"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:

Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is
doomed to failure.

Why?

Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft
in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly
aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange.

IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel
both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the
propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible
vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they
rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges,
one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch
of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move
more than a blonde hair.

Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy.


Wilbur Hubbard

BullPucky!
Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge between
their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while checking the gaps
at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the measurement points rotate
with the flanges). If they neither tighten or loosen on the gauge finger
through a whole turn the angular alignment is 'dead nuts'.

Sadly, that's only about half the picture. Just imaging the two shafts not
being on the same centerline. Feeler gauges might indicate that the two
flanges were parallel but there STILL would be binding due to the two flanges
being off center - hence the need to use dial gauges.

Look at the illustrations, please. Maybe you're bright enough to understand
what I'm talking about.

Like I said and I still maintain I said correctly, Skippy is only doing HALF
the job. And, apparently this also applies to you as well.

http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf

Wilbur Hubbard

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:41:31 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:41:43 -0400, WaIIy wrote:

I think he put the feeler gauge in and then tightened the bolts.

===

As others have pointed out, that is not the right way to do it.
Tightening the bolts on the coupling will correct minor misalignment
by stressing the engine mounts but that is not what you want.

It was a joke.



As are you, sir!

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:

"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:

Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is
doomed to failure.

Why?

Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the
shaft in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be
perfectly aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange.

IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly
parallel both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else,
when the propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a
terrible vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as
they rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial
gauges, one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an
18th inch of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges
must not move more than a blonde hair.

Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy.


Wilbur Hubbard

BullPucky!
Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge
between their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while
checking the gaps at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the
measurement points rotate with the flanges). If they neither tighten
or loosen on the gauge finger through a whole turn the angular
alignment is 'dead nuts'.

Sadly, that's only about half the picture. Just imaging the two shafts
not being on the same centerline. Feeler gauges might indicate that
the two flanges were parallel but there STILL would be binding due to
the two flanges being off center - hence the need to use dial gauges.

Look at the illustrations, please. Maybe you're bright enough to
understand what I'm talking about.

Like I said and I still maintain I said correctly, Skippy is only
doing HALF the job. And, apparently this also applies to you as well.

http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf

Wilbur Hubbard

Well have you got any reputable reference for marine engine shaft
alignment using two dial gauges? Your link above uses feeler gauges.

Also what about static shaft deflection due to its own weight and the
weight of the half coupling? I'd be interested to hear your version of
how to compensate for it in practice.


--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL

On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:31:44 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"WaIIy" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:41:31 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:41:43 -0400, WaIIy wrote:

I think he put the feeler gauge in and then tightened the bolts.

===

As others have pointed out, that is not the right way to do it.
Tightening the bolts on the coupling will correct minor misalignment
by stressing the engine mounts but that is not what you want.

It was a joke.



As are you, sir!
\

Ah, the voice of the fool is heard thru the land. But my dear sir, it
is far better to be a joke then a horse's arse.

On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:30:02 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in
anews.com:

Poor Skippy!!! It sounds like your amateur attempt at alignment is
doomed to failure.

Why?

Because there is a lot more to alignment that just centering the shaft
in the log. A perfectly centered shaft can fail to be perfectly
aligned with the transmission output shaft/flange.

IOW, if the two flanges that bolt together are not perfectly parallel
both top to bottom and side to side and everywhere else, when the
propeller shaft is centered in the log there will be a terrible
vibration set up as the two flanges will bind and loosen as they
rotate. The only way to get them perfect is by using two dial gauges,
one for each flange and as you rotate them with perhaps an 18th inch
of space between them (in neutral) by hand both gauges must not move
more than a blonde hair.

Sounds to me you are doing the job only halfway, Skippy.


Wilbur Hubbard

BullPucky!
Its simple enough to get them dead in line with a feeler gauge between
their faces. Simply rotate the two flanges together while checking the gaps
at four points seperated by 90 degrees. (the measurement points rotate
with the flanges). If they neither tighten or loosen on the gauge finger
through a whole turn the angular alignment is 'dead nuts'.

Sadly, that's only about half the picture. Just imaging the two shafts not
being on the same centerline. Feeler gauges might indicate that the two
flanges were parallel but there STILL would be binding due to the two flanges
being off center - hence the need to use dial gauges.

Look at the illustrations, please. Maybe you're bright enough to understand
what I'm talking about.

Like I said and I still maintain I said correctly, Skippy is only doing HALF
the job. And, apparently this also applies to you as well.

http://www.hellersolutions.com/C350/...llManual10.pdf

Wilbur Hubbard

Ah yes, you maintain, but you don't know (as usual).

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Hi, Y'all,

I'm enjoying the arguments :{))

While I was aware, of course, of the intricacies of alignment, I'd not seen
the westerbeke manual pages.

In fact, I did just as it suggested. Once I got it aligned, I pulled the
bolts and rotated the tranny 1/4 turn and reinserted the bolts. Pulled
mightily as I twisted my wrist, and repeated my feeler gauge bits at the
entire circumference, rotated 90° per time. Can't get the gauge between any
of the faces...

There are actually more than one Bruce (the other being someone I met in the
Endeavour group many years ago, who splashed his 43 after 10 years ashore,
recently) who've had no movement once back in the water for a time; I'm
hopeful I'll have the same results, but am prepared to do battle with the
system again as needed.

L8R, y'all - pix to come.

Skip



So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my
descriptions...

This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange.

1) I left the bolts loose.

2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the
tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing
at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny
plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of
360°).

3) I unbolted and rotated the transmission flange 90° and rebolted (see
#1).

4) Shake the engine vigorously

Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions.

Wash and dry hands.

Go home.

L8R, y'all...

Skip
--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

"Flying Pig" wrote in message news:k2iqko$1dh$1@dont-
[trim]


So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my
descriptions...

This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange.

1) I left the bolts loose.

Got it!

2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the
tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing
at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny
plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of
360°).

Got it! But how dumb is it to tighten down the bolts all the way and then
attempt to insert a feeler gauge? Duh. There is enough power in a tightened
down set of bolts to draw together flanges that ARE NOT PARALLEL. Can't you
see this simple reality, Skippy?


3) I unbolted and rotated the transmission flange 90° and rebolted (see
#1).

4) Shake the engine vigorously

Rinse, repeat #s 1-4, until the tranny has been in all 4 positions.

Wash and dry hands.

Go home.

Well, put on your thinking cap and go BACK TO WORK because you did it wrong.

Here's why:

prop shaft motor/transmission shaft
-------------------------------| |-----------------------

Note how if they are indeed on the same centerline then the flanges will be
parallel.

But what if this is the case: (exagerated, of course due to interface
limitiations)

-----------------------------|
|---------------------------------

Note how both shaft plates are parallel but they will BIND LIKE HELL when
tightened together.


I hope this helps.



Wilbur Hubbard

"Bruce" wrote in message
...

Ah, the voice of the fool is heard thru the land. But my dear sir, it
is far better to be a joke then a horse's arse.


Says, "Bruce, stuck at a Bangkok Dock" for the past 25 years because
he failed to complete his planned circumnavigation because he wasn't
up to the task.

Failing, no matter how lofty the goal, is still failing. It is far better to
be a
success at coastal cruising than a failure at world cruising.

Tsk tsk!


Wilbur Hubbard

I know you're better than that, Wilbur.

Don't prove me wrong :{))

On Sunday, September 9, 2012 6:03:10 PM UTC-4, Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Flying Pig" wrote in message news:k2iqko$1dh$1@dont-

[trim]





So, reading the followups, I see I wasn't adequately complete in my

descriptions...



This is a 4" coupling and transmission flange.



1) I left the bolts loose.



Got it!

Apparently not, because then you say...




2) I rotated the entire assembly 90° at a time, pulling the coupler to the

tranny flange as tightly as possible after each rotation, inserting (failing

at the end) the feeler gauge around the entire face (which, since the tranny

plate is a butterfly, amounted to really only about 215° or so out of

360°).



Got it! But how dumb is it to tighten down the bolts all the way and then

attempt to insert a feeler gauge? Duh. There is enough power in a tightened

down set of bolts to draw together flanges that ARE NOT PARALLEL. Can't you

see this simple reality, Skippy?

Thus.

The nuts, in the entire alignment process, were never even on, let alone tightened, on the bolts. However, I exert a fair amount of pressure in pulling the shaft/coupling to the tranny, and it's solidly mated (well, not so much the tranny plate wouldn't move easily on each of the 4 instances I checked for each position, as well).

Thus, the bolts were mere place holders for the tranny plate to not move as I rotated the unit (tranny and coupling, together) for each round of gauging.

In fact, the bolts are STILL in without nuts, because I'll not only let it settle, I'll do the installation of the packing gland, adjusting slightly for the shaft's own weight, confirming that the bronze doesn't touch the shaft anywhere before putting on the packing nut, before checking the alignment, yet again. This time, if I get no opening in my 4 measurements, I'll not bother with rotating the tranny plate and doing it 4 times over.

However, it may well have shifted sufficiently, including my allowance for the shaft weight being supported in the approximate center by the packing gland, by that time that I'll have to do it all again. In which case, see the preceding, which will be enhanced by all the contortions to do the fiddly adjustments. However, I was VERY pleased to see that all is sufficiently loose that it's no longer a wrestling match to make my adjustments...

L8R, y'all

Skip, off-center and off-line discussion from Wilbur redacted, as my coupling has a nipple centering it on the tranny for off-center, and the rest should be obvious to everyone else :{))

"Bruce" wrote in message
...

[trim]


Hey STUPID! Read the message before you set out to amaze us with your
knowledge (or lack thereof). The O.P. stated, "... but not yet
tightened, as we've not yet aligned the engine."

Read it again, "WE'VE NOT YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE".

Duh, aligning the engine is a necessary part of the process. Because Skippy
has yet to do so does not mean that in order to align engine with propeller
shaft that he will never be doing so. He has even described how difficult the
engine bed alignment bolts were to reach and how he didn't have a wrench that
fits well. That means Skippy is 'in the process' of aligning the engine in
order to align the two shafts.

Got it yet? HE HASN'T YET ALIGNED THE ENGINE, you ignorant fool.

So you must be thinking that Skippy intends to never align the engine with the
propeller shaft so both shafts will be on the same centerline when looked at
both horizontally and vertically? How droll!

Question. Does sweeping the floor and emptying the trash can
constitute "help build"?

Yes, it does. Irwin hired several women whose job it was to clean up the
interior and exterior of the yachts while they were being built. The
carpenters, for example, would never DREAM of cleaning up their sawdust.

But, I was not a janitor. Now it is my turn to ask you, "CAN YOU READ?" as I
plainly stated I worked as an MEP. This means I installed systems that
included Mechanical (such as Yanmar engines) and air conditioners, sinks etc.,
Electrical, such as wiring, lighting, electric pumps, generators, distribution
panels, etc.) and Plumbing such as pressure water systems, waste systems, fuel
systems, etc.

Of course these things you never do sitting for 25 years at the Bangkok dock.
LOL!


Wilbur Hubbard