Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
wrote in message
...

The next major project was to clean off the bottom of the boat so we
could
do a new bottom coat.
Between the blister repairs we did in our original,
We'll also be doing a new barrier coat - special paint which will keep
water
away from the fiberglass, which can aborb moisture, leading to
blisters,
later. We've taken most if not all of the barrier coat which was
applied
over a "peel job" (removing all the original gel coat, the factory
means
of
applying a barrier to the fiberglass during manufacture) at a very long
time
ago in a prior owner's history, during our blister repairs in our
initial
refit
Dear skip
please describe your bottom history.
im very interested in you "peel job" and "barrier coat" and blister
job... and how your bottom looks now?

You should be able to imagine the hapless "Flying Pig's" condition
yourself
if you've spent time in various boatyards.

"Flying Pig's" bottom, after having been stripped (peeled) of paint as
Skippy indicated he was doing, would look like a patchwork of
roundish-outlined epoxy blister repairs with some new smaller blisters
rearing their ugly heads in between. Also readily visible are the largish
repairs using polyester resin and matt where he's run aground several
times.
Most notable would be on the port side rounding of the bilge where the
"Pig"
lie on her side pounding on a rocky shelf in the Florida Keys that he
would
never have grounded on if he were paying attention to navigation. Also in
evidence would be way too many tired through hulls (probably about 12-18
all
told) for various unnecessary systems which through hulls probably ALL
need
replacing at this stage due to electrolysis, oxidation and galvanic
action.
Some of them are probably little more than soft lumps of patina at this
stage.

For a blistering boat bottom, a barrier coat is but a band aid that
doesn't
usually work so well as moisture already in the layup will remain there
under the barrier coat where it will still fester and pop up new
blisters.
The only effective way to get rid of the moisture in the layup is to
store
the boat on the hard in Canada where humidity is low and winters are
brutally cold. About two years of dry storage using heat lamps in the
summertime will dry out the soggy lay-up sufficiently so then and only
then
is an epoxy barrier coat of greater worth than dubious.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard
Master of "Cut the Mustard" (no blisters-ever!)


So, if we stored you in Canada for a couple of years, all those festering
pustules on your body would go away and Jessica would visit?

:)

There would be no festering pustules on my body if you'd quit trying to hump
it, HarryK, you little faggot. LOL!

Wilbur Hubbard




Sorry, but I have standards. You don't meet them. :)

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:34:05 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message
...

The next major project was to clean off the bottom of the boat so we could
do a new bottom coat.

Between the blister repairs we did in our original,

We'll also be doing a new barrier coat - special paint which will keep
water
away from the fiberglass, which can aborb moisture, leading to blisters,
later. We've taken most if not all of the barrier coat which was applied
over a "peel job" (removing all the original gel coat, the factory means
of
applying a barrier to the fiberglass during manufacture) at a very long
time
ago in a prior owner's history, during our blister repairs in our initial
refit


Dear skip
please describe your bottom history.
im very interested in you "peel job" and "barrier coat" and blister
job... and how your bottom looks now?


You should be able to imagine the hapless "Flying Pig's" condition yourself
if you've spent time in various boatyards.

"Flying Pig's" bottom, after having been stripped (peeled) of paint as
Skippy indicated he was doing, would look like a patchwork of
roundish-outlined epoxy blister repairs with some new smaller blisters
rearing their ugly heads in between. Also readily visible are the largish
repairs using polyester resin and matt where he's run aground several times.
Most notable would be on the port side rounding of the bilge where the "Pig"
lie on her side pounding on a rocky shelf in the Florida Keys that he would
never have grounded on if he were paying attention to navigation. Also in
evidence would be way too many tired through hulls (probably about 12-18 all
told) for various unnecessary systems which through hulls probably ALL need
replacing at this stage due to electrolysis, oxidation and galvanic action.
Some of them are probably little more than soft lumps of patina at this
stage.

For a blistering boat bottom, a barrier coat is but a band aid that doesn't
usually work so well as moisture already in the layup will remain there
under the barrier coat where it will still fester and pop up new blisters.
The only effective way to get rid of the moisture in the layup is to store
the boat on the hard in Canada where humidity is low and winters are
brutally cold. About two years of dry storage using heat lamps in the
summertime will dry out the soggy lay-up sufficiently so then and only then
is an epoxy barrier coat of greater worth than dubious.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard
Master of "Cut the Mustard" (no blisters-ever!)

Err Willie-boy, you seem remarkably ill advised..... perhaps a
subscription to one of the better boating magazines would be of
advantage. Rather then just trying to read the free magazines down at
the drugstore.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:34:05 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message
...

The next major project was to clean off the bottom of the boat so we
could
do a new bottom coat.

Between the blister repairs we did in our original,

We'll also be doing a new barrier coat - special paint which will keep
water
away from the fiberglass, which can aborb moisture, leading to
blisters,
later. We've taken most if not all of the barrier coat which was
applied
over a "peel job" (removing all the original gel coat, the factory
means
of
applying a barrier to the fiberglass during manufacture) at a very long
time
ago in a prior owner's history, during our blister repairs in our
initial
refit


Dear skip
please describe your bottom history.
im very interested in you "peel job" and "barrier coat" and blister
job... and how your bottom looks now?


You should be able to imagine the hapless "Flying Pig's" condition
yourself
if you've spent time in various boatyards.

"Flying Pig's" bottom, after having been stripped (peeled) of paint as
Skippy indicated he was doing, would look like a patchwork of
roundish-outlined epoxy blister repairs with some new smaller blisters
rearing their ugly heads in between. Also readily visible are the largish
repairs using polyester resin and matt where he's run aground several
times.
Most notable would be on the port side rounding of the bilge where the
"Pig"
lie on her side pounding on a rocky shelf in the Florida Keys that he
would
never have grounded on if he were paying attention to navigation. Also in
evidence would be way too many tired through hulls (probably about 12-18
all
told) for various unnecessary systems which through hulls probably ALL
need
replacing at this stage due to electrolysis, oxidation and galvanic
action.
Some of them are probably little more than soft lumps of patina at this
stage.

For a blistering boat bottom, a barrier coat is but a band aid that
doesn't
usually work so well as moisture already in the layup will remain there
under the barrier coat where it will still fester and pop up new blisters.
The only effective way to get rid of the moisture in the layup is to store
the boat on the hard in Canada where humidity is low and winters are
brutally cold. About two years of dry storage using heat lamps in the
summertime will dry out the soggy lay-up sufficiently so then and only
then
is an epoxy barrier coat of greater worth than dubious.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard
Master of "Cut the Mustard" (no blisters-ever!)

Err Willie-boy, you seem remarkably ill advised..... perhaps a
subscription to one of the better boating magazines would be of
advantage. Rather then just trying to read the free magazines down at
the drugstore.
Cheers,


Um, Bruce, I am NOT ill-advised. The ONLY way to get the saturation out of
the laminate which causes the blisters in the first place is to dry it
thoroughly. The fastest way to dry it is a very low humidity environment.
Everybody knows that the colder it is the lower the humidity the air can
carry. Skippy's idea of spraying the bottom with fresh water is just plain
ludicrous and ignorant. You've got to view the hull that sits in the water
as a membrane. Anybody knows a membrane won't work as a membrane if it is
impermeable. This is the idea behind the barrier coat - impermeability. But,
if all you do is trap moisture in the laminate under an impermeable layer on
the water side you still get a soggy laminate from the inside as a membrane
will work from inside out just the same as from outside in. Very few boats
have a dry bilge. So, the only solution is to DRY the laminate thoroughly
and this can take up to two years in a low humidity, cold environment.
Checking the laminate with a moisture meter is the test. Never barrier coat
a laminate that isn't in compliance with a healthy dry laminate and if you
want to be thorough barrier coat the dry laminate both inside and out. Now,
run along, you're ignorance bothers me.

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

Um, Bruce, I am NOT ill-advised. The ONLY way to get the saturation out of
the laminate which causes the blisters in the first place is to dry it
thoroughly. The fastest way to dry it is a very low humidity environment.
Everybody knows that the colder it is the lower the humidity the air can
carry. Skippy's idea of spraying the bottom with fresh water is just plain
ludicrous and ignorant. You've got to view the hull that sits in the water
as a membrane. Anybody knows a membrane won't work as a membrane if it is
impermeable. This is the idea behind the barrier coat - impermeability.
But, if all you do is trap moisture in the laminate under an impermeable
layer on the water side you still get a soggy laminate from the inside as
a membrane will work from inside out just the same as from outside in.
Very few boats have a dry bilge. So, the only solution is to DRY the
laminate thoroughly and this can take up to two years in a low humidity,
cold environment. Checking the laminate with a moisture meter is the test.
Never barrier coat a laminate that isn't in compliance with a healthy dry
laminate and if you want to be thorough barrier coat the dry laminate both
inside and out. Now, run along, you're ignorance bothers me.

Wilbur Hubbard


Nice try, Wilbur.

Do some research to see why you're wrong. I'll not be a pedant to tell you
why, but you are.

Humidity doesn't help - but you can wait a lifetime, and it won't be dry
until you do what's needed to remove what's causing the problem, the answer
to that being readily available in many sources if you'll just look.

L8R

Skip, not going to bother with the moisture meter again until I start with
the extraction process, but agreeing with you that it has to be gotten out
to make the barrier coat worth having...

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Um, Bruce, I am NOT ill-advised. The ONLY way to get the saturation out of
the laminate........

Skippy's idea of spraying the bottom with fresh water is just plain
ludicrous and ignorant. You've got to view the hull that sits in the water
as a membrane. Anybody knows a membrane won't work as a membrane if it is
impermeable.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

Youre close my esteamed friend. the point skip so demurely suggested
is the fluid that weeps to the surface as the hull "drys" must be
washed off with soap n water. Unless that fluid is removed the
"drying" process stops. Or so says a few people.



bob

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:13:51 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:34:05 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message
...

The next major project was to clean off the bottom of the boat so we
could
do a new bottom coat.

Between the blister repairs we did in our original,

We'll also be doing a new barrier coat - special paint which will keep
water
away from the fiberglass, which can aborb moisture, leading to
blisters,
later. We've taken most if not all of the barrier coat which was
applied
over a "peel job" (removing all the original gel coat, the factory
means
of
applying a barrier to the fiberglass during manufacture) at a very long
time
ago in a prior owner's history, during our blister repairs in our
initial
refit


Dear skip
please describe your bottom history.
im very interested in you "peel job" and "barrier coat" and blister
job... and how your bottom looks now?


You should be able to imagine the hapless "Flying Pig's" condition
yourself
if you've spent time in various boatyards.

"Flying Pig's" bottom, after having been stripped (peeled) of paint as
Skippy indicated he was doing, would look like a patchwork of
roundish-outlined epoxy blister repairs with some new smaller blisters
rearing their ugly heads in between. Also readily visible are the largish
repairs using polyester resin and matt where he's run aground several
times.
Most notable would be on the port side rounding of the bilge where the
"Pig"
lie on her side pounding on a rocky shelf in the Florida Keys that he
would
never have grounded on if he were paying attention to navigation. Also in
evidence would be way too many tired through hulls (probably about 12-18
all
told) for various unnecessary systems which through hulls probably ALL
need
replacing at this stage due to electrolysis, oxidation and galvanic
action.
Some of them are probably little more than soft lumps of patina at this
stage.

For a blistering boat bottom, a barrier coat is but a band aid that
doesn't
usually work so well as moisture already in the layup will remain there
under the barrier coat where it will still fester and pop up new blisters.
The only effective way to get rid of the moisture in the layup is to store
the boat on the hard in Canada where humidity is low and winters are
brutally cold. About two years of dry storage using heat lamps in the
summertime will dry out the soggy lay-up sufficiently so then and only
then
is an epoxy barrier coat of greater worth than dubious.

I hope this helps.

Wilbur Hubbard
Master of "Cut the Mustard" (no blisters-ever!)

Err Willie-boy, you seem remarkably ill advised..... perhaps a
subscription to one of the better boating magazines would be of
advantage. Rather then just trying to read the free magazines down at
the drugstore.
Cheers,


Um, Bruce, I am NOT ill-advised. The ONLY way to get the saturation out of
the laminate which causes the blisters in the first place is to dry it
thoroughly. The fastest way to dry it is a very low humidity environment.
Everybody knows that the colder it is the lower the humidity the air can
carry. Skippy's idea of spraying the bottom with fresh water is just plain
ludicrous and ignorant. You've got to view the hull that sits in the water
as a membrane. Anybody knows a membrane won't work as a membrane if it is
impermeable. This is the idea behind the barrier coat - impermeability. But,
if all you do is trap moisture in the laminate under an impermeable layer on
the water side you still get a soggy laminate from the inside as a membrane
will work from inside out just the same as from outside in. Very few boats
have a dry bilge. So, the only solution is to DRY the laminate thoroughly
and this can take up to two years in a low humidity, cold environment.
Checking the laminate with a moisture meter is the test. Never barrier coat
a laminate that isn't in compliance with a healthy dry laminate and if you
want to be thorough barrier coat the dry laminate both inside and out. Now,
run along, you're ignorance bothers me.

Wilbur Hubbard



As I said, you need to read a better class of magazines.

Unfortunately osmosis is not the simple "dry it out" problem as some
people seem to think. Rather then a laminate saturated with water the
problem is caused by absorbed water which combined with chemicals
resident in the laminate form additional complex chemicals. Puncture
any osmosis blister and you can smell the vinegar like odor of the
chemical mix. The old idea of drying the hull failed as the resident
chemicals do not evaporate.

The quickest remedy is to wash the hull with fresh water which
dissolves the chemicals and removes them from the laminate. More
exactly a series of washdowns and drying (to remove the wash water) is
usually desirable as it removes the maximum amount of the chemicals
causing the osmosis.

Of course this is a very simple explanation of the problem and the
cure however remembering who the explanation is intended for I have
tried to keep things on a level that the reader may have some hope of
understanding.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

"Bob" wrote in message
...

Dear skip
please describe your bottom history.
im very interested in you "peel job" and "barrier coat" and blister
job... and how your bottom looks now?
Bob


Hi, Bob, and circumstantially, Wilbur,

The bottom history is that before we owned the boat, and perhaps before our
seller did, it was peeled. I know nothing of the attempts, if any, to dry
it out.

However, I can tell you for sure that there was massive blistering which we
addressed, at a surface level, during our refit before our launch 4 years
ago.

However, especially as to Wilbur, we've learned a lot as a product of a
surveyor on a neighboring boat proposing something entirely
counterintuitive - wash the boat with water, of all things, once it's opened
up.

I'll leave the research which proves why that's right to those interested,
but it suffices to say that Wilbur's correct in the appearance. Most of the
small repairs during our initial refit we did are stellar. A major repair,
around the rudder curve in the skeg, is bone dry compared to the rest of the
hull, which ranges from "OK" to "OUCH!"

The solution (pardon the expression - those doing the research will see why
the pun) will be to aggressively wet the raw boat, then after it dries out,
pressure wash out that which has come to the surface. Rinse, repeat a
couple of times a week until you're satisfied with the results, and barrier
coat - to, in my case, about 20 mils at a minimum, or as much as 30, despite
the "conventional wisdom" that 14-20 is sufficient.

The barrier coat applied over the prior peel job hadn't done the
wash/rinse/dry, I'm confident, and most of the blisters we cured were under
it. Further, from taking it off, I'm also confident that the level of
buildup of the prior was nowhere near the level of the gelcoat which was
removed before application.

Aside from the delamination (restored after salvage) in the turn of the
starboard bilge, the hull was and is (repair is fine) in great shape.

I'll have pix of the bottom, eventually, in a public site; for now, we
aren't even looking at the pix of the work we've been taking due to wanting
to get out of the yard as quickly as possible. However, there are tiny
pinhole spots showing, and, as I said, there are some metered spots/areas
with a relatively high level. The tiny stuff visible that I've worked on so
far have been very easy to bottom out, but some of them are weeping after
the inital scrubbing (I'm using a round stone in a drill, they're so small).
It will be interesting to see how this wash/rinse affects those areas. I'll
not finish that step until we've done the wash/rinse bits, as they may cure
out themselves, leaving only a tiny surface - dry - blister to remove and
fill.

Thanks for asking. We're rounding 3rd in our getting out of Dodge to go to a
wedding and a family reunion on Sunday, for a week. I'll be offline for
that time, as I'm not taking my computer, where this NG lives, with me...

L8R, y'all

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.

In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.

Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."