Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)


This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

This discussion (or the predecessor) began on this forum, here
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...em-106061.html.
Folks weighed in, but Frigoboat Info took it offline with me, as the problem
was to prove complex.

In the end, we tried just about everything. FI sent me an air cooler, in
case, somehow, the keel cooler was damaged by running it out of the water.
We tried it in replacement of, and then in tandem with, the keel cooler.
The issue got worse. I'll save you the gory details, other than that I had
more than 1000 data points of time, pressures, plus high pressure connector,
low pressure connector, compressor and box temps, over 3 months or so, and
included 2 lengthy evacuations, the second of which was nearly 2 days, and
recharges.

Nothing worked. FI felt that adding a cap tube filter and a filter dryer to
the system would resolve a symptom which was suggestive of something
blocking the system, but which moved from time to time, allowing
intermittent cooling. However, the cap tube filter involved cutting a line
and doing some silver soldering, a task FI felt better reserved for a
talented refrigeration professional. Given the finicky nature of the
Frigoboat systems, due to their size, I felt that one who was specifically
knowledgeable about Frigoboat - including perhaps my coming to Annapolis,
for FI's team, would be best. FI recommended Clay Hansen, of Hansen Marine
Services, we got to the dock literally down the driveway from his shop, and
commenced.

The first week's adventures can be seen in the thread linked above. Nothing
we did changed matters, despite the rather extreme measures we tried. The
case was tried, and the jury was out. This morning, the jury came in.


I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

The oil used in BD compressors changes state if it gets too hot, per Clay's
consultants, who have seen this happen many times, in older systems. It
doesn't happen immediately, which is why it's nearly never seen in new
systems. The first clue (which Clay observed as irregular, and pursued with
his other pros) was that during the flush/nitrogen blow, a yellow oily
liquid came out. It should have been clear, or perhaps slightly brown.

That change of state results in the oil not remaining perfectly liquid. I
don't know the chemistry, but the effect is that it clogs stuff up,
particularly in really small orifices, such as, perhaps, the keel cooler (I
don't know what the size is on the tubing in the keel cooler, but infer it
must be pretty small to allow the lengths needed for cooling in that small
package), and for sure, the capillary tube, which, if not the keel cooler,
in our case, was for sure packed up (see above about attempts to remedy).

Unfortunately, if absolutely all of the contaminated oil were not removed
from the system, it will only happen again, later.

The bottom line is to start over.

If I had it to do over again, I'd not change anything other than to have
something more effective than the very small heat sink and fan on the
compressor, and make very damn sure the system was not run out of the water
(or, perhaps, without an add-on air cooler, which VecoNA supplied for
testing purposes - swapping for the keel cooler, or even in tandem didn't
solve the problem).

As I understand it, if the compressor is kept cool, this problem is unlikely
to occur. If not, over time, it's nearly certain to occur. Whether or not
the Frigoboat air-cooled system, as provided as a single unit, rather than
as an add-on air cooler, would be sufficient to move the enough air over the
compressor to avoid this in the future I can't say. But it's not a box
system which completely encloses the compressor, channeling air, lessening
the air flow effectiveness over the compressor, and so, as it was in the
yard (or would be at anchor, too), with ambient temps close to, or perhaps
exceeding 100F, that might prove problematic, eventually.

At one point in my testing with the add-on air cooler, before I'd hooked it
up, electrically or with refrigerant, I merely directed the air flow from
the air cooler fan on the compressor, and temperatures dropped notably, even
though the heat sink fan wasn't connected (I had to use those terminals for
the air cooler fan). Perhaps severe ventilation would have been enoughto
make my failure not happen - but I doubt it, as we had an AC bullet fan
directed on the compressor during the time it was run out of the water, to
no avail (or, at least, the problem occurred, anyway).

All this presumes that I caused the problem by running it out of the water.
I suppose it's possible that compressor temperatures, as we were in the
tropics for a couple of years of the use of the system, and the compressor's
in the engine room, could have reached that overheat condition without the
added stress of running the keel cooler out of the water. We'll never know,
as I don't care to attempt to duplicate the circumstances; once bitten,
twice $hy, so to speak, and we'll be very different in our new installation.

I have to say, however, that until I stuck my foot in it, the system was a
real pleasure. But perhaps my egregious error can be avoided by others in
the future. To be sure, while I didn't see the caution at the time,
Frigoboat makes it clear you should not run the system out of the water
without - at a minimum - having water running over the keel cooler.
However, there was no mention of the actual consequences. For a techie
(well, interested in everything, and moderately able to understand the
physics and realities), that information would have been orders of magnitude
more effective to me than "don't do this" - with its implication that it
would simply be inefficient, rather than destructive. Stupidly, because it
continued to work a treat, I did that for a time, as, all around it, we were
epoxy fairing, grinding and all that sort of stuff at the time. It can't
have helped, whatever the other instances of high temperatures for the
compressor may have been.

However, in the end, our choice for replacement is a Sea Frost air and
water-cooled (like the air cooler is an option after the fact on Frigoboat
Keel Cooler systems, this will allow, when the Keel Cooler is removed,
installation of another thru-hull for water-cooling as backup or extremely
hot circumstances) system. It solves a problem which would present to
someone retrofitting cold plates and engine-driven systems, that of access
in an already-built box. The evaporator plate which I got (see
http://www.justpickone.org/skip/gall...ze=640&start=0
and onward for what we did initially) couldn't possibly be inserted into our
current box. Whether we have to cut it up to get it out remains to be seen.

The Sea Frost system relies on two separate evaporator plates which will
make it through our existing door opening, and are much deeper (courtesy of
our depth of the box), allowing for the same surface area in a different
configuration, and a different configuration than the troublesome capillary
tube (Frigoboat's solution) to accomplish the superheat portion of the
cycle. That they are also fully stainless steel is encouraging/reassuring,
in that I can't be ham-handed enough during defrosting to damage them, as
could be the case with the typical aluminum evaporator plate (and which was
the reason I chose a SS-fronted plate to begin with, despite it being less
efficient than straight aluminum).

I have no reason to expect other than stellar results with our new system.
And my experience should NOT be a reason not to buy a Frigoboat system - but
it should be a heads-up as to how you treat it, if you do.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

On Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:38:40 -0500, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

I have no reason to expect other than stellar results with our new system.
And my experience should NOT be a reason not to buy a Frigoboat system - but
it should be a heads-up as to how you treat it, if you do.

===

Interesting. Hope your new system works well for you.

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.


I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.


trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

There is supposed to be a fail-safe circuit that shuts down
an overheating compressor before it becomes damaged.
Even my cheapo Adler Barbour has one of those.

--
Sir Gregory

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 17:12:41 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.


I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.


trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

And yet again the intrepid Capt. Neil advances into the fray.... and
****es all over his toes.

You ignorant ass, yes oil does "change state" when over heated, and if
you had the brains of a cockroach you would have looked into the facts
before you posted, rather then make a stupid statement and get
corrected.

Try:
http://highperformancehvac.com/compr...gnosis-repair/

sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/rea...or-overheating

or any of the other 27,000 returns that google shows when searching
for "change in overheated refrigeration oil".

--
Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 17:12:41 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.


I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.


trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

And yet again the intrepid Capt. Neil advances into the fray.... and
****es all over his toes.

You ignorant ass, yes oil does "change state" when over heated, and if
you had the brains of a cockroach you would have looked into the facts
before you posted, rather then make a stupid statement and get
corrected.

Try:
http://highperformancehvac.com/compr...gnosis-repair/

sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/rea...or-overheating

or any of the other 27,000 returns that google shows when searching
for "change in overheated refrigeration oil"


All that is but a non sequitur, Brucie-boi!

Unfortunately, you ignorantly chose to ignore the main point
of my response which point is, don't believe a bunch of crap
about overheated oil being the problem. *If* there, indeed, was
overheated oil then that indicates the fail-safe circuitry for an
overheated compressor was inoperable. THAT is a warranty
problem and THAT is why the Rubes at Frigiboat chose to
claim it was Skippy's problem for overheating the compressor
when, in fact, it was Frigiboat's problem because the overheat
censor/circuitry failed to work.

Here again is the main point which you edited out because
you ignorantly chose to ignore it because it serves to debunk
your childish ad hominem attack.

"There is supposed to be a fail-safe circuit that shuts down
an overheating compressor before it becomes damaged.
Even my cheapo Adler Barbour has one of those."


--
Sir Gregory

On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 13:13:57 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 17:12:41 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.


I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.


trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

And yet again the intrepid Capt. Neil advances into the fray.... and
****es all over his toes.

You ignorant ass, yes oil does "change state" when over heated, and if
you had the brains of a cockroach you would have looked into the facts
before you posted, rather then make a stupid statement and get
corrected.

Try:
http://highperformancehvac.com/compr...gnosis-repair/

sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/rea...or-overheating

or any of the other 27,000 returns that google shows when searching
for "change in overheated refrigeration oil"


All that is but a non sequitur, Brucie-boi!

Unfortunately, you ignorantly chose to ignore the main point
of my response which point is, don't believe a bunch of crap
about overheated oil being the problem. *If* there, indeed, was
overheated oil then that indicates the fail-safe circuitry for an

I took a point that you clearly stated, I even highlighted your
statement, with quotation marks, to show just what part of your post I
was replying to. What are you doing now? Trying to weasel out of the
fact that you wrote it?

Or in other words one could, based on your latest assertion, determine
that you post something about which you apparently know nothing about
50% of the time and we should expend effort to try and figure out
which part of your statement is correct and which part is the lie?

Amazing! You lie half of the time and apparently now want applause for
telling the truth half of the time.

The part you seem to be missing is that you, a non cruiser, are
slanging Skip, who is a cruiser. You really belong to a site entitled
something like "floating Trailer Trash" or perhaps "Permanently Moored
Sailor".
--
Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok

I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not get
in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has been
playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces of
oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on my
having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it doesn't have
to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless whomever your
builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an overheat might well
be missed.

The bottom line, for Frigoboat (my new system ducts its air over the
compressor, and based on my small test of using the fan in the supplied air
cooler, alone - no refrigerant cooling in that unit - blowing on my
compressor resulting in a significant drop in temps, that will eliminate
even the *possibility* of overheat), is that the tiny heat sink and tinier
fan they use is insufficient, regardless of circumstance.

I base this on the temps achieved in the compressor with all three possible
connections - keel or air cooled alone, and both in tandem - of condensor.
That, with the air alone, resulted in very high temps at the compressor and
input line, but ambient temps at the output line of the air cooler. So,
with entirely adequate cooling of the output gas, the compressor and output
line were still in the range of overheat.

My new system is different in several significant ways.

First is that it's not a capillary tube-based system. That leads to the
second, that the smallest diameter line is 1/4" compared to the cap tube's
hair-width diameter (I don't know what it really was, but the outside was
about 1/16"). That cap tube, the evaporator-mounted
filter-drier/accumulator and ends of the suction line at the evaporator have
been sent off to Richard for his testing (he's been scratching his head for
years at Frigoboat failures).

Also, our new system has a filter-dryer-accumulator, with a sight glass.
That volume is massively more than the combined cap tube filter and filter
dryer which were sent by Frigoboat in trying to resolve our problem. So,
not only will I have a visual means of seeing charge state, the volume
makes it less sensitive to exact amounts, as well as providing a relatively
huge level of filtration/drying. I've been advised that unless the system
is opened (no quick-connects in this system), there's never going to be a
need to replace/refresh this.

Our system will have a (manually adjustable) valve which controls the level
of refrigerant return/input to the evaporator(s - we have two, now, which
ALSO will be more efficient due to the 8-sides available for air
circulation, rather than our bent plate's 4) rather than the cap tube, at
1/4" and not subject to fouling even if there WERE contamination. Which is
extremely unlikely because...

The system is comprised of a sealed box. The cooling fan on the condensor
either pulls or pushes air over the compressor, depending on the fan
orientation. In our case, it will be vented to the outside, in order to
dump heat from the engine room where it's located, rather than pulled in
from outside, so as to avoid salt-laden air. As our engine room is
reasonably well sealed, the incoming air will be traveling through the
bilge, the coolest place on the boat not refrigerated. In any event, this
unit has been proven successful even in 100° air - and, if I should ever
care to add it, is capable of water cooling, as well. However, given the 1A
draw on the pump, it would have to be in very cold water for the extra heat
dumping to be energy efficient. As we don't expect to spend any time in
that environment, likely that will remain only a sales point for whomever
buys the boat after we're off.

Finally, not related to the above, I was able to easily get out the
evaporator. All my heat-gun defrostings had made the adhesive of the
stainless plate easy to separate, and that folded into a third (on the bends
we used to make the 40" plate fit our box), which fit through the freezer
door opening. The evaporator was even easier, being aluminum. So, in the
end, getting the old system out was much easier than expected.

The new system was expected to be two 15x19 plates, but an error due to a
quickie measure meant that they wouldn't fit on the sides, by about 1/4" (my
supplier used a tape measure, and didn't allow for the bend, or something,
and the slight tapering of the box at the bottom), and so we now are waiting
for the arrival of a 14x19 plate, with the other 15" being mounted to the
hull-side wall, as being big enough. The usual design parameter is to place
the plates on opposing walls, but our installer felt that getting the extra
cooling outweighed the disadvantage of adjacent plates. As it is, he had to
use the smaller size because, while he COULD have ground down the mounting
edges to allow it to fit it would have been hard on the other plate, losing
two sides of air circulation behind the plates. So, while he DID do some
grinding, he quit when he saw how they'd lay together, in favor of the
increased air movement. As we STILL had/are having to wait for another part
to come, I wish that he'd abandoned it immediately rather than drilling the
holes in the hull-side wall, and gone for the slightly smaller plates
entirely, returning the two he ordered before cutting into the tubes and
attempting grinding of the edges to make the second one fit. But, it is
what it is.

As it is, since the new compressor is a BD80, it's got ample horses to pull
out the BTU, so it's probably all pretty academic, other than perhaps the
amp draw, as this system's lowest speed is half again the amps the BD50 it
replaces.

A small annoyance is that this system has its own smart/manual controller
with an integrated Carel thermostat, which we already had for the freezer,
so I now have a spare for my other Carel, which controls the spillover fan,
and, as the Frigo compressor is presumed inalterably contaminated, a spare
controller, to go along with a spare smart speed controller, as well. The
good news is that it's now going to be right next to the reefer's Carel, so
we can see the state and/or alter to manual control if we care to (we never
did other than in the testing we were doing for the Frigoboat) without
having to peer into the engine room.

It's not yet installed, but I have every expectation that it will work as
it's supposed to, out of the box. More when it's finished.

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not get
in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has been
playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces of
oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on my
having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it doesn't have
to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless whomever your
builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an overheat might well
be missed.

Well, that sure is a defective engineering design. It's a simple
matter to place a thermostat in or on the condenser which, when
it reaches a preset critical temperature, switches the unit off.

An overheat failsafe that's elsewhere is African engineering at best.

Frigoboat should be ashamed of such an inferior design.

--
Sir Gregory

" Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote in message
...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not
get in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has
been playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces
of oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on
my having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it
doesn't have to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless
whomever your builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an
overheat might well be missed.

Well, that sure is a defective engineering design. It's a simple
matter to place a thermostat in or on the condenser which, when
it reaches a preset critical temperature, switches the unit off.

An overheat failsafe that's elsewhere is African engineering at best.

Frigoboat should be ashamed of such an inferior design.

--
Sir Gregory


Kollmann has several areas of design complaint about the Frigoboat system...

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

On Friday, November 8, 2013 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-8, Flying Pig wrote:
" Sir Gregory Hall, Esq�" �ke wrote in message
...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not
get in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has
been playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces
of oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on
my having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it
doesn't have to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless
whomever your builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an
overheat might well be missed.

Well, that sure is a defective engineering design. It's a simple
matter to place a thermostat in or on the condenser which, when
it reaches a preset critical temperature, switches the unit off.

An overheat failsafe that's elsewhere is African engineering at best.

Frigoboat should be ashamed of such an inferior design.

--
Sir Gregory


Kollmann has several areas of design complaint about the Frigoboat system....

L8R

Skip

--
Kollmann has several areas where he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. He has books full of mis-information and half-truths. Take what he says with a lot of salt....