"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:40:45 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news:w8qdna8mV7lneSzQnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink. com...
It's NOT WATER!

It may have been water at one time, but it's not anymore.

That's the point everybody has been trying to make here.

Since it's not water, it doesn't BEHAVE like water...




It is chemical IN SOLUTION WITH water. What goes into solution can
evaporate
out of solution. What don't you and the other morons understand about
something this simple?

Wilbur Hubbard



Willie-boy, you are getting all confused. You are talking about a
mechanical mixture and it is a chemical mixture and a chemical
mixture, or solution, can't be separated.



Wrong! The darkish osmotic solution is no different in principle than sea
water which is also a solution. The water can be diffused and evaporated out
of salt water leaving various salts in crystal form along with trace
metallic elements, organics, etc.

In the same way, the water can be diffused and evaporated out of the
darkish, osmotic liquid that contains all sorts of chemicals like styrene,
MEKP, polyester resin, etc. Even that so-called authoritative article you
morons consider your Bible demonstrates this to be fact in that the droplets
of thinner chemical/water solution on the plate get thicker as they dry and
as the atmosphere become more humid they then absorb some water and get
thinner again. In the sun and a less humid atmosphere they get thicker and
harder. Duh! Open your mind, or the mush that passes for it!

You can't have it both ways, Lubber! My argument that the spraying the hull
with water is mostly ineffective in ridding the laminate of the trapped
moisture in the osmotic solution stands based upon the facts as stated. The
sprayed water simply cannot wash out the osmotic solution trapped inside the
laminate raising blisters (with the exception of areas that are cracked or
holed and we all know that is NOT everywhere). The only way to accomplish
this washing away by spraying would be to drill millions of small holes into
the laminate in the entire bottom so the trapped osmotic solution would have
egress so the sprayed water could then was it away.

As it stands, from a realistic physical standpoint, water sprayed on the
outside of the hull has as much chance of washing out the trapped osmotic
solution as your taking a shower and expecting it wash out your
blood/alcohol solution. LOL!

Wilbur Hubbard

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:28:17 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

It's NOT WATER!

It may have been water at one time, but it's not anymore.

That's the point everybody has been trying to make here.

Since it's not water, it doesn't BEHAVE like water...


"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."


The part of the solution that is water acts exactly like water as it has no
other choice but to act like water because it IS water. Dirty water is water
nonetheless. Duh! You people are dullards and no mistake about it . . . You
seem to think that a water/chemical solution is an alloy or something. Or
perhaps you think it like concrete where the water is involved in a chemical
reaction that locks it up and all the evaporation in the world won't
retrieve it. Go back to school and take chemistry again. Sorry but that pig
won't fly. Concrete is not a solution nor is an alloy of metal like
stainless steel.

Wilbur Hubbard

Bruce in Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:01:44 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

" Sir Gregory Hall, Esq." wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:42:02 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

you and the other fools can't refute my arguments.
David Pascoe is no fool and he has dealing with these issues
professionally for many years. Why not go argue with him?


If he is supporting this hosing down fraud then he's too stupid for me to
waste my valuable time on.

--
Gregory Hall


Right on, Gregory! I agree 100%

Wilbur Hubbard

Self gratification I believe it is called.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


I was going to ask if anyone would vouch for G Hall,
but decided I really didn't care enough to bother.

But what the heck.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:55:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:44:08 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
...
I told you I wasn't going to be pedantic - and gave you a clue, very
useful in your clueless case. Yet you refused to follow it.

So, here's just one link among many:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/my_wet_hull.htm

I await your erudition as to why what I'm going to do is worse than
leaving it ashore in an oven for a couple of years...


Comeuppance my aching arse! LOL.

That article says NOTHING about how this thick, sticky substance is
supposed
to rise to the outside surface of the laminate all by it's little ole
self.
One must wonder why it says nothing about that? Well, perhaps because it
defeats the whole stupid theory about hosing down the outside surface of
the
laminate which does nothing more than closing the barn door after the
livestock has escaped.

The fact is that the fluid that pops up the blisters has increased in
volume
due to osmosis. This increase in volume because of increased water content
is what creates the pressure that creates the blisters. The very same
water
that got into the laminate over the years through osmotic action will get
out of the laminate via diffusion and evaporation over the months provided
there is a low enough humidity environment outside the stored hull. If you
could store the hull in low earth orbit, for example it would take all of
a
week to completely dry it of moisture as the moisture would actually
'boil'
out due not only to humidity differences but to pressure differences.
Storing the boat in Florida where the relative humidity hovers around
70-100% would make it a very long and probably useless process. Someplace
near or above the arctic circle at a high altitude would be ten times more
effective due to low humidity around 10%.

But, finding such a vacuum chamber as outer space on earth would be
cost-prohibitive so the only alternative is a very low humidity
environment
(cold baby cold like in the arctic) so the relative low humidity contained
in the air serves to hasten the drying process. The sticky or hard
substance
that remains in the laminate after the water that got there via osmosis
diffuses away is of no or little consequence once the barrier coat is put
on
as an effective barrier coat stops osmosis so it will remain a hard or
stick
substance that will no longer absorb water to pop up more blisters.

The dumb method of hosing the surface down with water might be effective
if
one could drill millions of tiny holes into the laminate to release all
the
oozing sticky chemicals but just hosing down the outside of the hull with
no
way for the water to penetrate relies solely on existing holes and oozing
chemicals. Sorry, but this is not effective in a total drying of the hull.

If you want to patent an effective blister elimination method, Skippy, and
get rich then patent a system and a tool that penetrates the entire bottom
to about the middle of the laminate with millions of tiny holes then hose
it
down frequently with water to wash off the oozing chemicals then dip the
hull in an acetone bath several times and let it bleed the chemicals again
then dip the hull in some water-impermeable resin so it wicks into the
millions of holes and solidifies the hull then barrier coat it and you
would
have an effective, relatively quick but permanent repair.

The method you are enamored of now is a half-assed method at best. Pie in
the sky.

Wilbur Hubbard

Ah Willie-boy, you just keep going on and on amazing us with your
brilliance and great knowledge... Unfortunately all of it is wrong.

Perhaps because you are getting on in years you are simply parroting
information which was thought to have been be correct years ago has
been totally superceded by better and more accurate information over
the now.

But, exactly like the people who insisted for centuries that because
the sun rose in the east and set in the west that it was obvious that
the sun orbited the earth you are totally wrong. I can hear their
arguments even now - "It stands to reason"... :"Everybody knows"....
"You don't understand physics"... all the old faithful arguments used
by ignorant people over the years. You see Willie-boy you are neither
intelligent nor original. Just ignorant.


Too bad straw men don't fly. LOL!

Not one attempt to address the facts pretty much proves you've been
defeated.

Wilbur Hubbard

What in the world are you talking abut? No one addressing the FACTS?
We've been trying to get you to understand the FACTS but so far it has
been a futile task, stymied by ignorance on your part.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:05:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:28:17 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

It's NOT WATER!

It may have been water at one time, but it's not anymore.

That's the point everybody has been trying to make here.

Since it's not water, it doesn't BEHAVE like water...


"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."


The part of the solution that is water acts exactly like water as it has no
other choice but to act like water because it IS water. Dirty water is water
nonetheless. Duh! You people are dullards and no mistake about it . . . You
seem to think that a water/chemical solution is an alloy or something. Or
perhaps you think it like concrete where the water is involved in a chemical
reaction that locks it up and all the evaporation in the world won't
retrieve it. Go back to school and take chemistry again. Sorry but that pig
won't fly. Concrete is not a solution nor is an alloy of metal like
stainless steel.

Wilbur Hubbard

Good Lord, what are you rabbeting on about? Concrete? Alloy? Water?
Who is talking about water or concrete or alloys of metal?

It really is true that stupid man's interpretation of what an
intelligent person says is never accurate because he unconsciously
translates what he hears into something he can understand.

And, you just proved it. Unless of course the subject has been changed
to ferro-concrete boats or alloy metal boats....
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:58:50 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:40:45 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
news:w8qdna8mV7lneSzQnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@earthlink .com...
It's NOT WATER!

It may have been water at one time, but it's not anymore.

That's the point everybody has been trying to make here.

Since it's not water, it doesn't BEHAVE like water...




It is chemical IN SOLUTION WITH water. What goes into solution can
evaporate
out of solution. What don't you and the other morons understand about
something this simple?

Wilbur Hubbard



Willie-boy, you are getting all confused. You are talking about a
mechanical mixture and it is a chemical mixture and a chemical
mixture, or solution, can't be separated.



Wrong! The darkish osmotic solution is no different in principle than sea
water which is also a solution. The water can be diffused and evaporated out
of salt water leaving various salts in crystal form along with trace
metallic elements, organics, etc.

In the same way, the water can be diffused and evaporated out of the
darkish, osmotic liquid that contains all sorts of chemicals like styrene,
MEKP, polyester resin, etc. Even that so-called authoritative article you
morons consider your Bible demonstrates this to be fact in that the droplets
of thinner chemical/water solution on the plate get thicker as they dry and
as the atmosphere become more humid they then absorb some water and get
thinner again. In the sun and a less humid atmosphere they get thicker and
harder. Duh! Open your mind, or the mush that passes for it!

You can't have it both ways, Lubber! My argument that the spraying the hull
with water is mostly ineffective in ridding the laminate of the trapped
moisture in the osmotic solution stands based upon the facts as stated. The
sprayed water simply cannot wash out the osmotic solution trapped inside the
laminate raising blisters (with the exception of areas that are cracked or
holed and we all know that is NOT everywhere). The only way to accomplish
this washing away by spraying would be to drill millions of small holes into
the laminate in the entire bottom so the trapped osmotic solution would have
egress so the sprayed water could then was it away.

As it stands, from a realistic physical standpoint, water sprayed on the
outside of the hull has as much chance of washing out the trapped osmotic
solution as your taking a shower and expecting it wash out your
blood/alcohol solution. LOL!

Wilbur Hubbard

Willie-boy I'm sick of trying to tell the pig's ear how to be a silk
purse.

Here is three more sites that discuss osmosis in addition to the
Pascoe site I've already given you.

A study of the causes of osmosis in boats by Thomas Rockett, Ph.D. and
Vincent Rose, Ph.D., at the University of Rhode Island, and was partly
funded by the US Coastguard Service.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA206508

From the September 1999 TELLTALE Page 3:
http://nsc.ca/nsc_library/techtalk/osmosis.htm
which reports "The molecular structure of `this new mixture' changes
(thickens), making it impossible for it to permeate outward through
the gelcoat."


and Osmosis and Blistering in yacht Hulls, by
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/osmosis.htm
which says in part "The water molecules can then have a chemical
reaction with these substances, forming larger molecules of a new
chemical, often acidic - which unlike the original small water
molecules, cannot carry on passing through the GRP."


If you care to read and can understand any of this information then we
might continue the discussion of osmosis. On the other hand if you
continue to insist that your outdated (you will note that one of the
references was from 1999 which makes your information really old)
information is current then there is little sense in trying to
persuade you that the sun does not orbit the earth.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Hi, y'all,

Just a followup as we get ready to fair out the hull:

In the course of scrubbing the topsides to remove the PoliGlow (an acrylic
wet-look treatment, if you're unfamiliar with it), we have continually wet
the hull to keep the solution of acrylic and stripper from attaching to our
bare hull as we rinse each section we've scrubbed/stripped.

Every day, of course, it dries out. Every day, also, we see fewer and fewer
instances of exuding water-soluble compounds from inside the hull strata.
We're down to probably not as many as 10 which have any evidence of exiting
moisture.

Today, I went around to clean up any loose edges - any laminate areas which
provided any impediment to a fingernail run in the direction of the suspect
layers to which I'd ground back to chase the wetness or minor delamination.
In about an hour, I'd done the entire hull, without any protection, as it
was literally "turn on the grinder, turn it off, touch the area with the
slowing disk, move on to the next one" - with the wind cooperating by being
in line with the hull, and my making sure the "exhaust" of what little
fiberglass I was removing was downwind of me.

The yard had us, originally, in a spot which was downwind of the pressure
washing operation, which put all sorts of grunge on our boat. They've
offered a free consolation pressure wash; we'll do that just before we fair
the hull, which, given their 4500# unit, should assure that there are no
contaminants on the fiberglass. We'll follow that with an acetone wash for
each section as we fair it.

Our fairing will be with another mil-spec product, an all-solids (no VOCs)
epoxy fairing compound. I have a 2' wide flexible "knife" which I'll use to
conform to the hull and pull such a strip, top to bottom, after we've filled
the holes. Leaving a somewhat-less-than 2' strip in between, I'll
longboard-sand those when it's green (hard enough to sand, but not fully
cured), and then go in between with another strip, same way. Unless the
section has had more than 24 hours to cure, no other prep to scarfing
between them is needed. Those surrounding areas will give a smooth
longboard riding surface.

We have a couple of very small repairs to do which will involve fiberglass,
and a couple of others which will involve WestSystem 403 and epoxy, due to
some voids in joints in the stern part of the two-part hull construction
which we ground out. These, of course, will also be faired with the same
stuff when we've finished with it.

In the end, I'm sure the hull will be fairer than it has been since it left
the factory, and there not only will be solid epoxy in any of the voids,
there will be a slight coat of epoxy on virtually all the rest of the hull.
Because the hull will also be drier than it has any time in the last 20
years or so, between the skim of the fairing compound (above and beyond the
solid stuff in the ground-out areas), and the NLT 30 mils of mil-spec epoxy
barrier coat we'll apply, we're reasonably certain that water will not reach
any other remaining WSM (water soluble material) in the hull which hasn't
been leached out by our wash/pressure wash routine. If water can't get to
them, they can't get larger in volume, and won't push out on any envelope
(develop a blister).

After that it will be a great deal of bottom paint; given that there were no
visible blisters when we hauled (we only found any weep areas because we
removed every bit of anything on the outside of the hull), we don't expect
we'll be revisiting this again :{))

L8R

Skip, taking a break from scrubbing due to the rain which prevents letting
the stripper sit for a bit before scrubbing, a very effective process...


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

On Fri, 6 May 2011 17:00:45 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, y'all,

Just a followup as we get ready to fair out the hull:

In the course of scrubbing the topsides to remove the PoliGlow (an acrylic
wet-look treatment, if you're unfamiliar with it), we have continually wet
the hull to keep the solution of acrylic and stripper from attaching to our
bare hull as we rinse each section we've scrubbed/stripped.

Every day, of course, it dries out. Every day, also, we see fewer and fewer
instances of exuding water-soluble compounds from inside the hull strata.
We're down to probably not as many as 10 which have any evidence of exiting
moisture.

Today, I went around to clean up any loose edges - any laminate areas which
provided any impediment to a fingernail run in the direction of the suspect
layers to which I'd ground back to chase the wetness or minor delamination.
In about an hour, I'd done the entire hull, without any protection, as it
was literally "turn on the grinder, turn it off, touch the area with the
slowing disk, move on to the next one" - with the wind cooperating by being
in line with the hull, and my making sure the "exhaust" of what little
fiberglass I was removing was downwind of me.

The yard had us, originally, in a spot which was downwind of the pressure
washing operation, which put all sorts of grunge on our boat. They've
offered a free consolation pressure wash; we'll do that just before we fair
the hull, which, given their 4500# unit, should assure that there are no
contaminants on the fiberglass. We'll follow that with an acetone wash for
each section as we fair it.

Our fairing will be with another mil-spec product, an all-solids (no VOCs)
epoxy fairing compound. I have a 2' wide flexible "knife" which I'll use to
conform to the hull and pull such a strip, top to bottom, after we've filled
the holes. Leaving a somewhat-less-than 2' strip in between, I'll
longboard-sand those when it's green (hard enough to sand, but not fully
cured), and then go in between with another strip, same way. Unless the
section has had more than 24 hours to cure, no other prep to scarfing
between them is needed. Those surrounding areas will give a smooth
longboard riding surface.

We have a couple of very small repairs to do which will involve fiberglass,
and a couple of others which will involve WestSystem 403 and epoxy, due to
some voids in joints in the stern part of the two-part hull construction
which we ground out. These, of course, will also be faired with the same
stuff when we've finished with it.

In the end, I'm sure the hull will be fairer than it has been since it left
the factory, and there not only will be solid epoxy in any of the voids,
there will be a slight coat of epoxy on virtually all the rest of the hull.
Because the hull will also be drier than it has any time in the last 20
years or so, between the skim of the fairing compound (above and beyond the
solid stuff in the ground-out areas), and the NLT 30 mils of mil-spec epoxy
barrier coat we'll apply, we're reasonably certain that water will not reach
any other remaining WSM (water soluble material) in the hull which hasn't
been leached out by our wash/pressure wash routine. If water can't get to
them, they can't get larger in volume, and won't push out on any envelope
(develop a blister).

After that it will be a great deal of bottom paint; given that there were no
visible blisters when we hauled (we only found any weep areas because we
removed every bit of anything on the outside of the hull), we don't expect
we'll be revisiting this again :{))


Having done a bit of this in a past life on my old Cal-34, I can tell
you that you are in for just a bit of work. Done properly however
with everything long boarded on three different axis, it will really
come out looking great. Be sure and wet sand that bottom paint
between coats with a long rubber fairing block! I used to wet sand
the final coat, also on three axis, first with 220 and then with 400
grit. My goal was to have water hang on it in a solid unblemished
sheet for at least 5 minutes, with the boatyard perfectly reflected.
When everyone in the yard was stopping by to gawk at it, I knew it was
just about right, sort of like have an anchor that is so big that
everyone stares at it in amazement. :-)