How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

What percentage of manufacturer's suggested retail
should I offer for a 2003 Tayana sailboat which is
in good condition and has only been used as a demo ?

I know that the average selling price for brand new
motor homes (in the U.S.) is about 20 percent below
the MSRP but don't know if the same applies to boats.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Please reply
to the newsgroup. If there's a more appropriate group
to post this question please let me know. I've tried
the rec.boats.marketplace but my post didn't show up
because that group is moderated.

Also is it difficult to find experienced people to
help me sail my boat about halfway around the world
if I pay for all the living expenses ?

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

I know of this sailor named Captian Ron that will do it for free.

wrote in message
ink.net...

What percentage of manufacturer's suggested retail
should I offer for a 2003 Tayana sailboat which is
in good condition and has only been used as a demo ?

I know that the average selling price for brand new
motor homes (in the U.S.) is about 20 percent below
the MSRP but don't know if the same applies to boats.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Please reply
to the newsgroup. If there's a more appropriate group
to post this question please let me know. I've tried
the rec.boats.marketplace but my post didn't show up
because that group is moderated.

Also is it difficult to find experienced people to
help me sail my boat about halfway around the world
if I pay for all the living expenses ?

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

wrote in message
ink.net...

snip
Also is it difficult to find experienced people to
help me sail my boat about halfway around the world
if I pay for all the living expenses ?

A friend of mine based in the British Virgin Islands does a number
'deliveries' such as that but gets paid around $1K - $1.5K US per week PLUS
expenses.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

snip
Also is it difficult to find experienced people to
help me sail my boat about halfway around the world
if I pay for all the living expenses ?

A friend of mine based in the British Virgin Islands
does a number 'deliveries' such as that but gets paid
around $1K - $1.5K US per week PLUS expenses.

Sorry I didn't write more clearly. I won't need anybody
to deliver the boat for me but was thinking about finding
a couple of very experienced people to go sailing with me
(since I still don't know how to sail :-)

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

A friend of mine based in the British Virgin Islands
does a number 'deliveries' such as that but gets paid
around $1K - $1.5K US per week PLUS expenses.

$200/day, plus expenses, door to door.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

Whoa!
A Tayana is NOT a boat that one 'learns' to sail on. These are big,
slow to maneuver, with lots of forces generated; not, something you can
just walk up to and learn to sail on in a couple of hours. The
learning curve from such a boat will be very slow and long. And if you
havent any prior sailing experience, can get into one hell of a lot of
trouble in a hurry.

Why not consider to first learn to sail in a lightweight dinghy of
16-20 ft. Such a boat because of its rapid 'response' will very
quickly develop your skills, etc. needed for a larger sailboat.
Without these prior skills, having a first time (ever) large boat is a
disaster waiting to happen.

A larger heavyweight sailboat is not very sensitive, is slow to react,
and many times will not have the rapid 'tactile' feedback needed to
properly and safely sail her over a wide range of conditions - from
almost dead calm to blammo. A large boat is a 'momentum machine' ; is
slow to react and doesnt have the instant 'feedback' as a small boat -
so your brain already full of ***prior sailing experience*** has to
fill in the 'gaps' on a such large/heavy boat like a Tayana.

You dont walk up to a Boeing 757 and begin to learn to fly on such a
complicated rig, you usually start out in small aircraft: safer, faster
learning, etc. ... same with sailboats.

Sorry to put a pin in your baloon. I suggest if you're in a hurry
that you get enrolled in an accredited sailing school, first. Start
small and then work your way 'up'. Otherwise you can get seriously
hurt or worse, etc.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Whoa!
A Tayana is NOT a boat that one 'learns' to sail on. These are big,
slow to maneuver, with lots of forces generated; not, something you can
just walk up to and learn to sail on in a couple of hours.
snip

Good advice. My buddy let me take over the helm of a 75 foot wooden ketch
and was I surprised at the wheel response. I was fooling around trying to
steer by the compass leaving the harbour. The thing didn't seem to turn so I
over steered a couple of times. Before long the owner came marching back
giving me dirty looks. I gave the wheel back to my buddy who was captain at
that time.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

Whoa!
A Tayana is NOT a boat that one 'learns' to sail on.
These are big, slow to maneuver, with lots of forces
generated; not, something you can just walk up to and
learn to sail on in a couple of hours. The learning
curve from such a boat will be very slow and long.
And if you havent any prior sailing experience, can
get into one hell of a lot of trouble in a hurry.
...

Thanks for the advice. I don't intend to sail this boat
myself until I know how to do this. I can either go and
take sailing lessons in smaller boats or spend a lot of
time watching other people show me how to sail this boat.

One reason for buying a boat is because I would like to
go and live near the ocean but can't afford a house near
the ocean at this time.

I've just read "The Voyage of the Northern Magic" which
is about a Canadian family sailing around the world in
a 40-year-old sailboat. Their entire sailing experience
before taking this journey consisted of 6 afternoons in
on the Ottawa River. (See www.northernmagic.com)

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

I can totally agree with those dreams. Problem is that those 'dont
make it' arent around to tell their story.

A Tayana is a very expensive 'house boat'.

By no means let me put a damper on your dreams. The best teacher is -
time on the water.

Good luck.

;-)


In article k.net,
wrote:

Whoa!
A Tayana is NOT a boat that one 'learns' to sail on.
These are big, slow to maneuver, with lots of forces
generated; not, something you can just walk up to and
learn to sail on in a couple of hours. The learning
curve from such a boat will be very slow and long.
And if you havent any prior sailing experience, can
get into one hell of a lot of trouble in a hurry.
...

Thanks for the advice. I don't intend to sail this boat
myself until I know how to do this. I can either go and
take sailing lessons in smaller boats or spend a lot of
time watching other people show me how to sail this boat.

One reason for buying a boat is because I would like to
go and live near the ocean but can't afford a house near
the ocean at this time.

I've just read "The Voyage of the Northern Magic" which
is about a Canadian family sailing around the world in
a 40-year-old sailboat. Their entire sailing experience
before taking this journey consisted of 6 afternoons in
on the Ottawa River. (See www.northernmagic.com)

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

Good on ya!

Listen to what Rich says as he knows whereof he speaks. What he says is
true. You will learn to sail well much faster on a small boat.

It's true that if all you're interested in is getting the boat moving to
80% of it's potential, all you have to do it turn the wheel until you're
pointed in more or less the right direction then randomly fiddle with
the ropes until your moving. But that's a far cry from being able to
keep yourself and your passengers safe in all conditions. It's not that
sailing and seamanship is all that tough, it's just that you will find
most of the learning happens much faster and the mistakes are usually
less costly and dangerous on small boats. Neither the boat, nor the sea
are out to "get" you, but they can be coldly unforgiving of your mistakes.

Also, if anything, he minimizes the risks of learning to sail on such a
"momentum machine" (love that term, Rich!). This is not the boat to
begin learning how to maneuver around the docks in. If you try, you
will almost certainly cause some very expensive damage to your boat and
others and possibly injure people. Think of it as trying to learn to
drive in a fully loaded semi on wet ice in a crowded parking lot.

Another issue to consider, is that depending on where you want to be,
live aboard slips can be difficult or impossible to come by. Most
places around the SF bay have multi-year waiting lists for live aboard
slips (the marinas are limited to allowing a max of 10% of their slips
to be live aboards)

If you do proceed with your plan to get a Tayana, rest assured that you
will be getting a great boat. We've had ours for almost 3 years now and
love it.

Fair winds - Dan

wrote:
Whoa!
A Tayana is NOT a boat that one 'learns' to sail on.
These are big, slow to maneuver, with lots of forces
generated; not, something you can just walk up to and
learn to sail on in a couple of hours. The learning
curve from such a boat will be very slow and long.
And if you havent any prior sailing experience, can
get into one hell of a lot of trouble in a hurry.
...


Thanks for the advice. I don't intend to sail this boat
myself until I know how to do this. I can either go and
take sailing lessons in smaller boats or spend a lot of
time watching other people show me how to sail this boat.

One reason for buying a boat is because I would like to
go and live near the ocean but can't afford a house near
the ocean at this time.

I've just read "The Voyage of the Northern Magic" which
is about a Canadian family sailing around the world in
a 40-year-old sailboat. Their entire sailing experience
before taking this journey consisted of 6 afternoons in
on the Ottawa River. (See www.northernmagic.com)

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:22:50 GMT, wrote:


I've just read "The Voyage of the Northern Magic" which
is about a Canadian family sailing around the world in
a 40-year-old sailboat. Their entire sailing experience
before taking this journey consisted of 6 afternoons in
on the Ottawa River. (See www.northernmagic.com)

Yes, and I spoke to Diane Stuemer shortly before she died, and she
admitted that this was in fact a foolish way to learn on a heavy
displacement boat. Her husband had some experience...she was
essentially the weak link, but learned quickly AND the hard way.

I think the tale of Northern Magic is very inspiring, but it is about
how the process of sailing with one's family and encountering foreign
peoples in distant places can be transformative...it is NOT in my
opinion a great book loaded with seamanship tips. The husband,
Herbert, seems to spend most of every chapter puking into the bilges
because he's trying to repair an alternator upside down in a heavy
following sea while his wife and kids hand-steer. Sorry, but if you
plan properly and don't insist on computers and refrigeration 24/7,
you don't spend much of your trip repairing expensive and dodgy
equipment. More than once they seem to have bought fifty kilos of
frozen meat, only to have the compressor or some related gadget fail
again. The Stuemers had a very interesting and memorable trip, but
their inexperience made it more difficult, IMO, than it needed to be,
if the book is anything to go by.

Give me a windvane and a can opener and maybe a Koolatron for the
beer, and I'll be a happier cruiser.

Having said that, I'm not a Luddite: radar and weatherfax and SSB are
the cruiser's mates, but more stuff means more complexity and more
crap that breaks in the middle of heavy weather.

R.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

On 11 Aug 2004 23:25:20 -0700, (Rolf) wrote:

I was asking around for somebody to help me sail a 45 ft boat back
from BVI to florida. I am a very experience sailor, this is the second
boat I will own and I have been sailing for 20 years. So I am the
captn and I just need a pair of hands to let me sleep. This might be
a one week trip, and was told that it would be relatively easy to fing
some one for $1000 plus expenses.

That sounds reasonable for a deckhand and watchstander. The problem
comes in when you have somebody waiting with you for a weather window
or a diesel mechanic at $150 a day plus meals. Having been the
recipient of such largesse on occasion, I can only say, "Thanks!" In
the OP's case, I'd might insist on being there for provisioning and
boat prep anyway.

In your case I think they would consider this a "delivery". Many
deliveries are made with the owner on board sharing in the work. This
does not make it cheaper.

In my case, it makes me reluctant to take the job. An inexperienced
hand on a crossing is not much of an asset. Might even be a net
liabilty. Also, if you keep having to replay the "You're the owner,
but I'm the captain!" discussion every time there's a decision to be
made, it gets old.

In addition if you expect them to give you sailing lessons, this would
be extra.
I think that it will be difficult to find somebody who can take
responsibility of the boat and expect them to do it for free. Since
you don't know how to sail nobody will accept that you can
responsibility for the boat.

Right. I'd add one word though, just for clarity. I think that it
will be difficult to find somebody *competent* who can take
responsibility of the boat and expect them to do it for free. You can
sometimes find someone looking for a ride home or an adventure.
Whether you'll be glad to have them aboard after a week or so is a
different question.

__________________________________________________ __________
Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at worldwidewiley dot com
To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious.

Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and
logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

I am not sure what you are saying, rolf. What I am saying is if you want my
services, it is $200/day from the time my feet hit the tarmac to the time I
head out to the airport on the way back, plus expenses. I'm a good guy, Rolf,
for most won't do a delivery with the owner onboard.

A friend of mine based in the British Virgin Islands
does a number 'deliveries' such as that but gets paid
around $1K - $1.5K US per week PLUS expenses.

$200/day, plus expenses, door to door.

I was asking around for somebody to help me sail a 45 ft boat back
from BVI to florida. I am a very experience sailor, this is the second
boat I will own and I have been sailing for 20 years. So I am the
captn and I just need a pair of hands to let me sleep. This might be
a one week trip, and was told that it would be relatively easy to fing
some one for $1000 plus expenses.
In your case I think they would consider this a "delivery". Many
deliveries are made with the owner on board sharing in the work. This
does not make it cheaper.
In addition if you expect them to give you sailing lessons, this would
be extra.
I think that it will be difficult to find somebody who can take
responsibility of the boat and expect them to do it for free. Since
you don't know how to sail nobody will accept that you can
responsibility for the boat.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
I am not sure what you are saying, rolf. What I am saying is if you want
my
services, it is $200/day from the time my feet hit the tarmac to the time
I
head out to the airport on the way back, plus expenses. I'm a good guy,
Rolf,
for most won't do a delivery with the owner onboard.


** You got that right. I had to laugh at one story my buddy told.
The owner tried to leave our harbour one fall with a cheaper 2nd rate
'captain'. They ran aground before clearing the port. They limped back in
and my buddy was hired for the job on the following weeks departure. Seems
the owner thought he knew more than Vic, and after numerous heated
arguments, Vic threatened to lock the owner up in his cabin.
More trouble on the way back in the spring. After a rash of bad luck, storm
damage etc Vic arrived in Halifax with the boat. The owner blamed Vic for
the trouble and refused to reimburse him for out of pocket emergency
repairs. Vic went to see a lawyer friend and threatened seizure of the boat
if he wasn't paid. The hostile owner was boxed in and had to pay up after
the lawyer informed him that the damages would multiply if full blown legal
action was taken.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

I read the book with great interest. I am thinking that this is a
great adventure story where they took great risks. They got away with
it because the husband is a very great "fixer" After all how many
people would know how to rewire an alternator? They are also very
lucky. The third thing they did was that the husband taught the wife
how to sail all the way out from Ottawa. They first motored a long
way before they put up the mast and then they just did some costal
cruising before they went into blue water. The husband ceratinly knew
a lot about boating since they selected exactly the right kind of
boat.
Still I wonder would I have takem my two young kids and an
inexperinced wife on this trip? I probably would have considered far
too risky for my taste.


rhys wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:22:50 GMT, wrote:


I've just read "The Voyage of the Northern Magic" which
is about a Canadian family sailing around the world in
a 40-year-old sailboat. Their entire sailing experience
before taking this journey consisted of 6 afternoons in
on the Ottawa River. (See www.northernmagic.com)

Yes, and I spoke to Diane Stuemer shortly before she died, and she
admitted that this was in fact a foolish way to learn on a heavy
displacement boat. Her husband had some experience...she was
essentially the weak link, but learned quickly AND the hard way.

I think the tale of Northern Magic is very inspiring, but it is about
how the process of sailing with one's family and encountering foreign
peoples in distant places can be transformative...it is NOT in my
opinion a great book loaded with seamanship tips. The husband,
Herbert, seems to spend most of every chapter puking into the bilges
because he's trying to repair an alternator upside down in a heavy
following sea while his wife and kids hand-steer. Sorry, but if you
plan properly and don't insist on computers and refrigeration 24/7,
you don't spend much of your trip repairing expensive and dodgy
equipment. More than once they seem to have bought fifty kilos of
frozen meat, only to have the compressor or some related gadget fail
again. The Stuemers had a very interesting and memorable trip, but
their inexperience made it more difficult, IMO, than it needed to be,
if the book is anything to go by.

Give me a windvane and a can opener and maybe a Koolatron for the
beer, and I'll be a happier cruiser.

Having said that, I'm not a Luddite: radar and weatherfax and SSB are
the cruiser's mates, but more stuff means more complexity and more
crap that breaks in the middle of heavy weather.

R.

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

(JAXAshby) wrote:
I am not sure what you are saying, rolf. What I am
saying is if you want my services, it is $200/day from
the time my feet hit the tarmac to the time I head out
to the airport on the way back, plus expenses. I'm a
good guy, Rolf, for most won't do a delivery with the
owner onboard.

Approximately how many days does it take to sail half way
around the world, say from San Diego, CA to Singapore or
Thailand ?

And don't you need at least two people to sail safely ?

How much to offer below MSRP (for a Tayana) ?
 

On 12 Aug 2004 21:25:43 -0700, (Rolf) wrote:

Still I wonder would I have takem my two young kids and an
inexperinced wife on this trip? I probably would have considered far
too risky for my taste.

WARNING: SEMI-TOPICAL RANT...

I have mixed feelings today.

I just got beat to the "offer" stage on a 41 foot steel pilothouse
ketch that was for sale at a reasonable price at my club...more or
less under my nose, but I didn't see it until another buyer was close
to offering the PO's price. Buying now is two years too early for me
(gotta finish the mortgage!), but when I start shopping, I'll have a
five year old son and possibly a one year old or younger. I plan on
going when Son No. 1 is six or seven, and to "boat school" like the
Stuemers until the boy is 12 or 13 and to circumnavigate in the
interim, living off writing (yes, I know, but I'm already a
journalist, so I think I have a shot at travel writing) and "diesel
and repair money" from renting out our house.

So that means a few things: I want a cutter-rigged ketch. I want
steel, stable and Perkins or similar "big iron" diesel. I want a
pilothouse or a hard dodger, and preferably center cockpit. I want a
skeg hung rudder, and a modified long keel. I want 38-45 feet, and
room for a small workshop. The hull must be super clean and all
structures must have unbroken epoxy or similar coatings to inhibit
rust...foam tends to disguise things.

After that, I'm not picky...the interior can be crap, nice or even
absent. I would prefer to modify than to build, but the fact is that
my best shot at something appropriate is a half-finished Roberts-style
boat done nicely by an old guy who had a clue but has lost interest,
gotten sick or died.

Surprisingly, there are dozens of boats around like this. Some are
superbly done and sail nicely, but have interiors of plywood and
outdoor carpeting over 2 X 4 benches G

That's the boat for me, as it would take two years and $20,000 to do
the interior to my tastes, which are more systems than entertainment
oriented.

All this is to make a safe and comfortable passagemaker that will
mitigate somewhat a less-experienced wife and small kids, who
nonetheless will probably stand half-watches and do navigation by nine
or ten years of age.

The wife is already a keen Great Lakes sailor, but is weak in
terminology, brute strength and familiarity with engines. All that can
be remedied with time and drive, and she's the daughter of a boat
builder and fearless about the foredeck and going up the mast.

Here's a suggestion: let the wife helm and dock as often as possible.
It's good confidence building, and the real art is in sail-tweaking
and navigation, anyway G.

Everything's a risk, including going nuts and driving yourself to an
early grave in a compromised office job. My wife and I have decided
that the risk of taking kids offshore during our "prime earning years"
is very much worth it when compared to the regret of not doing it at
all, or not being able to do it in our sixties due to age, illness or
family duties. I'm 43, she's 30...we want to be gone by the time I'm
47 and she's 34 and back (if ever) when I'm 53 or so.

My mother died at 68 in 2002, never having travelled much, despite
having had the money, because there were always obstacles, real or
imagined. My father at 80 is now alone and pretty much fixing to die.
I suppose if he leaves me their estate I could buy a house or two and
become a land-locked tinpot slum lord, but I think the best tribute to
their memory is to "carpe diem" and get a steel boat and give my
kid(s) the kind of childhood very few children experience, one full or
learning, adventure and real responsibility.

The late Diane Stuemer may not have been the best sailor, but she
learned enough to survive, and her kids had an enviable few years at
sea. Her husband, maybe less so, but I doubt he'd trade it for all the
fixed alternators in the world.

Don't give your kids Gameboys. Better a sextant!

So get the boat and go, my friend.
R.

rhys wrote:
...
So that means a few things: I want a cutter-rigged
ketch. I want steel, stable and Perkins or similar
"big iron" diesel. I want a pilothouse or a hard
dodger, and preferably center cockpit.
...

So if I want to sail to Tahiti and South East Asia
one day (would it be a bad idea to get a fiberglass
boat (like a Tayana) or is this what most people do
anyway ?

Plenty of people sail all over the world in fiberglass boats, wooden
boats and steel boats, and have wonderful trips.

There are/is a school of thought that is focused on the steel or
aluminum boat as the "ideal" because it might survive an encounter with
a reef. The odds of testing that theory, if you are a careful sailor
should be fairly small, hence the success rate of other types of
construction.

What you do want is a boat built sturdily enough to take a fair amount
of abuse. In the Sydney/Hobart race that got hit hard, a couple of boats
essentially collapsed under the weight of waves breaking on board.
But that too should be an uncommon rather than a common occurrence. The
Hiscocks sailed thousands of miles in various boats, and claimed they
never hit a survival storm because of good planning. Dave Martin
circumnavigated in a reinforced Cal 25, starting a family on the way. He
and his wife Jaja cruised for years with infants in arms and toddlers.
Check out the Martin chronicles on SetSail.com:
http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/martin/martin.html

Check out the cruising logs at: http://cruisenews.net/index.php

All kinds of people, all kinds of boats and materials. The common
denominator? They all managed to take in the docklines and go......

Have fun,

Jonathan



wrote:
rhys wrote:

...
So that means a few things: I want a cutter-rigged
ketch. I want steel, stable and Perkins or similar
"big iron" diesel. I want a pilothouse or a hard
dodger, and preferably center cockpit.
...


So if I want to sail to Tahiti and South East Asia
one day (would it be a bad idea to get a fiberglass
boat (like a Tayana) or is this what most people do
anyway ?

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:33:13 GMT, wrote:


So if I want to sail to Tahiti and South East Asia
one day (would it be a bad idea to get a fiberglass
boat (like a Tayana) or is this what most people do
anyway ?

No...no...not at all. Let's face it, most of the boats under 50 feet
today are fibreglass, particularly out of North America.

There is nothing wrong with fibreglass per se. When done correctly (as
can be said of ANY hull material, including the much disparaged
ferro-concrete). a fibreglass boat can be safe, fast and reasonable to
maintain.

However....G

If you look at the boats that ACTUALLY TRAVEL THE WORLD, as opposed to
those found in crowded Carribean anchorages, you will find a
substantial portion of them are metal, usually steel, but frequently
aluminum. By this I mean WORLD travel (including the far less popular
high latitudes).

From this, you can draw a couple of obsevations, not conclusions:

Metal boats are popular with people in oceanic cruising, long-distance
passagemaking and high-latitude travel. For the sake of argument, if
95 out of 100 boats *capable* of passagemaking are fibreglass in a
given anchorage, with the rest wood or metal, the odds are much
stronger to my knowledge that of those boats ACTUALLY PASSAGEMAKING,
perhaps 30 to 40 per cent will be metal or wood (cold-molded, etc.)

This does not necessarily mean that metal boats, for instance, are
more appropriate for passagemaking than fibreglass.

It could mean, however, that whatever causes an owner to choose metal,
also drives the decision to travel the world and not drop anchor in
Margaritaville. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Metal has some severe disadvantages relating to coatings, maintenance,
weight and design. Metal boats (not aluminum) can be slower and uglier
to some eyes.

Advantages include ease of repair (if steel, the owner can self-repair
after learning basic welding) ease of customization, brute strength,
potential safety margin, and so on.

Finally, I own a cored deck, fibreglass boat which I enjoy. But I am
sourcing steel boats for world travel. That's me. If you GAVE me a
Tayana, which is one of the better offshore plastic boat names to my
understanding, I wouldn't sneer for a moment. But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,
so suspicious am I of the design and construction decisions (wide
companionways, huge drinks-friendly cockpits, low lifelines, unbacked
deck gear, lack of handholds below, overly complex wiring and
plumbing, etc.) of many of today's "showboats". They look great, and
maybe they will survive a storm, but I would have better peace of mind
in something Dutch, steely and built for the North Sea or to survive a
hard grounding in coral reef.

Your mileage may of course vary. I love Dudley Dix and Robert Perry in
fibreglass, and Wallstrom/Brewer in steel, and Kanter in
aluminum/steel. There are others, but those spring to mind.

R.

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:29:22 -0400, Jonathan
wrote:

All kinds of people, all kinds of boats and materials. The common
denominator? They all managed to take in the docklines and go......

That in sum is the crucial point. I have my preferences, but if time
passes and all I can afford is something merely adequate, I won't
hesitate.

R.

rhys wrote:



So that means a few things: I want a cutter-rigged ketch. I want
steel, stable and Perkins or similar "big iron" diesel. I want a
pilothouse or a hard dodger, and preferably center cockpit.

In his "Coastwise and Offshore Cruising Wrinkles", Tom Colvin
writes: "The supreme robber baron, vandal, thief, pirate, is
found aboard too often, threatening the safety of a proper sea
going vessel: the cockpit. It has no place at sea."

If you look at the boats that ACTUALLY TRAVEL THE WORLD, as opposed to
those found in crowded Carribean anchorages, you will find a
substantial portion of them are metal, usually steel, but frequently
aluminum.

no, you will not find "substantial portion" to be metal. The vast, vast, vast
majority of them are fiberglass. You will find a higher % of them to be metal
than compared to the general boat population, but by no means a "substantial
portion".

The real advantage of a metal boat is that it is cheeeep on the used market.

From this, you can draw a couple of obsevations, not conclusions:


one can not *draw* an observation.

ACTUALLY PASSAGEMAKING,
perhaps 30 to 40 per cent will be metal or wood

I seem to recall the recorded data shows of boats ACTUALLY PASSAGEMAKING about
2% - 5% or so will be metal, and a % or so wood. Far and away fiberglass is
most common if for no other reason than fiberglass boats are far and away the
most common.

of course, for a given strength boat, a fiberglass boat will weigh less, carry
more stores, be less top heavy, and carry less sails to go faster, but what the
hey.

whatever causes an owner to choose metal,

irrational fear of dying is the usual reason. looking for a bargain in a used
boat is another.

But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

JAXAshby wrote:

But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

What are the 'emotional qualifications'?

to be unfraid of one's skills to handle a fine quality boat in rather easy
winds.

But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

What are the 'emotional qualifications'?

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
rhys wrote:
So that means a few things: I want a cutter-rigged ketch.
I want steel, stable and Perkins or similar "big iron"
iesel. I want a pilothouse or a hard dodger, and preferably
center cockpit.

In his "Coastwise and Offshore Cruising Wrinkles", Tom Colvin
writes: "The supreme robber baron, vandal, thief, pirate, is
found aboard too often, threatening the safety of a proper
sea going vessel: the cockpit. It has no place at sea."

Does he mean the cockpit or the robber baron... has no place
at sea ?

JAXAshby wrote:

to be unfraid of one's skills to handle a fine quality boat in rather easy
winds.

Making a realistic assessment of one's limitations is a form
of emotional and moral cowardice?



But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

What are the 'emotional qualifications'?

wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
rhys wrote:
So that means a few things: I want a cutter-rigged ketch.
I want steel, stable and Perkins or similar "big iron"
iesel. I want a pilothouse or a hard dodger, and preferably
center cockpit.

In his "Coastwise and Offshore Cruising Wrinkles", Tom Colvin
writes: "The supreme robber baron, vandal, thief, pirate, is
found aboard too often, threatening the safety of a proper
sea going vessel: the cockpit. It has no place at sea."

Does he mean the cockpit or the robber baron... has no place
at sea ?

Are you taking it personally?

no, but claiming one's talents are fine but then blaming a fine boat for being
inadequate in ordinary weather is.

to be unfraid of one's skills to handle a fine quality boat in rather easy
winds.

Making a realistic assessment of one's limitations is a form
of emotional and moral cowardice?



But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a
moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

What are the 'emotional qualifications'?

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 05:37:17 GMT, Roy Jose Lorr
wrote:


In his "Coastwise and Offshore Cruising Wrinkles", Tom Colvin
writes: "The supreme robber baron, vandal, thief, pirate, is
found aboard too often, threatening the safety of a proper sea
going vessel: the cockpit. It has no place at sea."

I'm reading another Colvin book from the '70s at the moment. He's
dogmatic, but knowledgeable, or so I am thinking so far. I like center
cockpits for visibility and layout (they are less great for raising
the CE, alas), but I like them quite compact, with a bridgedeck and a
pretty small, easily sealed companionway.

At the other extreme is the very shallow, very wide, missing transom
look of a lot of performance boats. They accomplish the same thing in
different fashions: getting water and hence weight OFF or OUT OF the
boat in a hurry.

I gather Colvin hates the idea of getting pooped in a Jacuzzi-sized
cockpit. Well, who can blame him?

R.

JAXAshby wrote:

no, but claiming one's talents are fine but then blaming a fine boat for being
inadequate in ordinary weather is.

Rightly or wrongly expressing an opinion of a boat's limitations
signifies moral and emotional cowardice?



to be unfraid of one's skills to handle a fine quality boat in rather easy
winds.

Making a realistic assessment of one's limitations is a form
of emotional and moral cowardice?



But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a
moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

What are the 'emotional qualifications'?








--

The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.

rhys wrote:



I gather Colvin hates the idea of getting pooped in a Jacuzzi-sized
cockpit. Well, who can blame him?

Fitted cushion salesmen, for starters.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:21:05 GMT, Roy Jose Lorr
wrote:



rhys wrote:



I gather Colvin hates the idea of getting pooped in a Jacuzzi-sized
cockpit. Well, who can blame him?

Fitted cushion salesmen, for starters.

Well, every aftermarket boat sales job is a compromise, or so they say
G

R.

I will say it again, dood of little comprehension:

claiming one's talents are fine but then blaming a fine boat for being
inadequate in ordinary weather is.



no, but claiming one's talents are fine but then blaming a fine boat for
being
inadequate in ordinary weather is.

Rightly or wrongly expressing an opinion of a boat's limitations
signifies moral and emotional cowardice?



to be unfraid of one's skills to handle a fine quality boat in rather
easy
winds.

Making a realistic assessment of one's limitations is a form
of emotional and moral cowardice?



But a lot of the
fibreglass boats sold new today I wouldn't take into a 40 knot wind,

if you are afraid to take a Tayana 37 into a 40 knot wind *you* are a
moral
reprobate for even thinking of going offshore in any boat. you are
not
qualified. emotionally.

get a motorhome.

What are the 'emotional qualifications'?








--

The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.

hey, moose brain (what a weird addy you have. yuk!) "fitted cockpit cushions"
are considered any part of the required equipment on an ocean voyaging boat to
make it more seaworthy.

stay tied to the dock, dood.


Date: 8/19/2004 6:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:



rhys wrote:



I gather Colvin hates the idea of getting pooped in a Jacuzzi-sized
cockpit. Well, who can blame him?

Fitted cushion salesmen, for starters.