, comines, or pools. THet may watch in witness, or absent
fortitude, may await hor's doerves in the cockpit.

As you may perceive the idea revolutionary or hazardous, consider
that submarines use air to dump ballast tanks every day, at depths
and pressures that are classified. My pressure system,
affectionately known as the poop cannon, needs lift the "ballast"
only about 15 inches, max. The poop chute / sea discharge is at the
waterline.

I have not yet had the temerity to try out the two elbo fittings for
the deck pump out fitting, the aimable nozzel of the cannon that
awaits those on PWCs who dare buzz me too closely, portside. The
lift height and pressures needed to permit a forceful discharge at
deck level are as yet unexplored, yet they beacon like skunky
sirens. Likewise, we have as yet not installed the ball valve in the
deck pumpout line (which has never needed using at all) that could
permit a controlled discharge of possibly the foulest weapon not as
yet banned in the articles of warfare and therefore, technically,
still a legal weapon.

The deck pump out poop canon fittings could also be used to empty
the holding tank in the driveway, into a garbage bucket for disposal
down the toilet in the basement, or at the local mall RV plaza dump
out. We preserve our alternatives.

Tire inflators cost $9.99 when on sale, but they are not marine
rated. I love multi use stuff.

You think Rodney Dangerfield "Didn't get no respect?"

Terry K

Terry Spragg wrote:


I empty mine by...opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve,
closing the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky
shower cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the
tank...


Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Hello Peggie,

Saw your name and thought I would ask you a question.

I have been using Raratan KO now for a couple of years on my boat and
have been satisfied with it. However, the heads are Vac-U-Flush units
and I typically have a pumpout every week or so therefore it is hard to
judge how effective the KO treatment is.

Recently I was watching "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel and
the show was describing a huge waste water treatment plant. Several
large containers - basically huge holding tanks - called "Digestors" are
used to process the waste water. The Digestors are charged with live
bacteria that eats up the solids - similar to how KO is advertised to work.

The digestors were described as being heated to 120 degrees to activate
the bacteria. Without the heat it would take years for the bacteria to
reduce the solids according to the show narrator.

Is Raratan KO effective without heating the tank? I noticed on the
bottle that it warns against storing below 40 degrees, so I assume the
bacteria is temperature sensitive.

TIA.

Eisboch

Hi Eisboch...

I have been using Raratan KO now for a couple of years on my boat and
have been satisfied with it. However, the heads are Vac-U-Flush
units and I typically have a pumpout every week or so therefore it is
hard to judge how effective the KO treatment is.

The type of toilet has nothing to do with what happens in a holding
tank...the only thing ANY toilet can do is move waste from the bowl to
the tank. However, whether pumping out every week makes any difference
depends on the size of the tank.


Recently I was watching "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel and
the show was describing a huge waste water treatment plant. Several
large containers - basically huge holding tanks - called "Digestors"
are used to process the waste water. The Digestors are charged with
live bacteria that eats up the solids - similar to how KO is
advertised to work.

The digestors were described as being heated to 120 degrees to
activate the bacteria. Without the heat it would take years for the
bacteria to reduce the solids according to the show narrator.

I saw the same show. There are all kinds of bacteria, specifically
cultured to accomplish different things.Most can't stand temperatures
above 120 F--in fact, 120 F is the temperature at which milk is
pasteurized. But there are "hardier" strains specifically cultured to
withstand slightly higher temperatures. You also have to remember that
these TV shows are aimed at a mass market that doesn't have (or need) an
in-depth bio-chemistry education...so it's also entirely possible that
the tanks are only heated to 119.7--barely below the temp that's lethal
to bacteria...which producers of a show like Modern Marvels would round
off to 120. There's enough material in "not all bacteria are the same
and how different strains function" for at least two more similar shows!

Onboard sewage consists only of organic matter (body waste) and flush
water...anything that can do down a drain--including storm drains--ends
up in a sewage treatment plant...not only organic matter, but petroleum,
chemicals, rubber, plastics...you name it--if it can be flushed down a
toilet or a drain, it is...and it all has be broken down and separated
as part of sewage treatment. Sewage treatment doesn't completely
emulsify everything either...the goal is turn as much as possible into
liquid that's discharged...the remaining sludge is carried away to be
spread on lands owned by sewage treatment plants.

Why do they heat it? Because bacterial activity increases or decreases
with temperature...the warmer it is, the more active they are and the
faster they multiply, till the temp gets high enough to kill 'em (which
is why holding tank odor is more a problem in hot weather than in cold
weather). Conversely, the colder they are, the more sluggish they
become...going dormant below 40 F. The increase/decrease in bacterial
activity/mulitiplication is not a straight line, though...if you saw it
charted on graph, it would be fairly flat from 40 F through somewhere in
the mid-70's...then start to rise sharply with every degree. So the
objective in a sewage treatment plant is to heat the tanks to JUST BELOW
the temp that would start to kill the bacteria to make the li'l buggers
the most active they can be, to get as much done as quickly as possible.

Is Raratan KO effective without heating the tank?

Yes. The bacteria in KO multiplies at the same rate as the bacteria in
waste...so yes, it's affected by temperature, same as any other
bacteria. It's cultured to work at ambient temperature, which inside the
tank rises and falls with the temp of the flush water...solar heat or
onboard heat warming the boat, or heat from engines if the tank is in
the engine room etc.

I noticed on the
bottle that it warns against storing below 40 degrees...

It also warns against storing where the temperature can rise above
110...for instance, in your car or a dock locker in the sun in which
solar heat can produce temperatures close to 200 F...even higher.

so I assume
the bacteria is temperature sensitive.

All bacteria is...but when it comes to preventing odor, oxygen is the
"key ingredient" at any temperature...which is why those big tanks in
sewage treatment plants are also aerated.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Amazing little critters, those friendly bacteria!

Seriously, thanks for the info. I've been thinking about it since I saw
the show (why, I have no idea) and you certainly cleared up my questions.

Take care,

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:

Amazing little critters, those friendly bacteria!

Seriously, thanks for the info. I've been thinking about it since I saw
the show (why, I have no idea) and you certainly cleared up my questions.

You watched it for the same reason I was so fascinated with the one they
did on airport runway construction and how much different and more
complex it is than highway construction...and remember it every time I
fly anywhere. Also love the one they did on the west coast coastal
highway and bridge construction. Why? D'd if I know...it's just interesting.


--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

Peggie Hall wrote:

Hi Eisboch...

I have been using Raratan KO now for a couple of years on my boat and
have been satisfied with it. However, the heads are Vac-U-Flush
units and I typically have a pumpout every week or so therefore it is
hard to judge how effective the KO treatment is.

The type of toilet has nothing to do with what happens in a holding
tank...the only thing ANY toilet can do is move waste from the bowl to
the tank. However, whether pumping out every week makes any difference
depends on the size of the tank.


Recently I was watching "Modern Marvels" on the History Channel and
the show was describing a huge waste water treatment plant. Several
large containers - basically huge holding tanks - called "Digestors"
are used to process the waste water. The Digestors are charged with
live bacteria that eats up the solids - similar to how KO is
advertised to work.

The digestors were described as being heated to 120 degrees to
activate the bacteria. Without the heat it would take years for the
bacteria to reduce the solids according to the show narrator.

I saw the same show. There are all kinds of bacteria, specifically
cultured to accomplish different things.Most can't stand temperatures
above 120 F--in fact, 120 F is the temperature at which milk is
pasteurized. But there are "hardier" strains specifically cultured to
withstand slightly higher temperatures. You also have to remember that
these TV shows are aimed at a mass market that doesn't have (or need) an
in-depth bio-chemistry education...so it's also entirely possible that
the tanks are only heated to 119.7--barely below the temp that's lethal
to bacteria...which producers of a show like Modern Marvels would round
off to 120. There's enough material in "not all bacteria are the same
and how different strains function" for at least two more similar shows!

Onboard sewage consists only of organic matter (body waste) and flush
water...anything that can do down a drain--including storm drains--ends
up in a sewage treatment plant...not only organic matter, but petroleum,
chemicals, rubber, plastics...you name it--if it can be flushed down a
toilet or a drain, it is...and it all has be broken down and separated
as part of sewage treatment. Sewage treatment doesn't completely
emulsify everything either...the goal is turn as much as possible into
liquid that's discharged...the remaining sludge is carried away to be
spread on lands owned by sewage treatment plants.

Why do they heat it? Because bacterial activity increases or decreases
with temperature...the warmer it is, the more active they are and the
faster they multiply, till the temp gets high enough to kill 'em (which
is why holding tank odor is more a problem in hot weather than in cold
weather). Conversely, the colder they are, the more sluggish they
become...going dormant below 40 F. The increase/decrease in bacterial
activity/mulitiplication is not a straight line, though...if you saw it
charted on graph, it would be fairly flat from 40 F through somewhere in
the mid-70's...then start to rise sharply with every degree. So the
objective in a sewage treatment plant is to heat the tanks to JUST BELOW
the temp that would start to kill the bacteria to make the li'l buggers
the most active they can be, to get as much done as quickly as possible.

Is Raratan KO effective without heating the tank?

Yes. The bacteria in KO multiplies at the same rate as the bacteria in
waste...so yes, it's affected by temperature, same as any other
bacteria. It's cultured to work at ambient temperature, which inside the
tank rises and falls with the temp of the flush water...solar heat or
onboard heat warming the boat, or heat from engines if the tank is in
the engine room etc.

I noticed on the
bottle that it warns against storing below 40 degrees...

It also warns against storing where the temperature can rise above
110...for instance, in your car or a dock locker in the sun in which
solar heat can produce temperatures close to 200 F...even higher.

so I assume
the bacteria is temperature sensitive.

All bacteria is...but when it comes to preventing odor, oxygen is the
"key ingredient" at any temperature...which is why those big tanks in
sewage treatment plants are also aerated.

Further, the bacterial action, similar to composting, generates
considerable heat. If the tank is insulated efficiently, it might
require cooling of some sort. Making wine is a similar type of
thing, and the yeast employed works much better at close to 75
degrees, but dies above 80.

Composting can generate a lot of heat, that's why compost heaps
continue to work over the winter, even though the outside
temperature may be very cold.

Terry K

Peggie Hall wrote:
Terry Spragg wrote:
I empty mine by...opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve,
closing the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky
shower cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the
tank...

Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

Being offshore has nothing to do with this technical matter.

Besides, I do not dump "ballast" casually. When neccessary, I wait
for night, and an outgoing tide. The system is capable of the
behavoir described, and preserves options, including about a grand
in the bank, considering the alternatives.


However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.


Thank you. I sent you the plans for this system over 3 years ago, I
think. You didn't like it then, either. Scaredy cat. I take no
offense, it's an understandable fear.

I built the tank in poly glass and epoxy for about 50 bucks in
materials, plus leftover scraps, etc. It has been pressure tested to
a head of 4 feet, with no signs of cracking, or even swelling. It
has been frozen to -30 odd degrees, with some water remaining
inside, undamaged due to it's shape, in a purposeful test. It's 1/4"
thick, except on the top, for a reason. I do not fear a poop bomb in
the slightest, especially since, after all, we each harbour hundreds
of square feet of internal surface in our gut that are very happy
indeed with the presence of semi processed food, the only portion of
which being released from our bodies is essentially inert and
useless to us except for benign bacteria in healthy people, with
most of the active materials being resorbed by the process of
ailimentation, upon which our lives depend. The castoff nourishes
the greater biosphere, which would perish without it. It is shameful
to poison it.

We must learn to love our digestive symbiots, as they love and need
us. Our lack of success so far is no reason to give up.

Our poop is pure gold to the external world, ambrosia to the soil,
emotive arguements notwithstanding. Well, mine is, I don't know
about yours.

This is not an effective method for damaging any reasonable tank or
pipes. If it were effective in any wise, that tank would have been
due to crumble into dust, anyway, and I would rather watch it
explode while purging it than have it disintegrate unnoticed at sea
or moored unattended. It gets pumped up to about 4 pounds of
pressure on relatively infrequent occasions, so far with no mishaps.
You should be wishing me good luck!

I'm the guy who actually keeps his pooper through hull closed, most
of the time.

As a roadie tech for rock 'n roll bands including my own, I, and all
of similar ilk, agree that if it's easy to break, I don't want it
anyway. Bust it if you can. Be prepared.

Those with an interest in commercially "legal" current defecatory
receptacles have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and
press their disagreeable cases to the maximum extent so as to
protect their market share. Peggy, I believe you are a little
conventional in this regard, having at least a personal bias, apropo
simple habit and possibly genuine misplaced concern and fear for my
health.

I *am* pulling whatever legs are presented, in that I do not bother
with the personal protective gear to which I previously alluded. It
is unneccessary. The rest is truth.

The system works, is independant of the scandals revolving around
marina suction style pumpouts, regulations and availability, and is
convenient and cheap. Millions of RV users dump out at mall plazas,
every year. Why not my boat? What I really need is a pipe thread cut
into the pooper through hull and a chunk of old firehose, for max
convenience and lowest pressure dump. I see no reason why I
shouldn't use my boat and it's facilities on it's trailer as an RV.

How do most boaters handle their head's effluent problem? Thousand
dollar "legal" chewy pumps in stain-less steal, rotting in their
personal plumbing miasmas, with few pumpouts available, many of
those broken, or of restricted availability, or expensive? Most
cannot dump out cheaply, easily or freely at a mall RV plaza, but
with this, they could. Our local mall has dozens of RVs parked in
the parking lot every morning, waiting for the mall doors to open.

The stupid and inhumane failure of downtown authorities to provide
adequate public facilities for fear of attracting "undesirables" has
promoted suburban retail malls to premiereship in the mass
travelling shopping public market, even amongt those who travel on
foot.

Where do the homeless "go"? Need we, should we, restrict this
freedom to wander at will, forcing them into "homes" and lifestyles
they do not want?

Tourism is one of the leading leisure industries ashore, but is not
so easy afloat. Most boats are small, not yachts, and all require
that some form of facilities be available. I offer a system that
could serve conveniently and cheaply those who would enjoy such an
advance. Nobody promotes it because it does not offer them a way to
bilk the public.

I prefer to deal reasonably and responsibly with my boat's effluent
in my own way.

Damn the torpedoes! Fame as an unsuccessful poop bomb builder is
better than no fame at all.

Terry K

Wow! Sure feels good to vent. -tk

Terry Spragg wrote:

Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

Being offshore has nothing to do with this technical matter.

No...but it is a legal matter. Environmental concerns MAY be
debatable...but all it takes is one person who objects to your actions
to see you doing it to bring you to the attention of law
enforcement...and that can cost you BIG bucks.


Besides, I do not dump "ballast" casually. When neccessary, I wait for
night, and an outgoing tide. The system is capable of the behavoir
described, and preserves options, including about a grand in the bank,
considering the alternatives.


However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.


Thank you. I sent you the plans for this system over 3 years ago, I
think. You didn't like it then, either. Scaredy cat. I take no offense,
it's an understandable fear.

I built the tank in poly glass and epoxy for about 50 bucks in
materials, plus leftover scraps, etc. It has been pressure tested to a
head of 4 feet, with no signs of cracking, or even swelling.

It's not necessarily your tank I worry about...it's what's likely to
happen to the typical tank on most boats if the same idea were applied
to it.

Those with an interest in commercially "legal" current defecatory
receptacles have an interest in maintaining the status quo, and press
their disagreeable cases to the maximum extent so as to protect their
market share. Peggy, I believe you are a little conventional in this
regard, having at least a personal bias, apropo simple habit and
possibly genuine misplaced concern and fear for my health.

I have no personal biases, nor concern for your health either...and have
always been open to new ideas. My only concern is whether they'll work
for at least 99% of the boating population. Too many boat owners don't
even know how to flush a marine toilet correctly, and think replacing
the joker valve is the solution to every toilet problem including a
blocked tank vent...they don't even know what "head pressure"
means--they think it has something to do with the toilet.

Besides, why anyone want to go through all that instead of just opening
a thru-hull and pumping a manual pump about 4x is a mystery to
me...unless you just want to be different.

Btw...manual and electric overboard discharge pumps are either bronze or
plastic...I've never seen a metal one. And as for pumping out at an RV
dump station...plenty of trailer boat owners do it. It's a relatively
simple matter to replace an overboard thru-hull with one that's threaded
to accept a macerator pump or hose fitting...the rest is easy.

Wow! Sure feels good to vent. -tk

Even though little of it had to do with the subject.



--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://69.20.93.241/store/customer/p...40&cat=&page=1

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 04:58:33 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Terry Spragg wrote:


I empty mine by...opening the "Port / Sea" through hull valve,
closing the vent lines ball valves and then, after donning my lucky
shower cap, safety goggles, filter mask and raincoat, pressurise the
tank...


Suuuure you do, Terry...and you're always offshore at least 3 miles to
do it, too.

However, on the off-chance that you AREN'T pulling our leg, it may not
be the dumbest idea I've heard this year, but it's a contender--an
excellent way to crack a tank...or worse.


I have an old boat which came with a y-valve so the holding tank could
be bypassed. I changed that so the head always flushes into the tank.

I then put a T in the pumpout line with a bilge pump on the new branch
leading to the former dumping seacock. When over 3 miles offshore,
which is frequent for us, I just open the seacock and pump.

Shoreside pumpout works normally, holding the check valves closed in
the bilgepump.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record?
For better or worse?