On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:58:14 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

You can lead a horse's ass to water, but you can't make him think...


No, it's not drying. And the reason why is a very simple one. The wetness you
are attempting to dry is not water, but something else. In many cases, it can
sit there forever and never go away. You can prove this for yourself by
performing a simple test. Collect some fluid samples from blisters on any boat.
Rupture the blister with a sharp knife point, then press against it and let it
spray into an empty film canister. Then place droplets of the sample on a piece
of clean metal or glass. Take it home and put it in a cool, dry place for two weeks.

When you return to your samples you will find that it has not evaporated, but
has hardened into a droplet of near solid clear plastic with no detectable loss
in volume or size. It may remain somewhat sticky, or it may fully harden to the
touch. If you now take that sample and put it outside in very damp or humid
weather, you will find that it will soften up again. In other words, that
material is hydroscopic and will absorb water right out of the atmosphere. Now
add a drop of water to the sample. Surprise! It will dissolve the solidified
material very quickly. And if you take a moisture meter reading of the
solidified material on a piece of glass, you'll get a high reading.

What you will have just demonstrated is the reason why your hull won't dry, and
the answer on how to dry it. What is migrating out of your exposed hull laminate
is a combination of hydrolyzed polyester resin, salts and other chemicals. These
sometimes migrate to the surface where exposure to air causes the fluid to
naturally cure. But it doesn't go away. It just stays there alternately curing
and softening with the changing atmospheric conditions. On a rainy day, it will
probably become nearly fluid. After a few days of cool, dry weather it cures again.

Now that you know this gook is water soluble, you know how to get rid of it.
Yep, just take a hose and wash it away! But while the hull is wet, be sure to
give it about 30 minutes to completely dissolve.

"But won't I just be making my hull wetter by putting water on it?"

Yes, but only temporarily. _We've already discovered that the fluid weeping out
of the hull is NOT water and will NOT evaporate_. As you know, water evaporates
very quickly, and the water you use to rinse the hull down will too. Wet the
entire hull down and keep it wet for about thirty minutes. Then come back with a
hose nozzle and spray it with a bit of pressure to remove the remaining traces
since some of this stuff may take longer to dissolve.


No, no! You must be wrong.

After all Willy-boy has explained and everything he says is as though
"from God's mouth to your ear", as some would have it :-)

Isn't it?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:44:08 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
...
I told you I wasn't going to be pedantic - and gave you a clue, very
useful in your clueless case. Yet you refused to follow it.

So, here's just one link among many:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/my_wet_hull.htm

I await your erudition as to why what I'm going to do is worse than
leaving it ashore in an oven for a couple of years...


Comeuppance my aching arse! LOL.

That article says NOTHING about how this thick, sticky substance is supposed
to rise to the outside surface of the laminate all by it's little ole self.
One must wonder why it says nothing about that? Well, perhaps because it
defeats the whole stupid theory about hosing down the outside surface of the
laminate which does nothing more than closing the barn door after the
livestock has escaped.

The fact is that the fluid that pops up the blisters has increased in volume
due to osmosis. This increase in volume because of increased water content
is what creates the pressure that creates the blisters. The very same water
that got into the laminate over the years through osmotic action will get
out of the laminate via diffusion and evaporation over the months provided
there is a low enough humidity environment outside the stored hull. If you
could store the hull in low earth orbit, for example it would take all of a
week to completely dry it of moisture as the moisture would actually 'boil'
out due not only to humidity differences but to pressure differences.
Storing the boat in Florida where the relative humidity hovers around
70-100% would make it a very long and probably useless process. Someplace
near or above the arctic circle at a high altitude would be ten times more
effective due to low humidity around 10%.

But, finding such a vacuum chamber as outer space on earth would be
cost-prohibitive so the only alternative is a very low humidity environment
(cold baby cold like in the arctic) so the relative low humidity contained
in the air serves to hasten the drying process. The sticky or hard substance
that remains in the laminate after the water that got there via osmosis
diffuses away is of no or little consequence once the barrier coat is put on
as an effective barrier coat stops osmosis so it will remain a hard or stick
substance that will no longer absorb water to pop up more blisters.

The dumb method of hosing the surface down with water might be effective if
one could drill millions of tiny holes into the laminate to release all the
oozing sticky chemicals but just hosing down the outside of the hull with no
way for the water to penetrate relies solely on existing holes and oozing
chemicals. Sorry, but this is not effective in a total drying of the hull.

If you want to patent an effective blister elimination method, Skippy, and
get rich then patent a system and a tool that penetrates the entire bottom
to about the middle of the laminate with millions of tiny holes then hose it
down frequently with water to wash off the oozing chemicals then dip the
hull in an acetone bath several times and let it bleed the chemicals again
then dip the hull in some water-impermeable resin so it wicks into the
millions of holes and solidifies the hull then barrier coat it and you would
have an effective, relatively quick but permanent repair.

The method you are enamored of now is a half-assed method at best. Pie in
the sky.

Wilbur Hubbard

Ah Willie-boy, you just keep going on and on amazing us with your
brilliance and great knowledge... Unfortunately all of it is wrong.

Perhaps because you are getting on in years you are simply parroting
information which was thought to have been be correct years ago has
been totally superceded by better and more accurate information over
the now.

But, exactly like the people who insisted for centuries that because
the sun rose in the east and set in the west that it was obvious that
the sun orbited the earth you are totally wrong. I can hear their
arguments even now - "It stands to reason"... :"Everybody knows"....
"You don't understand physics"... all the old faithful arguments used
by ignorant people over the years. You see Willie-boy you are neither
intelligent nor original. Just ignorant.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:44:08 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
...
I told you I wasn't going to be pedantic - and gave you a clue, very
useful in your clueless case. Yet you refused to follow it.

So, here's just one link among many:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/my_wet_hull.htm

I await your erudition as to why what I'm going to do is worse than
leaving it ashore in an oven for a couple of years...


Comeuppance my aching arse! LOL.

That article says NOTHING about how this thick, sticky substance is
supposed
to rise to the outside surface of the laminate all by it's little ole
self.
One must wonder why it says nothing about that? Well, perhaps because it
defeats the whole stupid theory about hosing down the outside surface of
the
laminate which does nothing more than closing the barn door after the
livestock has escaped.

The fact is that the fluid that pops up the blisters has increased in
volume
due to osmosis. This increase in volume because of increased water content
is what creates the pressure that creates the blisters. The very same
water
that got into the laminate over the years through osmotic action will get
out of the laminate via diffusion and evaporation over the months provided
there is a low enough humidity environment outside the stored hull. If you
could store the hull in low earth orbit, for example it would take all of
a
week to completely dry it of moisture as the moisture would actually
'boil'
out due not only to humidity differences but to pressure differences.
Storing the boat in Florida where the relative humidity hovers around
70-100% would make it a very long and probably useless process. Someplace
near or above the arctic circle at a high altitude would be ten times more
effective due to low humidity around 10%.

But, finding such a vacuum chamber as outer space on earth would be
cost-prohibitive so the only alternative is a very low humidity
environment
(cold baby cold like in the arctic) so the relative low humidity contained
in the air serves to hasten the drying process. The sticky or hard
substance
that remains in the laminate after the water that got there via osmosis
diffuses away is of no or little consequence once the barrier coat is put
on
as an effective barrier coat stops osmosis so it will remain a hard or
stick
substance that will no longer absorb water to pop up more blisters.

The dumb method of hosing the surface down with water might be effective
if
one could drill millions of tiny holes into the laminate to release all
the
oozing sticky chemicals but just hosing down the outside of the hull with
no
way for the water to penetrate relies solely on existing holes and oozing
chemicals. Sorry, but this is not effective in a total drying of the hull.

If you want to patent an effective blister elimination method, Skippy, and
get rich then patent a system and a tool that penetrates the entire bottom
to about the middle of the laminate with millions of tiny holes then hose
it
down frequently with water to wash off the oozing chemicals then dip the
hull in an acetone bath several times and let it bleed the chemicals again
then dip the hull in some water-impermeable resin so it wicks into the
millions of holes and solidifies the hull then barrier coat it and you
would
have an effective, relatively quick but permanent repair.

The method you are enamored of now is a half-assed method at best. Pie in
the sky.

Wilbur Hubbard

Ah Willie-boy, you just keep going on and on amazing us with your
brilliance and great knowledge... Unfortunately all of it is wrong.

Perhaps because you are getting on in years you are simply parroting
information which was thought to have been be correct years ago has
been totally superceded by better and more accurate information over
the now.

But, exactly like the people who insisted for centuries that because
the sun rose in the east and set in the west that it was obvious that
the sun orbited the earth you are totally wrong. I can hear their
arguments even now - "It stands to reason"... :"Everybody knows"....
"You don't understand physics"... all the old faithful arguments used
by ignorant people over the years. You see Willie-boy you are neither
intelligent nor original. Just ignorant.


Too bad straw men don't fly. LOL!

Not one attempt to address the facts pretty much proves you've been
defeated.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:55:20 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:44:08 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
...
I told you I wasn't going to be pedantic - and gave you a clue, very
useful in your clueless case. Yet you refused to follow it.

So, here's just one link among many:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/my_wet_hull.htm

I await your erudition as to why what I'm going to do is worse than
leaving it ashore in an oven for a couple of years...


Comeuppance my aching arse! LOL.

That article says NOTHING about how this thick, sticky substance is
supposed
to rise to the outside surface of the laminate all by it's little ole
self.
One must wonder why it says nothing about that? Well, perhaps because it
defeats the whole stupid theory about hosing down the outside surface of
the
laminate which does nothing more than closing the barn door after the
livestock has escaped.

The fact is that the fluid that pops up the blisters has increased in
volume
due to osmosis. This increase in volume because of increased water content
is what creates the pressure that creates the blisters. The very same
water
that got into the laminate over the years through osmotic action will get
out of the laminate via diffusion and evaporation over the months provided
there is a low enough humidity environment outside the stored hull. If you
could store the hull in low earth orbit, for example it would take all of
a
week to completely dry it of moisture as the moisture would actually
'boil'
out due not only to humidity differences but to pressure differences.
Storing the boat in Florida where the relative humidity hovers around
70-100% would make it a very long and probably useless process. Someplace
near or above the arctic circle at a high altitude would be ten times more
effective due to low humidity around 10%.

But, finding such a vacuum chamber as outer space on earth would be
cost-prohibitive so the only alternative is a very low humidity
environment
(cold baby cold like in the arctic) so the relative low humidity contained
in the air serves to hasten the drying process. The sticky or hard
substance
that remains in the laminate after the water that got there via osmosis
diffuses away is of no or little consequence once the barrier coat is put
on
as an effective barrier coat stops osmosis so it will remain a hard or
stick
substance that will no longer absorb water to pop up more blisters.

The dumb method of hosing the surface down with water might be effective
if
one could drill millions of tiny holes into the laminate to release all
the
oozing sticky chemicals but just hosing down the outside of the hull with
no
way for the water to penetrate relies solely on existing holes and oozing
chemicals. Sorry, but this is not effective in a total drying of the hull.

If you want to patent an effective blister elimination method, Skippy, and
get rich then patent a system and a tool that penetrates the entire bottom
to about the middle of the laminate with millions of tiny holes then hose
it
down frequently with water to wash off the oozing chemicals then dip the
hull in an acetone bath several times and let it bleed the chemicals again
then dip the hull in some water-impermeable resin so it wicks into the
millions of holes and solidifies the hull then barrier coat it and you
would
have an effective, relatively quick but permanent repair.

The method you are enamored of now is a half-assed method at best. Pie in
the sky.

Wilbur Hubbard

Ah Willie-boy, you just keep going on and on amazing us with your
brilliance and great knowledge... Unfortunately all of it is wrong.

Perhaps because you are getting on in years you are simply parroting
information which was thought to have been be correct years ago has
been totally superceded by better and more accurate information over
the now.

But, exactly like the people who insisted for centuries that because
the sun rose in the east and set in the west that it was obvious that
the sun orbited the earth you are totally wrong. I can hear their
arguments even now - "It stands to reason"... :"Everybody knows"....
"You don't understand physics"... all the old faithful arguments used
by ignorant people over the years. You see Willie-boy you are neither
intelligent nor original. Just ignorant.


Too bad straw men don't fly. LOL!

Not one attempt to address the facts pretty much proves you've been
defeated.

Wilbur Hubbard

What in the world are you talking abut? No one addressing the FACTS?
We've been trying to get you to understand the FACTS but so far it has
been a futile task, stymied by ignorance on your part.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Hi, y'all,

Just a followup as we get ready to fair out the hull:

In the course of scrubbing the topsides to remove the PoliGlow (an acrylic
wet-look treatment, if you're unfamiliar with it), we have continually wet
the hull to keep the solution of acrylic and stripper from attaching to our
bare hull as we rinse each section we've scrubbed/stripped.

Every day, of course, it dries out. Every day, also, we see fewer and fewer
instances of exuding water-soluble compounds from inside the hull strata.
We're down to probably not as many as 10 which have any evidence of exiting
moisture.

Today, I went around to clean up any loose edges - any laminate areas which
provided any impediment to a fingernail run in the direction of the suspect
layers to which I'd ground back to chase the wetness or minor delamination.
In about an hour, I'd done the entire hull, without any protection, as it
was literally "turn on the grinder, turn it off, touch the area with the
slowing disk, move on to the next one" - with the wind cooperating by being
in line with the hull, and my making sure the "exhaust" of what little
fiberglass I was removing was downwind of me.

The yard had us, originally, in a spot which was downwind of the pressure
washing operation, which put all sorts of grunge on our boat. They've
offered a free consolation pressure wash; we'll do that just before we fair
the hull, which, given their 4500# unit, should assure that there are no
contaminants on the fiberglass. We'll follow that with an acetone wash for
each section as we fair it.

Our fairing will be with another mil-spec product, an all-solids (no VOCs)
epoxy fairing compound. I have a 2' wide flexible "knife" which I'll use to
conform to the hull and pull such a strip, top to bottom, after we've filled
the holes. Leaving a somewhat-less-than 2' strip in between, I'll
longboard-sand those when it's green (hard enough to sand, but not fully
cured), and then go in between with another strip, same way. Unless the
section has had more than 24 hours to cure, no other prep to scarfing
between them is needed. Those surrounding areas will give a smooth
longboard riding surface.

We have a couple of very small repairs to do which will involve fiberglass,
and a couple of others which will involve WestSystem 403 and epoxy, due to
some voids in joints in the stern part of the two-part hull construction
which we ground out. These, of course, will also be faired with the same
stuff when we've finished with it.

In the end, I'm sure the hull will be fairer than it has been since it left
the factory, and there not only will be solid epoxy in any of the voids,
there will be a slight coat of epoxy on virtually all the rest of the hull.
Because the hull will also be drier than it has any time in the last 20
years or so, between the skim of the fairing compound (above and beyond the
solid stuff in the ground-out areas), and the NLT 30 mils of mil-spec epoxy
barrier coat we'll apply, we're reasonably certain that water will not reach
any other remaining WSM (water soluble material) in the hull which hasn't
been leached out by our wash/pressure wash routine. If water can't get to
them, they can't get larger in volume, and won't push out on any envelope
(develop a blister).

After that it will be a great deal of bottom paint; given that there were no
visible blisters when we hauled (we only found any weep areas because we
removed every bit of anything on the outside of the hull), we don't expect
we'll be revisiting this again :{))

L8R

Skip, taking a break from scrubbing due to the rain which prevents letting
the stripper sit for a bit before scrubbing, a very effective process...


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

On Fri, 6 May 2011 17:00:45 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, y'all,

Just a followup as we get ready to fair out the hull:

In the course of scrubbing the topsides to remove the PoliGlow (an acrylic
wet-look treatment, if you're unfamiliar with it), we have continually wet
the hull to keep the solution of acrylic and stripper from attaching to our
bare hull as we rinse each section we've scrubbed/stripped.

Every day, of course, it dries out. Every day, also, we see fewer and fewer
instances of exuding water-soluble compounds from inside the hull strata.
We're down to probably not as many as 10 which have any evidence of exiting
moisture.

Today, I went around to clean up any loose edges - any laminate areas which
provided any impediment to a fingernail run in the direction of the suspect
layers to which I'd ground back to chase the wetness or minor delamination.
In about an hour, I'd done the entire hull, without any protection, as it
was literally "turn on the grinder, turn it off, touch the area with the
slowing disk, move on to the next one" - with the wind cooperating by being
in line with the hull, and my making sure the "exhaust" of what little
fiberglass I was removing was downwind of me.

The yard had us, originally, in a spot which was downwind of the pressure
washing operation, which put all sorts of grunge on our boat. They've
offered a free consolation pressure wash; we'll do that just before we fair
the hull, which, given their 4500# unit, should assure that there are no
contaminants on the fiberglass. We'll follow that with an acetone wash for
each section as we fair it.

Our fairing will be with another mil-spec product, an all-solids (no VOCs)
epoxy fairing compound. I have a 2' wide flexible "knife" which I'll use to
conform to the hull and pull such a strip, top to bottom, after we've filled
the holes. Leaving a somewhat-less-than 2' strip in between, I'll
longboard-sand those when it's green (hard enough to sand, but not fully
cured), and then go in between with another strip, same way. Unless the
section has had more than 24 hours to cure, no other prep to scarfing
between them is needed. Those surrounding areas will give a smooth
longboard riding surface.

We have a couple of very small repairs to do which will involve fiberglass,
and a couple of others which will involve WestSystem 403 and epoxy, due to
some voids in joints in the stern part of the two-part hull construction
which we ground out. These, of course, will also be faired with the same
stuff when we've finished with it.

In the end, I'm sure the hull will be fairer than it has been since it left
the factory, and there not only will be solid epoxy in any of the voids,
there will be a slight coat of epoxy on virtually all the rest of the hull.
Because the hull will also be drier than it has any time in the last 20
years or so, between the skim of the fairing compound (above and beyond the
solid stuff in the ground-out areas), and the NLT 30 mils of mil-spec epoxy
barrier coat we'll apply, we're reasonably certain that water will not reach
any other remaining WSM (water soluble material) in the hull which hasn't
been leached out by our wash/pressure wash routine. If water can't get to
them, they can't get larger in volume, and won't push out on any envelope
(develop a blister).

After that it will be a great deal of bottom paint; given that there were no
visible blisters when we hauled (we only found any weep areas because we
removed every bit of anything on the outside of the hull), we don't expect
we'll be revisiting this again :{))


Having done a bit of this in a past life on my old Cal-34, I can tell
you that you are in for just a bit of work. Done properly however
with everything long boarded on three different axis, it will really
come out looking great. Be sure and wet sand that bottom paint
between coats with a long rubber fairing block! I used to wet sand
the final coat, also on three axis, first with 220 and then with 400
grit. My goal was to have water hang on it in a solid unblemished
sheet for at least 5 minutes, with the boatyard perfectly reflected.
When everyone in the yard was stopping by to gawk at it, I knew it was
just about right, sort of like have an anchor that is so big that
everyone stares at it in amazement. :-)