Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

Hi, Gang,

Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims
from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung
at me along the way, here's how it all worked out:

I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting
battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources
of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter
charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda
eu2000i).

All charging sources are in good condition. As we nearly never run the
diesel, the other three are the usual charging sources.

All connections were inspected and tightened, and if it looked warranted,
removed first and burnished before replacement. Some of the connection
points were able to be tightened further than they were. At least one of
them, despite no movement possible without fear of breaking either lugs,
mounting posts or wire, proved to be useful, as the battery thingy (how's
*that* for scientific) discussed at length here in the past, designed to
pulse the battery to minimize or even cure sulfation, has not winked at me
for as long as I can remember - it does, now. So, either at the battery end
or the positive charging buss, tightening helped.

Despite that, nothing seemed to improve matters. Removing the wiring from
the switch, and then metering between the posts in all positions either had
no resistance or infinite resistance, as appropriate. However, it was noted
that the switch was miswired during installation by my electrical contractor
of the time, name left out to protect the innocent. The start lead was on
the start battery post. Thus, it was never able to be isolated from the
starter battery. It was moved to the common, allowing isolation when in
"off" or "House" mode. In "all" or "Start" mode, energy would be delivered
to the starter through the starter battery, or through the house battery if
in "House" or "all" mode.

That wasn't a full cure. The engine would start on the house bank, but only
with a shot of WD40 as encouragement. Of course, once started, it was much
more compliant with starting in subsequent attempts without that boost.
Still, it was reluctant to start on the house or start battery alone.

Off comes the starter. Turns out that the brushes COULD stand replacement.
More significantly, the ground straps to them are held in by self-tapping
screws. One of them was loose. New brushes and a replacement, longer (to
overcome the stripped tapered end of the loose one) machine screw assured a
better connection - "Dad's Chandlery" to the rescue!

While I had it out, I got the numbers off it so I can get a replacement when
I'm back in the states. I'll save the one I have as a spare, but not before
I have the commutator turned. Like every brushed motor, there was some lip
on it, but, significantly, not all the way around. The one with the loose
screw likely caused it to stop in the same place each time and, as well, not
have as much energy at that part on the commutator during startup (of the
starter), thus preventing as much wear as the rest of it...

Sure enough, the starter was a great deal happier after reinstallation.
Voltage drops during cranking (fuel off) were the same at the batteries and
the starter, so the wiring was OK. However, a mere "clunk" happened when
trying to start on just the start battery; the house bank turned it somewhat
slowly. That's what led to the exercise with the switch, shown above out of
sequence in the troubleshooting.

Well, dang. Pry open the non-serviceable cells and stick hydrometer in the
plenty-full cells. Sure enough, a bad cell. Didn't bother to do all of
them :{)) I cringe to think of what my still-under-warranty (of course, not
here) 80 buck battery will cost to replace. The guy I sold my spare
injectors to also had to replace his, so I expect I'll be in for a similar
300 or so for mine.

My electrical wizard (Andrew, if you're ever in the Abacos, is widely
recognized as the guy who, if there's a wire attached to it, can figure it
out, fix it, or make it work, if it's not destroyed) assures me that a new
battery will easily start this engine. So, back to NAPA/AID tomorrow for
another battery.

Meanwhile, I've had an annoying drip of diesel fuel at a banjo bolt in the
injector pump. Not a flow, not a squirt, but a drip, over time. Analysis
has it that is why a shot of WD40 let it start immediately - it had
depressurized, and turning it over to start took longer than it should to
bring it back to full pressure. Finding crush washers for this banjo bolt
will be interesting, but our dear friends who've just sold their boat
finally used copper washers instead of the aluminum ones when they faced
about the same problem in the Caribbean; perhaps, even though there are
currently no aluminum washers to be found, I can find some copper ones.
I've previously tightened that bolt to the degree that I feared I'd do one
of my Sampson routines and break it, as I have done on so many other bolts;
I'd be really in it if that happened, so didn't push it. I'm sure that will
help.

As a final test, we ran the battery down (it had shown slap full all day, as
it started full when we began, and the wind and sun kept up with the loads
we had on) by running the microwave and all the other AC devices we could
find, and all the DC loads we could turn on. When the voltage had dropped to
12, and the amphours were down over 50, we energized the alternator, pushed
back in the fuel shutoff (enabling fuel), and hit the start button.
Vrroooom! on "both" "Clunk" on the starter battery (no surprise).
RRRVrroooom! on the house bank.

Andrew first did all the things I'd already done, and was beginning to get
frustrated, despite allowing that he had a similar patience quotient to
mine. It was then that the starter came off, the connections were tightened
to the degree I was concerned for breakage and, significantly, the starter
lead moved to the common point from the start battery point on the switch.
Those were the differences from what I'd already done. 2.5 hours, including
doing the checks I'd done, and he was outta here (not counting the time he
went back ashore to pay some bills while I went to NAPA for the brushes, of
which I got two sets so can do this again if I need to). In all this, he
was cheerful, instructive (not minding my looking over his shoulder to learn
along the way) and accepting of, or needing, my help. I confess to having
dug out my remote starter switch as it got a bit tiresome to run up and down
the companionway for each start sequence, but that aside, we got along
famously.

So, absent only the final proof that the new, presumed outrageously
expensive, starter battery will, in fact, start the diesel, I'd say we'd put
that one to bed. I'll do some further testing later by intentionally
letting the battery bank get low and seeing if it will start that way,
before we head south. I've got a bunch of to-do's so I'll be occupied for a
few days, anyway. However, given the drain we put on as a test, I will be
astounded if it doesn't kick right off.

Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the
wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that
will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer!

L8R, y'all!

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:13:45 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hiya,

Thanks for all the useful discussion, as well as some off-list comms.

Just a quickie before I dive into it with a pro today: I also measured the
resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts; the switch has no resistance issues
as questioned in one of the responses.

More later as I have something more conclusive...

L8R

Skip

One additional comment. From your post of the 26th:

Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still
connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over
starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter
positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start
immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is
that it will go in 1 or 2, tops.

However, Trojan recommends that for an accurate assessment of a
battery that it be fully charged and then "left idle" (no charging or
discharging) for at least 6 and preferable 24 hours.

They recommend completely disconnecting the battery; charging is less
then 70% of full charge; left idle for a time period and then the
voltage checked.

A fully charged battery will be 6.37/12.73 VDC
90% 6.31/12/62
80% 6.25/12.5
70% 6.19/12.37
60% 6.12/12.24
50% 6.05/12.10

However, these figures are predicated on the battery having
electrolyte with specific gravity of 1.277.

I find that often times, particularly in hot climates, the battery
sellers will use an electrolyte of slightly under the recommended S.G.
in compensation for what they believe will be higher then normal
operating temperatures.

In closing, your symptoms are exactly what my old pickup exhibits, low
cranking speed and what appears to be excessive voltage drop while
cranking.... In my case it is an old, wore out, battery that is due
replacement.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

Flying Pig wrote:

Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the
wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that
will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer!

L8R, y'all!

Skip



Congrats, Skip!

--

Richard Lamb
email me:
web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Gang,

Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims
from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung
at me along the way, here's how it all worked out:

I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting
battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources
of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter
charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda
eu2000i).

All charging sources are in good condition. As we nearly never run the
diesel, the other three are the usual charging sources.

All connections were inspected and tightened, and if it looked warranted,
removed first and burnished before replacement. Some of the connection
points were able to be tightened further than they were. At least one of
them, despite no movement possible without fear of breaking either lugs,
mounting posts or wire, proved to be useful, as the battery thingy (how's
*that* for scientific) discussed at length here in the past, designed to
pulse the battery to minimize or even cure sulfation, has not winked at me
for as long as I can remember - it does, now. So, either at the battery end
or the positive charging buss, tightening helped.

Despite that, nothing seemed to improve matters. Removing the wiring from
the switch, and then metering between the posts in all positions either had
no resistance or infinite resistance, as appropriate. However, it was noted
that the switch was miswired during installation by my electrical contractor
of the time, name left out to protect the innocent. The start lead was on
the start battery post. Thus, it was never able to be isolated from the
starter battery. It was moved to the common, allowing isolation when in
"off" or "House" mode. In "all" or "Start" mode, energy would be delivered
to the starter through the starter battery, or through the house battery if
in "House" or "all" mode.

That wasn't a full cure. The engine would start on the house bank, but only
with a shot of WD40 as encouragement. Of course, once started, it was much
more compliant with starting in subsequent attempts without that boost.
Still, it was reluctant to start on the house or start battery alone.

Off comes the starter. Turns out that the brushes COULD stand replacement.
More significantly, the ground straps to them are held in by self-tapping
screws. One of them was loose. New brushes and a replacement, longer (to
overcome the stripped tapered end of the loose one) machine screw assured a
better connection - "Dad's Chandlery" to the rescue!

While I had it out, I got the numbers off it so I can get a replacement when
I'm back in the states. I'll save the one I have as a spare, but not before
I have the commutator turned. Like every brushed motor, there was some lip
on it, but, significantly, not all the way around. The one with the loose
screw likely caused it to stop in the same place each time and, as well, not
have as much energy at that part on the commutator during startup (of the
starter), thus preventing as much wear as the rest of it...

Sure enough, the starter was a great deal happier after reinstallation.
Voltage drops during cranking (fuel off) were the same at the batteries and
the starter, so the wiring was OK. However, a mere "clunk" happened when
trying to start on just the start battery; the house bank turned it somewhat
slowly. That's what led to the exercise with the switch, shown above out of
sequence in the troubleshooting.

Well, dang. Pry open the non-serviceable cells and stick hydrometer in the
plenty-full cells. Sure enough, a bad cell. Didn't bother to do all of
them :{)) I cringe to think of what my still-under-warranty (of course, not
here) 80 buck battery will cost to replace. The guy I sold my spare
injectors to also had to replace his, so I expect I'll be in for a similar
300 or so for mine.

My electrical wizard (Andrew, if you're ever in the Abacos, is widely
recognized as the guy who, if there's a wire attached to it, can figure it
out, fix it, or make it work, if it's not destroyed) assures me that a new
battery will easily start this engine. So, back to NAPA/AID tomorrow for
another battery.

Meanwhile, I've had an annoying drip of diesel fuel at a banjo bolt in the
injector pump. Not a flow, not a squirt, but a drip, over time. Analysis
has it that is why a shot of WD40 let it start immediately - it had
depressurized, and turning it over to start took longer than it should to
bring it back to full pressure. Finding crush washers for this banjo bolt
will be interesting, but our dear friends who've just sold their boat
finally used copper washers instead of the aluminum ones when they faced
about the same problem in the Caribbean; perhaps, even though there are
currently no aluminum washers to be found, I can find some copper ones.
I've previously tightened that bolt to the degree that I feared I'd do one
of my Sampson routines and break it, as I have done on so many other bolts;
I'd be really in it if that happened, so didn't push it. I'm sure that will
help.

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.


As a final test, we ran the battery down (it had shown slap full all day, as
it started full when we began, and the wind and sun kept up with the loads
we had on) by running the microwave and all the other AC devices we could
find, and all the DC loads we could turn on. When the voltage had dropped to
12, and the amphours were down over 50, we energized the alternator, pushed
back in the fuel shutoff (enabling fuel), and hit the start button.
Vrroooom! on "both" "Clunk" on the starter battery (no surprise).
RRRVrroooom! on the house bank.

Andrew first did all the things I'd already done, and was beginning to get
frustrated, despite allowing that he had a similar patience quotient to
mine. It was then that the starter came off, the connections were tightened
to the degree I was concerned for breakage and, significantly, the starter
lead moved to the common point from the start battery point on the switch.
Those were the differences from what I'd already done. 2.5 hours, including
doing the checks I'd done, and he was outta here (not counting the time he
went back ashore to pay some bills while I went to NAPA for the brushes, of
which I got two sets so can do this again if I need to). In all this, he
was cheerful, instructive (not minding my looking over his shoulder to learn
along the way) and accepting of, or needing, my help. I confess to having
dug out my remote starter switch as it got a bit tiresome to run up and down
the companionway for each start sequence, but that aside, we got along
famously.

So, absent only the final proof that the new, presumed outrageously
expensive, starter battery will, in fact, start the diesel, I'd say we'd put
that one to bed. I'll do some further testing later by intentionally
letting the battery bank get low and seeing if it will start that way,
before we head south. I've got a bunch of to-do's so I'll be occupied for a
few days, anyway. However, given the drain we put on as a test, I will be
astounded if it doesn't kick right off.

Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the
wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that
will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer!

L8R, y'all!

Skip
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:09:57 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

He's in the Bahamas and everything has to be shipped in from the US.

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the
wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that
will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer!

Clearly you've made some progress but don't stop working on it until
it starts the first time, every time. Using WD40 or any other
starting fluid is a really bad practice.

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

Doing a bit of cat'ing he

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
..

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.

Yes, that's (CV - actually, I think it's CAV) what we have, but it's a
4-154. However, I leapt to the conclusion that they were aluminum, as
that's the case on the return banjos on the injectors. None the less,
AID/NAPA doesn't have them. I'm trying local boat yards next, and a buddy
boat next to me in the harbor thinks he might have them for his 4-236; maybe
they're the right size.


Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or
auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while,

$218 for a marine 1000CCA, see response about expensive in the Bahamas
earlier. I have a size limitation for where it can mount of 6.75" depth
(height and length don't matter) which makes truck batteries problematic,
even if they did (when I go to NAPA) have adapters to make a screw post.
However, I'm checking that out before I give up and cough up for a marine
one...

and...


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

Clearly you've made some progress but don't stop working on it until
it starts the first time, every time. Using WD40 or any other
starting fluid is a really bad practice.

Ya, I know. Just a test at the time. I'm intentionally running down the
house bank (yet to go get one of those expensive start batteries); so far
it's kicked right off at 80, 120, and 160AH down - the only time of
spritzing was that single instance.

That was just to see if it would turn over at all...

Meanwhile, for when I get back to the states, where's the best price on a
new (I'm keeping the old one for a spare) for a Delco 1107587 or equivalent?
Most of what I see is much smaller, with external (not as big on the inside,
therefore, meaning fewer horses and less life, as far as I'm concerned)
bolts rather than internal like the above...

L8R, yall

Skip, off to find another oil evacuation drill-driven pump as mine has quit
and the new spare I had doesn't work at all.


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Gang,

Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims
from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung
at me along the way, here's how it all worked out:

I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting
battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources
of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter
charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda
eu2000i).

You should use a "starting" battery for your starting battery, not a
deep-cycle. A starting battery has many thin plates, allowing it to
deliver the very high currents required for starting, but making it
less tolerant of frequent deep discharges.

A deep-cycle battery has fewer thick plates which makes it much more
tolerant of deep discharge cycles, but, less able to deliver the large
currents required for starting.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote:

My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine?
40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which
uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings.

Which can be reused, if you just re-anneal them....

Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

*I have 4 total sources
of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter
charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda
eu2000i).


Skip I have diagnosed your problme and offer a recomendation:

I had no idea you had so much **** on your boat Skip.

1) Git rid of the wind and solar and inverter and all the wire/
connections/switches magic computer board regulators associated.

2) Increase your house bank to 2000 Ah.

3) Get a dedicated hard wired generator.
(I think a CAT 3406 would be sized apprpreatly for your needs. add
sarcasam as needed)

The reason you have so many problmes is cause you have so many
recreational electrical systems on board. I wont even ask about your
refer/computer/home entertainment system/ dishwahser/blender/
microwave systems and fubar switching mechanisms......

4) Rip all your chargin systems out! Get a real generator end of
story.In other words go get a nice 10 year old 70 foot gulf shrimper.
youll pay about 200,000 after a little refit. Then you can have all
the do dads you want. **** you can light up the sky like the rest of
those gom gooks.

Your attempting to make a sailing yacht into a 2500 sq ft ranch home
and now your finding just how difficult balancing complex systems can
become.

K.I.S.S.
BoB

PS CHrist you must enjoy wasting your life f-ing around with non-
necessary tasks :/ Try volunteering someplace to make this a better
world instead of wasting your life chasing down endless self created
bugs.