What I understand from any of your postings is that you are incredibly
insecure, misinformed, and HAVE to have the last word.
My point was, Rosalie had performed her own test on drag with prop folded
and unfolded and stated her results. You're pointing out that her prop was
turning and creating drag really didn't support your fantasy position in
this discussion. My fixed prop turns too, when in forward, reverse, or in
idle and sailing. In fact, the only time it doesn't turn is when the boat is
dockside. Amazing, huh?
I've avoided responding to your posts for years, but couldn't when you
lamely tried to make Rosalie look bad when all she was doing was
participating in a discussion (which she understands better than you do).
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
uhhhhhhhh, mmc? which word didn't you understand?

From: "MMC"
Date: 8/28/2004 3:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Uh huh, and the point would be?
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Rosalie, your prop was also turning while you were running the engine.
that
alone is one hell of a drag.

"Paul L" wrote:

You will definitely will see a decent speed improvement under sail
with
a
folding prop. Depending on the prop you buy, you should see better
power/control in reverse too. They are very reliable now, so I don't
think
that is a down side. The biggest downside is their cost. I have a Max
prop
and think it great.

Paul
www.jcruiser.org
"MLapla4120" wrote in message
...
I'm going to re-power soon and am also going to get new shaft and
prop.
It seems that in my boat class (Westsail 32), some people are
going
to folding props to help speed under sail.
I'm for increased speed, but also want reliability. My current
bronze
propeller is pitted and old. Every time I turn around and look at
it,
it
is full of sea growth. That makes me think I'm getting poor
performance.
So, I'm for an improvement, but I am unsure of what kind.
Any opinions from boaters that have encountered this situation
would
be
appreciated.


We have a feathering prop (vs a folding prop) and we do get an
increase of about 1/2 knot under sail, and it also backs better under
power. I haven't tried to quantify the backing under power - it is
just what we feel.

Disadvantages are - you lose a bit of power forward because the blades
are flat and the prop takes a bit more maintenance than a fixed prop.

[We were sailing but had the engine on in neutral so the prop was not
feathered - we were running the refrigeration- and when we had
finished that, we turned off the engine and feathered the prop, and
our speed increased 1/2 knot - same wind and current. Now I know this
is not a completely scientific test, but it is significant to us.
There are also people in our group who did tests with a fixed prop
over a measured course, and then did the same tests with a folding
prop over the same course and found a similar result.]




grandma Rosalie

I don't know what a VP/CP prop is.

Variable pitch/controlable pitch.
I use the terms interchangeably, but as you'll see, others use them slightly
differently.


When our engine is running the shaft is spinning because we have a
Borg-Warner transmission. Our shaft spins whenever the engine is on
regardless whether it is neutral or not. The prop feathers when the
engine is turned off and the shaft stops spinning. The stopping of
the shaft spinning feathers the prop if I understand it correctly.
You really wouldn't want the prop feathered if the engine was on - if
it feathered when you went through neutral when docking or something
it would be very awkward.

Interesting, thanks for the info.
I would wonder if once you were underway and using your prop, even going from
ahead to astern (unless you had a shaft brake) that the shaft would generally
continue to rotate on it's own, keeping the prop "unfeathered", though I can
see where the manufacturer might want to guarantee it would stay that way (just
clarifying in my own mind G).

Shen

(Shen44) wrote:

I don't know what a VP/CP prop is.

Variable pitch/controlable pitch.
I use the terms interchangeably, but as you'll see, others use them slightly
differently.


When our engine is running the shaft is spinning because we have a
Borg-Warner transmission. Our shaft spins whenever the engine is on
regardless whether it is neutral or not. The prop feathers when the
engine is turned off and the shaft stops spinning. The stopping of
the shaft spinning feathers the prop if I understand it correctly.
You really wouldn't want the prop feathered if the engine was on - if
it feathered when you went through neutral when docking or something
it would be very awkward.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

We have a Max-Prop BTW.

I would wonder if once you were underway and using your prop, even going from
ahead to astern (unless you had a shaft brake) that the shaft would generally
continue to rotate on it's own, keeping the prop "unfeathered", though I can
see where the manufacturer might want to guarantee it would stay that way (just
clarifying in my own mind G).

I'm not sure that I understand this question, or if it is a question,
but in our particular configuration (which is NOT the norm) with a
Borg-Warner transmission, the shaft cannot be stopped from turning by
putting the gear shift lever into reverse or neutral (whether the
engine is running or not) which I guess is what is done on most kinds
of engine/transmission linkages. We don't have a shaft brake.

[I do know one man who DOES stop the shaft rotation when under sail
with vice grips but that involves pulling up the cockpit hatch covers
and getting down into the engine room both to start and stop the shaft
rotation.]

In the beginning, we tried to ease the engine into neutral and then
shut it down, but the prop would not feather doing it that way. Some
people go overboard the other way and rev the engine way up before
they cut the power, but that isn't necessary. All that is necessary
is that you not throttle way back before you cut the engine.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 12:48:25 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

20 miles a day is a 15% improvement on a base 5.6 knot cruising speed
and you are correct that folding props make the most difference in light
air.

Reducing drag has the advantage over adding sail area in that it does
not add to heeling moment.

BTW, Gori, Martec, Brunton/Varifold and others make 3 blade folders.
Volvo even makes a 4 bladed folder.

Now, you can continue to rant and make an ass of yourself as usual but
that is all I have to say about it.

For what it's worth:

Buddy of mine with a steel Wallstrom-designed (partner to Brewer) 1979
ketch popped for a three-bladed AutoProp, a feathering design. He had
to haul out for many reasons: 1) to confirm the exact geometry of his
hull around the shaft; 2) to cut back his rudder at that point for the
install; and 3) to get the prop itself on. 1) was because it's
essentially a custom casting, and NOT cheap (about $3,500 Cdn.).

After three seasons now, he's happy as a clam with his decision and
outlay. He says the following:

Advantages:

Bigger prop, better bite and power curve. He's got a 35 HP Volvo
(probably 15-25 HP too small for a 28,000 lb. boat), but according to
him, the power he transmits to the prop is greatly increased. His top
speed without redlining has gone from 6.5 to 8.2 knots, or
approximately hull speed.

He says he gains 1/2 knot due to the self-feathering action, a
significant gain in typical light Lake Ontario air for this
essentially blue-water cruiser.

He backs down (after a quick rev to feather out the blades) far more
effectively now. He stops far more rapidly.

His docking is far more controlled. He can move his heavy, trad.
keeled boat like a minivan now. It's quite interesting to see.

Disadvantages:

The cones in his transmission have been wearing far more quickly and
have required replacement. He can handle this himself as a repair, so
it's more an annoyance than a tragedy, and spares from Volvo are
pricey.

He figures that shifting the gears with a bigger, heavier prop is
causing wear and tear beyond the engine spec. You can hear the "clunk"
of his shifting outside the boat, actually. He is consulting with a
marine engineer to determine a better course of action, but he is
leaning towards a shock-absorbing coupler and a thrust bearing
designed to isolate the engine transmission more effectively from the
sheer inertia of this otherwise fine prop.

Overall, he is so happy with the performance, however, both under sail
and power, that he would consider getting a new diesel to make full
use of the prop, rather than sticking with the small but still viable
diesel that perhaps doesn't have the beef at the back end to cope with
God's Own Feathering Prop G.

Hope this little tale helps.

R.

rhys, hate to tell you this, but an Auto-Prop doesn't feather.

Still, the clown spent $3,500 Cdn, so you gotta expect him to tell you
*something*.

20 miles a day is a 15% improvement on a base 5.6 knot cruising speed
and you are correct that folding props make the most difference in light
air.

Reducing drag has the advantage over adding sail area in that it does
not add to heeling moment.

BTW, Gori, Martec, Brunton/Varifold and others make 3 blade folders.
Volvo even makes a 4 bladed folder.

Now, you can continue to rant and make an ass of yourself as usual but
that is all I have to say about it.

For what it's worth:

Buddy of mine with a steel Wallstrom-designed (partner to Brewer) 1979
ketch popped for a three-bladed AutoProp, a feathering design. He had
to haul out for many reasons: 1) to confirm the exact geometry of his
hull around the shaft; 2) to cut back his rudder at that point for the
install; and 3) to get the prop itself on. 1) was because it's
essentially a custom casting, and NOT cheap (about $3,500 Cdn.).

After three seasons now, he's happy as a clam with his decision and
outlay. He says the following:

Advantages:

Bigger prop, better bite and power curve. He's got a 35 HP Volvo
(probably 15-25 HP too small for a 28,000 lb. boat), but according to
him, the power he transmits to the prop is greatly increased. His top
speed without redlining has gone from 6.5 to 8.2 knots, or
approximately hull speed.

He says he gains 1/2 knot due to the self-feathering action, a
significant gain in typical light Lake Ontario air for this
essentially blue-water cruiser.

He backs down (after a quick rev to feather out the blades) far more
effectively now. He stops far more rapidly.

His docking is far more controlled. He can move his heavy, trad.
keeled boat like a minivan now. It's quite interesting to see.

Disadvantages:

The cones in his transmission have been wearing far more quickly and
have required replacement. He can handle this himself as a repair, so
it's more an annoyance than a tragedy, and spares from Volvo are
pricey.

He figures that shifting the gears with a bigger, heavier prop is
causing wear and tear beyond the engine spec. You can hear the "clunk"
of his shifting outside the boat, actually. He is consulting with a
marine engineer to determine a better course of action, but he is
leaning towards a shock-absorbing coupler and a thrust bearing
designed to isolate the engine transmission more effectively from the
sheer inertia of this otherwise fine prop.

Overall, he is so happy with the performance, however, both under sail
and power, that he would consider getting a new diesel to make full
use of the prop, rather than sticking with the small but still viable
diesel that perhaps doesn't have the beef at the back end to cope with
God's Own Feathering Prop G.

Hope this little tale helps.

R.

mmc, go away. you are a lying sack of squat trying to get people hurt. go
away.

From: "MMC"
Date: 8/29/2004 12:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

What I understand from any of your postings is that you are incredibly
insecure, misinformed, and HAVE to have the last word.
My point was, Rosalie had performed her own test on drag with prop folded
and unfolded and stated her results. You're pointing out that her prop was
turning and creating drag really didn't support your fantasy position in
this discussion. My fixed prop turns too, when in forward, reverse, or in
idle and sailing. In fact, the only time it doesn't turn is when the boat is
dockside. Amazing, huh?
I've avoided responding to your posts for years, but couldn't when you
lamely tried to make Rosalie look bad when all she was doing was
participating in a discussion (which she understands better than you do).
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
uhhhhhhhh, mmc? which word didn't you understand?

From: "MMC"
Date: 8/28/2004 3:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

Uh huh, and the point would be?
"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Rosalie, your prop was also turning while you were running the engine.
that
alone is one hell of a drag.

"Paul L" wrote:

You will definitely will see a decent speed improvement under sail
with
a
folding prop. Depending on the prop you buy, you should see better
power/control in reverse too. They are very reliable now, so I don't
think
that is a down side. The biggest downside is their cost. I have a Max
prop
and think it great.

Paul
www.jcruiser.org
"MLapla4120" wrote in message
...
I'm going to re-power soon and am also going to get new shaft and
prop.
It seems that in my boat class (Westsail 32), some people are
going
to folding props to help speed under sail.
I'm for increased speed, but also want reliability. My current
bronze
propeller is pitted and old. Every time I turn around and look at
it,
it
is full of sea growth. That makes me think I'm getting poor
performance.
So, I'm for an improvement, but I am unsure of what kind.
Any opinions from boaters that have encountered this situation
would
be
appreciated.


We have a feathering prop (vs a folding prop) and we do get an
increase of about 1/2 knot under sail, and it also backs better under
power. I haven't tried to quantify the backing under power - it is
just what we feel.

Disadvantages are - you lose a bit of power forward because the blades
are flat and the prop takes a bit more maintenance than a fixed prop.

[We were sailing but had the engine on in neutral so the prop was not
feathered - we were running the refrigeration- and when we had
finished that, we turned off the engine and feathered the prop, and
our speed increased 1/2 knot - same wind and current. Now I know this
is not a completely scientific test, but it is significant to us.
There are also people in our group who did tests with a fixed prop
over a measured course, and then did the same tests with a folding
prop over the same course and found a similar result.]




grandma Rosalie

now, THAT is an informed response.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
mmc, go away. you are a lying sack of squat trying to get people hurt.
go
away.

On 30 Aug 2004 03:34:57 GMT,
JAXAshby wrote:
rhys, hate to tell you this, but an Auto-Prop doesn't feather.



The blades rotate until they are inline with the shaft axis, how is this
not feathering?

Still, the clown spent $3,500 Cdn, so you gotta expect him to tell you
*something*.



What would have done the job as well, for less money?



--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
'Windows' really does make a fine swear word, representing all that's
taboo and awful - just like '****', '****', etc."
-- Mark Hughes, sdm

paul, AC is a newbie who has been deliberately trying to harm people with his
nonsense posts. AC is the kind of person you tell to go pull a fake gun on a
cop late at night. AC, has no value in any fashion.

now, THAT is an informed response.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
mmc, go away. you are a lying sack of squat trying to get people hurt.
go
away.

The blades rotate until they are inline with the shaft axis, how is this
not feathering?

take a look at the blades. they rotate and thus *reduce* drag, but they
certainly don't "feather".