And I don't like that it has kept us from starting the fairing process,
having nearly finished (couple of significant-depth areas to add to) not
only filling but sanding our other repairs.

We MAY get out of the yard before September!

Actually, we would be stunned if it took that long. The adding of
fiberglass, layer by layer, in itsy-bitsy pieces, is intensely
time-consuming; what's left, not so much, though we have yet to experience
the joy of long-board sanding, which may revise our thinking of how long it
will take to commence with the simple laying on of layers of stuff with
rollers (many coats, but not particularly time consuming)...

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
And I don't like that it has kept us from starting the fairing process,
having nearly finished (couple of significant-depth areas to add to) not
only filling but sanding our other repairs.

We MAY get out of the yard before September!

Actually, we would be stunned if it took that long. The adding of
fiberglass, layer by layer, in itsy-bitsy pieces, is intensely
time-consuming; what's left, not so much, though we have yet to experience
the joy of long-board sanding, which may revise our thinking of how long
it will take to commence with the simple laying on of layers of stuff with
rollers (many coats, but not particularly time consuming)...


Skippy, you may have dallied too long on the hard. Rainy season has finally
started and where you are you can now expect some rain, often heavy rain,
just about every afternoon.

What kind of resin are you using for the patches? I hope Epoxy resin as
polyester resin is an open invitation to more blisters. But, you'd better
mix it in an air-conditioned room. Why?

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc

Can you say hygroscopic. IOW if you mix it in a humid atmosphere you will be
adding unwanted moisture to your laminate the result of which will be more
blisters.


Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...


Skippy, you may have dallied too long on the hard. Rainy season has
finally started and where you are you can now expect some rain, often
heavy rain, just about every afternoon.

What kind of resin are you using for the patches? I hope Epoxy resin as
polyester resin is an open invitation to more blisters. But, you'd better
mix it in an air-conditioned room. Why?

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc

Can you say hygroscopic. IOW if you mix it in a humid atmosphere you will
be adding unwanted moisture to your laminate the result of which will be
more blisters.


Wilbur Hubbard



Hi, Wilbur (I'm using this character name as it's the one which addressed
me, but now that you've called yourself out recently, even though I knew it
before, it lets me know the intellect and temperament behind the post),

We are using West System epoxy for all the fiberglass work. It's not the
Dow product you referred me to, and has some significant differences,
including shelf life, among others. Polyester is a monomer and only
marginally suited to layup as relates to water prevention; vinylester, being
a polymer and crosslinked as well as, therefore, being much more water
resistant, being much better and not much more bother to work with - but
they didn't know about that in the time that my boat was built. Epoxy (also
a polymer) is the worst to work with, but superior to vinylester for
waterproof characteristics, but we had no layup to do - just little patches.
In the couple of places where we needed buildup, it was 1/4" strand chop,
with a bit of 703 (I think that's the number) West glass thickener to the
degree needed to hold it in place in some volume (a section of the stern of
the keel, e.g., was about an inch we wanted to fill-and-build due to many
prior sandings having taken off the "wrapper of glass on that edge, along
with a slight blister-chase for a 2" length section on the starboard side).
All the filled areas (trailing edges as above) as well as the bottom and
front of the keel will get a couple of layers of 1708 plus a layer of 3/4oz
mat to build it back up to original. The area of the bottom of the keel
which dug a 2-foot hole in the limestone shelf during our wreck will get a
couple more layers of mat, as well, mostly for symmetry, as it's literally
rock solid (the lead ingots, shaped to the interior, were surrounded by an
epoxy/marble-dust slurry prior to closing the keel cavity, thus putting
marble/epoxy directly under the fiberglass and over the lead).

In any event, it's essentially finished, other than just a couple of places
we want to add some more.

Following that will be AdTech fairing compound, which is also 100% epoxy,
but particularly tolerant of many lousy conditions, being milspec.

Sanded while green (anything between about 4 and 24 hours from application),
it's a piece of cake, if laborious due to the square footage we'll be
sanding. After that (which likely will leave a significant skim layer on
top of the non-repair areas, anyway/also), we'll be laying on 30 or more
mils of epoxy barrier coat, after which we'll do the bottom paint. I really
doubt that, absent a fairly significant ding, any water will be able to find
its way to the underlying polyester layup - and, as we've exposed and
removed all that was readily available, it would be an incredible game of
chance for that ding to find someplace which hadn't already been addressed
or voided of WSMs.

After all this time since the steam pressure washing, we've not had the
first hint of additional WSM exudation so, while there may well be areas we
didn't find which are not completely laminated, buried deep somewhere in the
hull, I doubt very seriously we'll have any blistering in the future.

Indeed, we had none when we hauled here. It wasn't until our sander guy
took off not only all the bottom paint, but the barrier coat and a fair
amount of fiberglass, that we saw our small weep points. Chasing them with
the grinder, followed by the keep-it-soaked-under-pressure-washing (not
nearly the velocity, volume or temperature of the steam guy, but it
obviously helped), as proven during the steam cleaning, did the trick for
any which was available.

As to the rainy season, ya, we know. Fortunately, we should be able to get
a great deal done - apply fairing in the AM, wet sand in the PM :{))

Thanks for thinking of us...

L8R

Skip and Lydia


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...


Skippy, you may have dallied too long on the hard. Rainy season has
finally started and where you are you can now expect some rain, often
heavy rain, just about every afternoon.

What kind of resin are you using for the patches? I hope Epoxy resin as
polyester resin is an open invitation to more blisters. But, you'd better
mix it in an air-conditioned room. Why?

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc

Can you say hygroscopic. IOW if you mix it in a humid atmosphere you will
be adding unwanted moisture to your laminate the result of which will be
more blisters.


Wilbur Hubbard



Hi, Wilbur (I'm using this character name as it's the one which addressed
me, but now that you've called yourself out recently, even though I knew
it before, it lets me know the intellect and temperament behind the post),

We are using West System epoxy for all the fiberglass work. It's not the
Dow product you referred me to, and has some significant differences,
including shelf life, among others. Polyester is a monomer and only
marginally suited to layup as relates to water prevention; vinylester,
being a polymer and crosslinked as well as, therefore, being much more
water resistant, being much better and not much more bother to work with -
but they didn't know about that in the time that my boat was built. Epoxy
(also a polymer) is the worst to work with, but superior to vinylester for
waterproof characteristics, but we had no layup to do - just little
patches. In the couple of places where we needed buildup, it was 1/4"
strand chop, with a bit of 703 (I think that's the number) West glass
thickener to the degree needed to hold it in place in some volume (a
section of the stern of the keel, e.g., was about an inch we wanted to
fill-and-build due to many prior sandings having taken off the "wrapper of
glass on that edge, along with a slight blister-chase for a 2" length
section on the starboard side). All the filled areas (trailing edges as
above) as well as the bottom and front of the keel will get a couple of
layers of 1708 plus a layer of 3/4oz mat to build it back up to original.
The area of the bottom of the keel which dug a 2-foot hole in the
limestone shelf during our wreck will get a couple more layers of mat, as
well, mostly for symmetry, as it's literally rock solid (the lead ingots,
shaped to the interior, were surrounded by an epoxy/marble-dust slurry
prior to closing the keel cavity, thus putting marble/epoxy directly under
the fiberglass and over the lead).

In any event, it's essentially finished, other than just a couple of
places we want to add some more.

Following that will be AdTech fairing compound, which is also 100% epoxy,
but particularly tolerant of many lousy conditions, being milspec.

Sanded while green (anything between about 4 and 24 hours from
application), it's a piece of cake, if laborious due to the square footage
we'll be sanding. After that (which likely will leave a significant skim
layer on top of the non-repair areas, anyway/also), we'll be laying on 30
or more mils of epoxy barrier coat, after which we'll do the bottom paint.
I really doubt that, absent a fairly significant ding, any water will be
able to find its way to the underlying polyester layup - and, as we've
exposed and removed all that was readily available, it would be an
incredible game of chance for that ding to find someplace which hadn't
already been addressed or voided of WSMs.

After all this time since the steam pressure washing, we've not had the
first hint of additional WSM exudation so, while there may well be areas
we didn't find which are not completely laminated, buried deep somewhere
in the hull, I doubt very seriously we'll have any blistering in the
future.

Indeed, we had none when we hauled here. It wasn't until our sander guy
took off not only all the bottom paint, but the barrier coat and a fair
amount of fiberglass, that we saw our small weep points. Chasing them
with the grinder, followed by the keep-it-soaked-under-pressure-washing
(not nearly the velocity, volume or temperature of the steam guy, but it
obviously helped), as proven during the steam cleaning, did the trick for
any which was available.

As to the rainy season, ya, we know. Fortunately, we should be able to
get a great deal done - apply fairing in the AM, wet sand in the PM :{))

Thanks for thinking of us...



Skippy,

Thanks for the information. In spite of my usual bluff and bluster and
sarcasm I do wish you guys the best of luck with your repairs and refit.
What you've done with the bottom certainly can't HURT. I just hope it
rewards you with diminished future blisters.

You are one of the few people capable of not taking too seriously a bunch of
crap directed your way. To me that says 'intelligence'. It also says 'sense
of humor' as well as 'self-confidence'. Would that more here shared those
wonderful and necessary attributes.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:59:15 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

The adding of
fiberglass, layer by layer, in itsy-bitsy pieces, is intensely
time-consuming; what's left, not so much, though we have yet to experience
the joy of long-board sanding, which may revise our thinking of how long it
will take

Long board sanding on a big boat like yours is the devil's work,
especially during a Florida summer. Do you remember Glenn Ashmore?
He spent over 10 years building his own 45 footer from the keel up and
documenting the process and progress on the internet. He said that
fairing/long boarding the hull was the worst part of the job and he
had all winter to do it in Georgia. He ended up inventing a special
tool based on an old belt sander and also used something called an
"air file" used in auto body shops.

http://www.rutuonline.com/html/long_boards.html

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:25:35 -0400, Wayne B
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:59:15 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

The adding of
fiberglass, layer by layer, in itsy-bitsy pieces, is intensely
time-consuming; what's left, not so much, though we have yet to experience
the joy of long-board sanding, which may revise our thinking of how long it
will take

Long board sanding on a big boat like yours is the devil's work,
especially during a Florida summer. Do you remember Glenn Ashmore?
He spent over 10 years building his own 45 footer from the keel up and
documenting the process and progress on the internet. He said that
fairing/long boarding the hull was the worst part of the job and he
had all winter to do it in Georgia. He ended up inventing a special
tool based on an old belt sander and also used something called an
"air file" used in auto body shops.

http://www.rutuonline.com/html/long_boards.html

You can buy powered long board sanders these days :-)

Cheers,

Bruce

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...

Skippy,

Thanks for the information. In spite of my usual bluff and bluster and
sarcasm I do wish you guys the best of luck with your repairs and refit.
What you've done with the bottom certainly can't HURT. I just hope it
rewards you with diminished future blisters.

You are one of the few people capable of not taking too seriously a bunch
of crap directed your way. To me that says 'intelligence'. It also says
'sense of humor' as well as 'self-confidence'. Would that more here
shared those wonderful and necessary attributes.


Wilbur Hubbard




Heh. In one of Bob's long-ago blasts, I turnethed away wrath, which
prompted a "gentleman of the year" award from him.

Life's entirely too short to get riled up - sticks and stones, etc. - and,
ever since, early on in my career, I had a "radical internal and external
hemorrhoidectomy" (TMI, I know, but that's the medical description of what
happened), I resolved to not let stress get to me, nor - and most
importantly WRT the current discussion - get fussed about something which
couldn't kill me.

Makes for an extremely long fuse, assisted by all those accolade-ish labels
you've attached which are correct.

You've seen, many times in the past, your satires appreciated, by me :{))

So, today we're up early, the better to apply the last bits of glass and hit
the startup phases of fairing, which will have us hit the very shallow
(nothing approaching 1/8" remains) holes, as well as those glass-repaired,
individually and then sand them down, before the wide-swath application
followed by long-boarding, which should also do a number on the prior
irregularities in hull shape.

As to the long-board fairing process, we'll be applying ~18" vertical
layers, interspersed with 18" blanks. Those blanks, when the applied areas
get "green," will form the riding surface for the ends of the LB. After
sanding the applied areas, we'll do the interiors and the sanded areas will
be the riding areas.

Following all that will be Dichomat, a stain, essentially, which, when
sanded, will reveal the low spots, which we'll spot and fair again, followed
by another LB over those. Repeat, rinse, until there aren't any, and we'll
start with the NLT 30 mils barrier coat.

Reality has it that, most likely, that will be gilding the lily, as all this
wide-knife application, unless we're rigorous about sanding down to the bare
fiberglass, will put a significant (in mils) epoxy layer on the entire
hull - but we're going to barrier coat, anyway :{))

The difference in the appearance of the starboard hull, which has been
glass-faired, is stunning. I can't wait for the patching fairing results,
which should be orders of magnitude better, even. I'll have pix of the
process later, in the currently-without-thumbnail part of the refit section
in my gallery (link below).

Long job, but it sure is rewarding to me, the guy with infinite patience -
Lydia, the "Lord give me patience, and I want it RIGHT NOW" lady, not so
much, but even she has enthused over the view.

So, while the patches we'll put on the starboard are curing, we'll do the
last of the layup on the remaining single area on the port.

Marvelous to see the end in sight!

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

On 6/28/11 8:48 AM, Flying Pig wrote:
"Wilbur wrote in message
news.com...

Skippy,

Thanks for the information. In spite of my usual bluff and bluster and
sarcasm I do wish you guys the best of luck with your repairs and refit.
What you've done with the bottom certainly can't HURT. I just hope it
rewards you with diminished future blisters.

You are one of the few people capable of not taking too seriously a bunch
of crap directed your way. To me that says 'intelligence'. It also says
'sense of humor' as well as 'self-confidence'. Would that more here
shared those wonderful and necessary attributes.


Wilbur Hubbard




Heh. In one of Bob's long-ago blasts, I turnethed away wrath, which
prompted a "gentleman of the year" award from him.

Life's entirely too short to get riled up - sticks and stones, etc. - and,
ever since, early on in my career, I had a "radical internal and external
hemorrhoidectomy" (TMI, I know, but that's the medical description of what
happened), I resolved to not let stress get to me, nor - and most
importantly WRT the current discussion - get fussed about something which
couldn't kill me.

Makes for an extremely long fuse, assisted by all those accolade-ish labels
you've attached which are correct.

You've seen, many times in the past, your satires appreciated, by me :{))

So, today we're up early, the better to apply the last bits of glass and hit
the startup phases of fairing, which will have us hit the very shallow
(nothing approaching 1/8" remains) holes, as well as those glass-repaired,
individually and then sand them down, before the wide-swath application
followed by long-boarding, which should also do a number on the prior
irregularities in hull shape.

As to the long-board fairing process, we'll be applying ~18" vertical
layers, interspersed with 18" blanks. Those blanks, when the applied areas
get "green," will form the riding surface for the ends of the LB. After
sanding the applied areas, we'll do the interiors and the sanded areas will
be the riding areas.

Following all that will be Dichomat, a stain, essentially, which, when
sanded, will reveal the low spots, which we'll spot and fair again, followed
by another LB over those. Repeat, rinse, until there aren't any, and we'll
start with the NLT 30 mils barrier coat.

Reality has it that, most likely, that will be gilding the lily, as all this
wide-knife application, unless we're rigorous about sanding down to the bare
fiberglass, will put a significant (in mils) epoxy layer on the entire
hull - but we're going to barrier coat, anyway :{))

The difference in the appearance of the starboard hull, which has been
glass-faired, is stunning. I can't wait for the patching fairing results,
which should be orders of magnitude better, even. I'll have pix of the
process later, in the currently-without-thumbnail part of the refit section
in my gallery (link below).

Long job, but it sure is rewarding to me, the guy with infinite patience -
Lydia, the "Lord give me patience, and I want it RIGHT NOW" lady, not so
much, but even she has enthused over the view.

So, while the patches we'll put on the starboard are curing, we'll do the
last of the layup on the remaining single area on the port.

Marvelous to see the end in sight!

L8R

Skip


You are a man of unlimited patience, so far as I can tell. Hope your
latest boat project...the "reskinning," as it were, turns out the right
way for you.

--
Want to discuss recreational boating and fishing in a forum where
personal insults are not allowed?

http://groups.google.com/group/rec-boating-fishing

"Wayne B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:59:15 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

The adding of
fiberglass, layer by layer, in itsy-bitsy pieces, is intensely
time-consuming; what's left, not so much, though we have yet to experience
the joy of long-board sanding, which may revise our thinking of how long
it
will take

Long board sanding on a big boat like yours is the devil's work,
especially during a Florida summer. Do you remember Glenn Ashmore?
He spent over 10 years building his own 45 footer from the keel up and
documenting the process and progress on the internet. He said that
fairing/long boarding the hull was the worst part of the job and he
had all winter to do it in Georgia. He ended up inventing a special
tool based on an old belt sander and also used something called an
"air file" used in auto body shops.

http://www.rutuonline.com/html/long_boards.html




I remember Glenn well. He visited Flying Pig in the early days, removing
our AC and LectraSans units, just so he could actually see a project happen
from start to finish.

He built a quadrafilar helical antenna and supplied me with the
crystal-tuned receiver that we use to fetch real-time NOAA weather satellite
views in return for one of each; Morgan owners took the others after he'd
reconditioned them as part of the deal.

However, thanks for reminding me of him and that project. I'll drop him a
line...

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Since it's raining (and looks like it will, all week), I'm tool chasing...

I'mstarting with custom tools for fairing out the hull we've worked on so
hard to get it ready for this step (thanks, Wayne, for the reminder about
Glenn, a great resource in so many ways I can't count them).

Next up is a large-scale rotary sander/buffer, to finish out the job left
undone on the starboard topsides in a kerfuffle with a contractor a while
ago.

Of course, all this looking around is stirring the juices, and I have to put
my hands over my eyes or I'll buy something I wish I had but either or both
of can't afford, or can't store.

I've already been rethinking some of the tools I brought with me 4 years
ago, but have yet to use, even in the refit which took place before we ever
left. Lydia will be thrilled - I'll have more storage in the engine room for
spares...


L8R

Skip
--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain