On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.

Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said?

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 13 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.

Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said?

Cheers,

Bruce

I think he thought they might be too flat.
This is not a common boat.

Anyway, things went better today.
I had a conflict between the main halyard and topping lift that
wasn't letting the main all the way up yesterday. In an effort
to get going I didn't notice it.

LOTS better today, but the few times I tried to pinch way up
all we did was luff.

Nice light air drive, though.

Dorothy is driving. On instruments!
It's 103 today and the sun was fierce.
So the shade is up even if it means she can't see up.
I think she did really well though, considering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBYPMJbul4

I did try to pinch up way high once. But all that happened was a
big luff. I can't hold 30 degrees off. Probably not even 35.
40 - maybe...

A bit of history on this...
This is a replacement main sail by the same loft.
It was made to factory specs and didn't fit all that well.
A bit short of hoist and long on the foot.
(even though I measured the rig for them)
So it looked like the red haired step kid in high water pants.

In spite of all that, it was the best shaped sail I've ever had!
And it could hold together at 30 off.
I didn't have the gps tracking that day.
(18 knots wind and a lot of meat on the rail!)
So I don't know how much leeway she made that close.
Probably horrendous...
But she WAS still pulling and making 2 knots.

A second problem came clearer today.
it looks like the shelf is mis-formed a bit.
Might that be because the tack is sliding aft a bit?
When I pulled it forward it did look better.

Last few pics - we do have the spec 2" of mast bend.

And the sail does look good at 45 degrees.

So how bad can it be???


The clew ring on the jib is bigger.
Bigger enough that he shackle would not go on.
I made a soft shackle for it yesterday, but she spit it out after
a couple of tacks. Today I lengthened the shackle and fed it back on itself.
It held even through a bit of flogging when the sheet grabbed.
I think it's ok now.

Like Wilbur said, the jib tamed the main tells.
Just like it was supposed to...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:43:46 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 13 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.

Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said?

Cheers,

Bruce

I think he thought they might be too flat.
This is not a common boat.

Anyway, things went better today.
I had a conflict between the main halyard and topping lift that
wasn't letting the main all the way up yesterday. In an effort
to get going I didn't notice it.

LOTS better today, but the few times I tried to pinch way up
all we did was luff.

Nice light air drive, though.

Dorothy is driving. On instruments!
It's 103 today and the sun was fierce.
So the shade is up even if it means she can't see up.
I think she did really well though, considering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBYPMJbul4

I did try to pinch up way high once. But all that happened was a
big luff. I can't hold 30 degrees off. Probably not even 35.
40 - maybe...

A bit of history on this...
This is a replacement main sail by the same loft.
It was made to factory specs and didn't fit all that well.
A bit short of hoist and long on the foot.
(even though I measured the rig for them)
So it looked like the red haired step kid in high water pants.

In spite of all that, it was the best shaped sail I've ever had!
And it could hold together at 30 off.
I didn't have the gps tracking that day.
(18 knots wind and a lot of meat on the rail!)
So I don't know how much leeway she made that close.
Probably horrendous...
But she WAS still pulling and making 2 knots.

A second problem came clearer today.
it looks like the shelf is mis-formed a bit.
Might that be because the tack is sliding aft a bit?
When I pulled it forward it did look better.

Last few pics - we do have the spec 2" of mast bend.

And the sail does look good at 45 degrees.

So how bad can it be???


The clew ring on the jib is bigger.
Bigger enough that he shackle would not go on.
I made a soft shackle for it yesterday, but she spit it out after
a couple of tacks. Today I lengthened the shackle and fed it back on itself.
It held even through a bit of flogging when the sheet grabbed.
I think it's ok now.

Like Wilbur said, the jib tamed the main tells.
Just like it was supposed to...

True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no
jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles?
In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in
which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension.

Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to
the clew with knots :-)

As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy
to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the
edges is a pretty painless job.

In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot
looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you
had the outhaul slacked off.

Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some
kind of old retired guy.

By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to
build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the
Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead
now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his
web site http://www.robbwhite.com/

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce wrote:

True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no
jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles?
In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in
which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension.

Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to
the clew with knots :-)

As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy
to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the
edges is a pretty painless job.

In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot
looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you
had the outhaul slacked off.

Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some
kind of old retired guy.

By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to
build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the
Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead
now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his
web site http://www.robbwhite.com/

Cheers,

Bruce

Aris (the fellow who owns Mariner Sails) said it was easy to change one side
or the other, but not both at the same time. So he just cut a new sail.


Thanks, Bruce. We'll keep working at it and get it figured out.

That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!



Dorthy smiled and said to tell you that I'm not all THAT old. 61 now
(She is considerably younger)
But I don't recognize the old man in the mirror any more...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the
tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the
mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs.
This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on
the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack
cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom
slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from
clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all
the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the
outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear
to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot
length between flat sail and full sail.


Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it
holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack
of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the
mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed
by the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is
bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no
wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several
folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about
six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail
MUST be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not
suitable because it doesn't stretch enough.



And another thing yet. Before you put the sail cover on make sure you relax
the outhaul all the way so the sail foot doesn't become permanently
stretched.

On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.


Willie, Wrong again.

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.

Cheers,

Bruce

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 10:57:34 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Bruce wrote:

True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no
jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles?
In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in
which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension.

Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to
the clew with knots :-)

As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy
to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the
edges is a pretty painless job.

In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot
looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you
had the outhaul slacked off.

Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some
kind of old retired guy.

By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to
build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the
Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead
now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his
web site http://www.robbwhite.com/

Cheers,

Bruce

Aris (the fellow who owns Mariner Sails) said it was easy to change one side
or the other, but not both at the same time. So he just cut a new sail.

That is true in one sense. As the sail isn't flat measuring the curve
of the leech and luff is a bit iffy. Usually you stretch the side you
are changing so as to lay as flat as possible and then mark and cut
it. So I agree with the sail maker (lucky that :-). I was actually
thinking of the sewing rather then the measuring, marking and cutting.


Thanks, Bruce. We'll keep working at it and get it figured out.

That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!

Dorthy smiled and said to tell you that I'm not all THAT old. 61 now
(She is considerably younger)
But I don't recognize the old man in the mirror any more...

Well, she would, wouldn't she :-?

Cheers,

Bruce