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October Ooops!
October Ooops!
We left you last time having successfully dodged all the September storms, enjoying sailing and diving in the warm Bahamas waters. October is still well within the hurricane season, however, and, true to form, several storms formed and went on. At this writing, Otto is making his way up the North Atlantic, far from us, and, the track forecasts expect, even poor Bermuda, which has been sorely tested this season. The associated weather systems of the various storms, fronts, lows and troughs brought relatively higher winds to the Bahamas, but no emergencies... We left Marsh Harbour to go visit Hopetown, nearby, successfully navigating the "deep draft" route into an otherwise very shallow entrance to the harbor. We were led into the mooring field by a friend who'd offered us his mooring for our stay there, a real benefit, as it was free. Hopetown harbor has very little anchoring room due to all the moorings present, but it's pretty well protected. In fact, from Marsh Harbour, it is our most immediately available hurricane hole. In speaking with our friend, we learned that 15 of the moorings there were installed when he had taken over Abaco Charters, now defunct following hurricane Floyd, which saw sustained winds of 240mph. Those new moorings were massive fixtures screwed into bedrock and unlikely to move as the 4000# concrete blocks did, accompanying virtually every boat in the harbor to the lee shore. He cautioned that his mooring was only concrete, and when we got an expected blow, it would be prudent to move onto one of the others. Despite the forecasts, we didn't have huge winds, but we did have a brief period of sustained 20-30mph breezes early in the month. Our KISS wind generator does a great job of keeping our batteries topped up, but it doesn't really like continous high winds. It has protective circuits in it to prevent damage from overheating in those conditions, and I'd noted that our ammeter, the gauge which tells us how much power we're generating, was indicating that those safety features were kicking in. However, we also noted that it seemed that our unit wasn't performing up to snuff, particularly in that it didn't turn in the same level of light winds as before. An investigative trip into the engine room, guided by emailed instructions from our vendor, svhotwire.com, showed that not everything was perfect. All of my diagnostics seemed to be showing that all was well, but, in desperation, I employed one of the tricks shown in that email, taking out the control switch, bypassing it by connecting our power leads directly to the rectifier, the electronics which convert alternating current from the generator to direct current which the batteries can use. Sure enough, the unit seems to be operating as it should, other than it seemed to take more wind than before to turn. I'd check that next, but taking the switch to the workbench, and diagnosing with a multimeter, I discovered a tiny bleedover between poles of the switch in the "on" position. That would negate some of the power, and, even, tend to make the system think it was "off" - a condition which causes the blades to turn very slowly in high winds, without generating power. Ooops! Good news, that's a simple fix, and having the switch out of the circuit just means that in a severe blow I would have have to cock the KISS so as to not freely turn to follow the wind, exactly the means I used during Hurricane Hanna, during high winds. Sure enough, in the blow described below, it did, in fact, continue to make power in an about-20* offset condition, during sustained high winds later. We'd had a forecast of high winds which looked like they'd never arrive, as the day appointed was nearly calm. I took that advantage to climb up to the KISS and slowly rotate the blade. I'll save you the geek talk, but there's some suspicion that I might have a failing bearing. Ooops! No biggie - if one fails completely, it will just not turn, not destroy the unit, and I'd taken the precaution of ordering another set after our unit took its swim in Marsh Harbour very early this year. Faithful followers of our adventures will recall that I inspected the current bearings after removing them from the rotor and found them to be in apparent good condition. Thus relieved, I heavily greased them and reinstalled them before reassembly. It may be that our seeming slower turning blade is related, but for now, all appears well, other than that it doesn't turn in light winds. That's of little matter in the end, as power doesn't start to develop in earnest until we get above 10 knots. Back to the mooring, however, the blow arrived the following night. I got up at my usual time to prepare for my being the morning "Cruisers' Net" anchor. RIGHT before I was to go on the air my display (apparently - see below) died. Ooops! As I had no means to troubleshoot and also do my work, I called my backup, who took over for me My computer problem turned out to be a loose video connection, easily remedied, and I was back in business immediately. However, as long as my backup had the net started, I'd stay out of his way. Good thing, too, as Lydia was in the cockpit just starting her coffee and hollered me topsides, double-quick. Our mooring line had parted, and under 25-30mph wind-driven rain, we were headed straight for a rock wall. Ooops! The first immediate solution was to turn on the engine. Crankety crank, but no fire. We continued toward the wall. Ooops! Leaping out of the cockpit, I slipped on the wet deck and fell against the rail. Up quickly, I got the anchor deployed, which despite it streaming behind us, arrested our forward motion. I'd later discover a gash in my shoulder/arm where I hit a fitting on the way down, unnoticed in all the excitement until I saw the blood, and the barked knee (non-skid is abrasive!) which suppurated a bit, discovered even later. Ooops! Now that our forward motion was stopped, we came to rest against a piling on the dock adjacent to a home for sale. If the wind were to shift, we'd have the potential to rotate on that piling and then slide, stern first, into the dock. So, I made us fast to the piling in such a way that we couldn't slip back. Once secure against that potential, we set about to improving our situation, as we didn't want to stay where we were, pinned against a piling, particularly since we were in relatively shallow water at high tide - waiting for the blow to finish would mean we were also aground! As the prior mooring was untenable, we made ready to go to one of the hurricane-proven bouys. Fortunately, we carry LOTS of line, including one of the original 3/4" 3-strand anchor rodes. It was long enough to reach the bouy, where I tied it off. Loosening the windlass clutch after I put the snubber on the anchor chain, so it wouldn't continue to run out, we took the rode around the windlass' capstan. Then, using the tremendous mechanical advantage of the windlass, we tightened the line so that even though the anchor was set (on an extremely short scope, of which I was fearful!) we'd not have the potential to move closer to the wall. Our second line was a 100' sheet left over from our original running rigging. Taking that to the mooring ball, and securing it, and then, leading it over the turning block for our normal genoa sheets at the stern, I was able to take tension on that line by winching it tight. With the bow line tight, and the line to the piling keepin us from swinging into the dock, with Lydia on the windlass and me on the winch, we pulled ourselves off the piling with the triangle formed by the bow line, the stern line, and Flying Pig. We were now held in place, with no pressure on the piling. Meanwhile, it had rained so much that our dinghy was inches deep in water, well over the "bilge" floorboards. Ironically, that made for more stability in the wind and the waves, so I left emptying it for another day, but made great use of it several tims that day. Thus temporarily secured from moving, and no longer pressing up against the piling, we set about to getting our auxiliary engine started. We were not seriously down in our capacity, but our voltage, apparently,. was just a bit low for the high revs needed from the starter. Running the Honda generator for just a couple of minutes, due to the power being fed to the batteries at a much higher voltage, the engine started right up. Thus emboldended, and with the stern line on the buoy preventing us from sliding rearward, we continued winching until we were well away. Running the windlass enough to turn us into the wind allowed us remove the line we'd thrown over the piling to prevent our moving backward, so we were now free. We continued winching with the bow line until until we were able to attach to that (temporary) mooring with their two, much stouter, pendants. Once secure, I took the rode off the windlass, reset the clutch, and retrieved the anchor. Once the anchor was secured by clipping it to the strong point on the bow, it made the windlass again suitable for duty on a bow line, so, once again, I released the clutch, taking the chain gypsy out of the system, but leaving the capstan engaged. Our excursion had happened nearly exactly at the lunar high tide. As the mooring was the closest one, we were concerned for our depth, now falling fast, so we repeated the process, moving to a more centrally located mooring. First, though, I had to get our bit of a rats nest of lines, formed in the hurry-up mode, sorted out. Our first step was to relieve the pressure on the 3/4" line, held fast in the chock by the pendant's pressure. Our inflatable dinghy sometimes does tugboat duty, and this was one of those cases. I used it to shove the bow to the other side, taking more pressure on the opposite pendant and relieving that on my side. Once the "safety line" was free from that trap, I still had to get the knotted lines off the temporary buoy. It was a bit of wrestling match, compounded by the now-very-tight pendants' thimbles (a stainless steel reinforcement inside the rope loop attached to the buoy) compressed against them, but soon enough, the stern line was on deck, and the bow line was free. By this time, we considered the 3/4" rode a "safety line" in the event of the mooring pendants' potential failure. So, I took that line to the final mooring. Smarter, this time, I put that knot on a different point, one which wouldn't be fouled by the thimbles, and we took up the slack with the windlass. Once the tension was off, it was a simple matter to slip off the temporary mooring's pendants, and we were free. However, the direction of the wind was such that we were likely to swing (on this very long line) into another of the mooring bouys very closely spaced here. So, while Lydia controlled the windlass, taking up the just-slack line I maintained by controlling our speed, I steered us clear of the other buoys. We were soon snug to the new mooring, and I once again got back in the dinghy, making sure there were no fouls in the pendants, and handed them up for Lydia to install. Once those were in place, we removed the safety line from the windlass and cleated it off in the still-howling wind. By this time, however, the rain had stopped, albeit totally cloudy, and we set about to clean up. Lines stowed, gashes washed out with hydrogen peroxide and bandaged, we "sat a spell" - as they say in the south - enjoying our coffee and somewhat delayed breakfast! A day later, the sun came out, so I got in the dinghy and bailed the bulk of it out. Normally, I'd just run the dinghy fast enough that it would run out the drain hole in the transom, but the harbor has a 3mph speed limit, so the last of it would have to wait for later. At the same time, the wind died (to mid-high teens) sufficiently to allow returning the KISS to its free postion, and we once again were enjoying our free 15-30A (currently 10 knots, 7A wind, and 25A solar). With the passage of that front, it's now cooler, too, but still a lovely upper-70s, very dry air. Ahhh... So, all is well in the Bahamas. I think it likely that the adrenaline-enhancing excitement might be finished for a while. Those interested will still be able to see our route into Hopetown on tinyurl.com/flyingpigspot for another couple of days, and, as we move on in a few days, those travels as well. So, until next time, Stay Tuned! L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
October Ooops!
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... snip Hopetown harbor has very little anchoring room due to all the moorings present, but it's pretty well protected. In fact, from Marsh Harbour, it is our most immediately available hurricane hole. In speaking with our friend, we learned that 15 of the moorings there were installed when he had taken over Abaco Charters, now defunct following hurricane Floyd, which saw sustained winds of 240mph. snip I hope that's a typo, Skippy. Sustained winds of 240mph would be what? a category 10? lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Floyd#Bahamas Maybe you meant 240kph???? Wilbur Hubbard |
October Ooops!
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... October Ooops! We left you last time having successfully dodged all the September storms, enjoying sailing and diving in the warm Bahamas waters. October is still well within the hurricane season, however, and, true to form, several storms formed and went on. At this writing, Otto is making his way up the North Atlantic, far from us, and, the track forecasts expect, even poor Bermuda, which has been sorely tested this season. The associated weather systems of the various storms, fronts, lows and troughs brought relatively higher winds to the Bahamas, but no emergencies... We left Marsh Harbour to go visit Hopetown, nearby, successfully navigating the "deep draft" route into an otherwise very shallow entrance to the harbor. We were led into the mooring field by a friend who'd offered us his mooring for our stay there, a real benefit, as it was free. Hopetown harbor has very little anchoring room due to all the moorings present, but it's pretty well protected. In fact, from Marsh Harbour, it is our most immediately available hurricane hole. In speaking with our friend, we learned that 15 of the moorings there were installed when he had taken over Abaco Charters, now defunct following hurricane Floyd, which saw sustained winds of 240mph. Those new moorings were massive fixtures screwed into bedrock and unlikely to move as the 4000# concrete blocks did, accompanying virtually every boat in the harbor to the lee shore. He cautioned that his mooring was only concrete, and when we got an expected blow, it would be prudent to move onto one of the others. Despite the forecasts, we didn't have huge winds, but we did have a brief period of sustained 20-30mph breezes early in the month. Our KISS wind generator does a great job of keeping our batteries topped up, but it doesn't really like continous high winds. It has protective circuits in it to prevent damage from overheating in those conditions, and I'd noted that our ammeter, the gauge which tells us how much power we're generating, was indicating that those safety features were kicking in. However, we also noted that it seemed that our unit wasn't performing up to snuff, particularly in that it didn't turn in the same level of light winds as before. An investigative trip into the engine room, guided by emailed instructions from our vendor, svhotwire.com, showed that not everything was perfect. All of my diagnostics seemed to be showing that all was well, but, in desperation, I employed one of the tricks shown in that email, taking out the control switch, bypassing it by connecting our power leads directly to the rectifier, the electronics which convert alternating current from the generator to direct current which the batteries can use. Sure enough, the unit seems to be operating as it should, other than it seemed to take more wind than before to turn. I'd check that next, but taking the switch to the workbench, and diagnosing with a multimeter, I discovered a tiny bleedover between poles of the switch in the "on" position. That would negate some of the power, and, even, tend to make the system think it was "off" - a condition which causes the blades to turn very slowly in high winds, without generating power. Ooops! Good news, that's a simple fix, and having the switch out of the circuit just means that in a severe blow I would have have to cock the KISS so as to not freely turn to follow the wind, exactly the means I used during Hurricane Hanna, during high winds. Sure enough, in the blow described below, it did, in fact, continue to make power in an about-20* offset condition, during sustained high winds later. We'd had a forecast of high winds which looked like they'd never arrive, as the day appointed was nearly calm. I took that advantage to climb up to the KISS and slowly rotate the blade. I'll save you the geek talk, but there's some suspicion that I might have a failing bearing. Ooops! No biggie - if one fails completely, it will just not turn, not destroy the unit, and I'd taken the precaution of ordering another set after our unit took its swim in Marsh Harbour very early this year. Faithful followers of our adventures will recall that I inspected the current bearings after removing them from the rotor and found them to be in apparent good condition. Thus relieved, I heavily greased them and reinstalled them before reassembly. It may be that our seeming slower turning blade is related, but for now, all appears well, other than that it doesn't turn in light winds. That's of little matter in the end, as power doesn't start to develop in earnest until we get above 10 knots. Back to the mooring, however, the blow arrived the following night. I got up at my usual time to prepare for my being the morning "Cruisers' Net" anchor. RIGHT before I was to go on the air my display (apparently - see below) died. Ooops! As I had no means to troubleshoot and also do my work, I called my backup, who took over for me My computer problem turned out to be a loose video connection, easily remedied, and I was back in business immediately. However, as long as my backup had the net started, I'd stay out of his way. Good thing, too, as Lydia was in the cockpit just starting her coffee and hollered me topsides, double-quick. Our mooring line had parted, and under 25-30mph wind-driven rain, we were headed straight for a rock wall. Ooops! The first immediate solution was to turn on the engine. Crankety crank, but no fire. We continued toward the wall. Ooops! Leaping out of the cockpit, I slipped on the wet deck and fell against the rail. Up quickly, I got the anchor deployed, which despite it streaming behind us, arrested our forward motion. I'd later discover a gash in my shoulder/arm where I hit a fitting on the way down, unnoticed in all the excitement until I saw the blood, and the barked knee (non-skid is abrasive!) which suppurated a bit, discovered even later. Ooops! Now that our forward motion was stopped, we came to rest against a piling on the dock adjacent to a home for sale. If the wind were to shift, we'd have the potential to rotate on that piling and then slide, stern first, into the dock. So, I made us fast to the piling in such a way that we couldn't slip back. Once secure against that potential, we set about to improving our situation, as we didn't want to stay where we were, pinned against a piling, particularly since we were in relatively shallow water at high tide - waiting for the blow to finish would mean we were also aground! As the prior mooring was untenable, we made ready to go to one of the hurricane-proven bouys. Fortunately, we carry LOTS of line, including one of the original 3/4" 3-strand anchor rodes. It was long enough to reach the bouy, where I tied it off. Loosening the windlass clutch after I put the snubber on the anchor chain, so it wouldn't continue to run out, we took the rode around the windlass' capstan. Then, using the tremendous mechanical advantage of the windlass, we tightened the line so that even though the anchor was set (on an extremely short scope, of which I was fearful!) we'd not have the potential to move closer to the wall. Our second line was a 100' sheet left over from our original running rigging. Taking that to the mooring ball, and securing it, and then, leading it over the turning block for our normal genoa sheets at the stern, I was able to take tension on that line by winching it tight. With the bow line tight, and the line to the piling keepin us from swinging into the dock, with Lydia on the windlass and me on the winch, we pulled ourselves off the piling with the triangle formed by the bow line, the stern line, and Flying Pig. We were now held in place, with no pressure on the piling. Meanwhile, it had rained so much that our dinghy was inches deep in water, well over the "bilge" floorboards. Ironically, that made for more stability in the wind and the waves, so I left emptying it for another day, but made great use of it several tims that day. Thus temporarily secured from moving, and no longer pressing up against the piling, we set about to getting our auxiliary engine started. We were not seriously down in our capacity, but our voltage, apparently,. was just a bit low for the high revs needed from the starter. Running the Honda generator for just a couple of minutes, due to the power being fed to the batteries at a much higher voltage, the engine started right up. Thus emboldended, and with the stern line on the buoy preventing us from sliding rearward, we continued winching until we were well away. Running the windlass enough to turn us into the wind allowed us remove the line we'd thrown over the piling to prevent our moving backward, so we were now free. We continued winching with the bow line until until we were able to attach to that (temporary) mooring with their two, much stouter, pendants. Once secure, I took the rode off the windlass, reset the clutch, and retrieved the anchor. Once the anchor was secured by clipping it to the strong point on the bow, it made the windlass again suitable for duty on a bow line, so, once again, I released the clutch, taking the chain gypsy out of the system, but leaving the capstan engaged. Our excursion had happened nearly exactly at the lunar high tide. As the mooring was the closest one, we were concerned for our depth, now falling fast, so we repeated the process, moving to a more centrally located mooring. First, though, I had to get our bit of a rats nest of lines, formed in the hurry-up mode, sorted out. Our first step was to relieve the pressure on the 3/4" line, held fast in the chock by the pendant's pressure. Our inflatable dinghy sometimes does tugboat duty, and this was one of those cases. I used it to shove the bow to the other side, taking more pressure on the opposite pendant and relieving that on my side. Once the "safety line" was free from that trap, I still had to get the knotted lines off the temporary buoy. It was a bit of wrestling match, compounded by the now-very-tight pendants' thimbles (a stainless steel reinforcement inside the rope loop attached to the buoy) compressed against them, but soon enough, the stern line was on deck, and the bow line was free. By this time, we considered the 3/4" rode a "safety line" in the event of the mooring pendants' potential failure. So, I took that line to the final mooring. Smarter, this time, I put that knot on a different point, one which wouldn't be fouled by the thimbles, and we took up the slack with the windlass. Once the tension was off, it was a simple matter to slip off the temporary mooring's pendants, and we were free. However, the direction of the wind was such that we were likely to swing (on this very long line) into another of the mooring bouys very closely spaced here. So, while Lydia controlled the windlass, taking up the just-slack line I maintained by controlling our speed, I steered us clear of the other buoys. We were soon snug to the new mooring, and I once again got back in the dinghy, making sure there were no fouls in the pendants, and handed them up for Lydia to install. Once those were in place, we removed the safety line from the windlass and cleated it off in the still-howling wind. By this time, however, the rain had stopped, albeit totally cloudy, and we set about to clean up. Lines stowed, gashes washed out with hydrogen peroxide and bandaged, we "sat a spell" - as they say in the south - enjoying our coffee and somewhat delayed breakfast! A day later, the sun came out, so I got in the dinghy and bailed the bulk of it out. Normally, I'd just run the dinghy fast enough that it would run out the drain hole in the transom, but the harbor has a 3mph speed limit, so the last of it would have to wait for later. At the same time, the wind died (to mid-high teens) sufficiently to allow returning the KISS to its free postion, and we once again were enjoying our free 15-30A (currently 10 knots, 7A wind, and 25A solar). With the passage of that front, it's now cooler, too, but still a lovely upper-70s, very dry air. Ahhh... So, all is well in the Bahamas. I think it likely that the adrenaline-enhancing excitement might be finished for a while. Those interested will still be able to see our route into Hopetown on tinyurl.com/flyingpigspot for another couple of days, and, as we move on in a few days, those travels as well. So, until next time, Stay Tuned! L8R Skip The usual sad comedy of errors! Don't you EVER learn from your mistakes? That girl Sunderland got knocked down and dismasted, ending the circumnavigation attempt because she was below during a gale and huge following seas trying to get her balky engine started. She could have died but she was lucky that the knockdown only dismasted her boat. She is no sailor because she was fooling around with extraneous systems (trying to get the motor started, to charge the batteries so she could charge her cell phone so she could yak on the phone to her parents - all during a gale when she should have been keeping a watch and steering.) And what does Skippy do? He's down below fooling with this electrical connections to his wind generator and doesn't pay the least bit of attention to a bum mooring chafing through and carrying away. Pathetic, Skippy, pathetic. You should have dived on the mooring and checked its integrity and not just blindly trusted it. I've been there, the water's fine. No excuses! For a while there I thought I detected you making some progress toward professionalism. Lately, however, I see the same old amateurism and lack of attention to the job at hand rearing its ugly head. You need to get your priorities straight. Wilbur Hubbard |
October Ooops!
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com... I hope that's a typo, Skippy. Sustained winds of 240mph would be what? a category 10? lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Floyd#Bahamas Maybe you meant 240kph???? Wilbur Hubbard Could be. I was repeating the information of my source in Hopetown, over which the eye passed. I thought it impossible, but he assured me that's what happened. In any case, I'm glad I wasn't here! L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
October Ooops!
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com... And what does Skippy do? He's down below fooling with this electrical connections to his wind generator and doesn't pay the least bit of attention to a bum mooring chafing through and carrying away. Pathetic, Skippy, pathetic. You should have dived on the mooring and checked its integrity and not just blindly trusted it. I've been there, the water's fine. No excuses! For a while there I thought I detected you making some progress toward professionalism. Lately, however, I see the same old amateurism and lack of attention to the job at hand rearing its ugly head. You need to get your priorities straight. Wilbur Hubbard Wilbur, you're starting to sound like Boob. On top of that, relative to another thread, rude and inconsiderate would include not clipping at least a substantial portion of my usual longwindedness so as to make those hanging on your every word not have to wait so long. My wind generator troubleshooting was during a calm period, literally no wind. It's a lot safer to handle exposed electrical ends without the blade going around, ya know. The mooring didn't fail at the bottom - it was the pendant's end. **** happens. Those that never have seen it aren't out there doing it... L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage. Stamp out Sesquipedalianism |
October Ooops!
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:17:58 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: For a while there I thought I detected you making some progress toward professionalism. Lately, however, I see the same old amateurism and lack of attention to the job at hand rearing its ugly head. You need to get your priorities straight. Unfortunately there is some truth here. You seem to have way too many issues with that engine. If you don't get to the bottom of the root cause(s) and correct them, it will cost you the boat sooner or later. |
October Ooops!
*Ooops! Good news, that's a simple fix, I might have a failing bearing. *Ooops! No biggie - if one fails completely, I was to go on the air my display (apparently - see below) died. *Ooops! The first immediate solution was to turn on the engine. *Crankety crank, but no fire. *We continued toward the wall. *Ooops! discovered even later. *Ooops! Now that our forward motion was stopped, we came to rest against a piling on the dock adjacent to a home for sale. to finish would mean we were also aground! read more » Skip Thank you for sharing this with us. You area obviously a recreational sailor with a great wealth of experinces! Thank you... Bob |
October Ooops!
Unfortunately there is some truth here. * You seem to have way too many issues with that engine. * If you don't get to the bottom of the root cause(s) and correct them, it will cost you the boat sooner or later. Agreed Mr. Wayne: But I think the pattern that emerged over the last several years pretty well forecasts a predictable future.............. Type Fuss type fret tinker OOPS! type tinker fuss fret OOPS! Type Fuss type fret tinker type tinker OOPS! bob |
October Ooops!
That's a really good tale. It is instructive. Statistically, most disasters are due to multiple failures. I believe you were very
lucky. You suffered multiple failures and saved the boat. You may not be so lucky next time. Please consider having a serious, large contingency battery that is NOT connected to anything in a standby state for situations like this......it's cheap insurance. I use a compressed air starter on my diesel and carry 2, 100 liter tanks of which one is always full and not normally connected for just this reason. A freind years ago, lost his 60' ketch off Okinawa due to this identical fault. He also used an electric starter, but when he needed the engine, bilge water had shorted it out and he lost the boat on a corral reef. I use air now, my engine will snorkle. Steve |
October Ooops!
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:38:30 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote: That's a really good tale. It is instructive. Statistically, most disasters are due to multiple failures. I believe you were very lucky. You suffered multiple failures and saved the boat. You may not be so lucky next time. Please consider having a serious, large contingency battery that is NOT connected to anything in a standby state for situations like this......it's cheap insurance. I use a compressed air starter on my diesel and carry 2, 100 liter tanks of which one is always full and not normally connected for just this reason. A freind years ago, lost his 60' ketch off Okinawa due to this identical fault. He also used an electric starter, but when he needed the engine, bilge water had shorted it out and he lost the boat on a corral reef. I use air now, my engine will snorkle. Steve We used these in a lot of projects - heavy earth moving equipment and oil field patch installations and they are a pain when the air pressure gets low. The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual (crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
October Ooops!
The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual (crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine. Cheers, Bruce Darn, that is redunant..... Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means replace stuff. I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system. I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch means REPLACE stuff before failure. I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3 larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story.............. stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or your motor started. Boob |
October Ooops!
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote: The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual (crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine. Cheers, Bruce Darn, that is redunant..... Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means replace stuff. I'm not sure why the Russian equipment was built that way but nearly all of the engines, powering cranes, bulldozers, etc., which were built in the middle 70's were equipped that way. I had assumed, but don't know for sure, that the engines might have been turned out by a plant that also built for the military, in which case perhaps it made sense. I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system. I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch means REPLACE stuff before failure. I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3 larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story.............. stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or your motor started. Boob Certainly, in your case, it was time to replace the cables but the basic reason was that the cables weren't installed correctly in the first place. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
October Ooops!
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:54:30 -0400, WaIIy wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT), Bob wrote: The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual (crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine. Cheers, Bruce Darn, that is redunant..... Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means replace stuff. I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system. I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch means REPLACE stuff before failure. I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3 larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story.............. stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or your motor started. Boob I'm glad to see you're starting to use your real name. Gosh, you replaced a couple of cables. Great story. And what have you done this week? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
October Ooops!
Boob I'm glad to see you're starting to use your real name. Ya i really dont care bout spelling and such as i dont care about it when I read others post here. Im more interested in ideas than commas and caps. Gosh, you replaced a couple of cables. *Great story. Ya it sure beats, I cant get my anchor up and am dragging over a pipe line or UW cable crossing..... and have to slip it And what have you done this week? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Fleet week in SF, CA. Loads of fun. Might take a cruise on the sailing scow schooner ALMA or maybe jsut drink beer in the sun..... |
October Ooops!
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:35:54 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Thus temporarily secured from moving, and no longer pressing up against the piling, we set about to getting our auxiliary engine started. We were not seriously down in our capacity, but our voltage, apparently,. was just a bit low for the high revs needed from the starter. Running the Honda generator for just a couple of minutes, due to the power being fed to the batteries at a much higher voltage, the engine started right up. Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions. 1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery? Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated. 2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda generator at hand, so you're a step up there. The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting battery would have probably given a quicker start. But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine starter? I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3 and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode. Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.) Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps. I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected without frying the starter, but never tried that. With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list. After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a "plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system. Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low battery" alarm. Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you already have this on you list. BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities. Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby. And as Frankie sang, you did it your way. --Vic |
October Ooops!
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:46:22 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote: Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions. 1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery? Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated. Welcome back Vic. Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an emergency start situation. I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK. |
October Ooops!
Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:46:22 -0500, Vic Smith wrote: Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions. 1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery? Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated. Welcome back Vic. Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an emergency start situation. I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK. Agreed. I'm thinking grounds. But then that's a safe bet most of the time... :) -- Richard Lamb |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Hi, Y'all,
I'm concatenating some responses here; actually, I've been thinking about getting back to y'all on this particular point due to musings on the circumstance. So, my thoughts/comments are in-line... "Vic Smith" wrote in message ... Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions. 1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery? Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated. I actually do have that, as well as a separate windlass battery. These are separate from the house battery, on a combiner (separate charging path, with those two having the combiner). I replaced the entire battery system (house, windlass, starter) when I got the new inverter/charger. 2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda generator at hand, so you're a step up there. Heh. The Russian thread made me want to note that while I wasn't being OCD, I *did* have the one-cylinder starting machine :{)) I don't believe that compressed air would work for Perky, as he's not set up for it, and I can't imagine a flywheel start, as there's no place to get in front of the engine (let alone that it's not set up for that, either). The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting battery would have probably given a quicker start. We had ample juice, with our 880AH bank at about 80-90% (don't recall precisely at the moment). It was the voltage which was the issue. Literally in a minute or so from starting the Honda, as the voltage leaped, it cranked much faster, and started immediately. When I replaced this starter (and bought the spare solenoid cuz it was affordable vs another entire starter), my old one was making the same symptoms. Slow start, relatively slow (by comparison to the new) rotations. and "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an emergency start situation. I have that, too, with the typical 1-2-all-off switch (new when I did my '04-'07 refit), and our meter draws from that. So, I don't have separate feeds to the start and house banks, but the above switch functions that way. My meter is a TriMetric multi-tool thing which allows me to see many different pieces of information about the history, state and health of the battery. However, you set it up to match the size and age of the battery involved, and since in my case that's the house, I'm not sure it's fully meaningful, other than volts, WRT the smaller batteries. The T-Ms are expensive enough that I'm not going to install one for the start/windlass system. Further, while my electrician help at the time (svhotwire.com's John Gambill) assured me that this setup was appropriate, I'm wondering if I shouldn't install an isolator (I think is the term) which would make the charging circuit to the start/windlass batteries behave by itself. I'm not adequate in charging system design to know if that's right, or even needed against what I have now. More research is needed (sorry, Bob!) before I'm comfortable making a switch (pardon the expression) or addendum. I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK. Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter... I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over? You'll recall the Dr. Diesel debacle (FWIW, I encountered yet another similarly "satisfied" customer here in Marsh Harbour this year - except that his was an engine, so the screwing got extremely more expensive, but with all the same bells and whistles as mine - same bait-and-switch, same eventual much higher cost, same "he's got my parts so I'm stuck" and all the rest...), so you know that I have fresh injectors. Indeed, my fuel usage rate has dropped nicely since those were installed. So, I'm wondering about whether I need another starter when I return to the states in April for a wedding, and whether I should get one for spares. They're monstrous things, unlike a similarly horsed Yanmar, which entire starter isn't much bigger than my solenoid, so not only cost is of concern here... and "CaveLamb" wrote in message m... Agreed. I'm thinking grounds. But then that's a safe bet most of the time... :) -- Richard Lamb That's certainly worth pursuit/examination. Not a big deal, as there aren't very many places I'd have to fiddle with to establish that. I'm reminded of my troubleshooting my masthead, foredeck light fixture a couple of years ago. Turned out it wasn't bulbs, and though I had voltage there, I had no power; it was a loose ground in the electrical cabinet. Turn the screw, and it all worked again :{)) Back to Vic: But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine starter? I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3 and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode. Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.) Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps. I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected without frying the starter, but never tried that. With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list. After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a "plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system. I'm not sure of the amps needed to make our starter spin happily. I know that our new (2007) starter spun enormously faster than the one it replaced. This one's starting (pardon the expression!) to sound a bit like that, other than in an already-hot start. Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low battery" alarm. Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you already have this on you list. Not a low battery at all, see above... However, we do have several low battery alarms aboard, not the least of which is the TriMetric, which shows us actual AH down, as well as % of charge, plus days since equalization, days since charged, hi and low points in voltage history and a bunch of other stuff. BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities. Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby. And as Frankie sang, you did it your way. Heh. Thanks. I think we may have flattened the learning curve just a bit :{)) And, it's been "my way" my entire life - if I didn't want to do it, mostly I just didn't :{)) It also probably contributes to my somewhat-evenhanded responses to some of the kicks and digs I get. Like, (this one's for you, Bob, since I know you advocate it) "**** you, too" if it's nasty, or self-examination and agreement with some of the more benevolent commentary on our misadventures. Like the old saying, "you've not been around if you've not been aground," I'm just much more willing to admit them :{)) Thanks, y'all, for the ideas and commentary. I HAVE been proven educable :{)) L8R Skip, working on the October Ooohs! coming post to follow later (not today!) -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog "And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you are quite alone on a wide, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin --Vic |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:24 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Until confident that all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK. Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter... Starters and solenoids are good for literally thousands of starts unless there are secondary issues like water ingress or hard starting/cranking. Engines like to be run once in awhile. I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over? If it's turning over at all it should fire on on the second or third rotation if everything else is in good condition, especially in warm weather. Failure to start on slow cranking can be an indication of low compression, most often because of valves or rings. You could also be losing the prime on the injection pump if you have a small air leak in the fuel delivery plumbing. That would result in longer cranking waiting for the air bubble to work its way through. Whatever the problem is, you need to spend more time resolving it. Meanwhile I'd be starting the engine for a little while every day. |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Skip: Take some fotos of your wire connections at battery bank, buss, every where the cable to your starter has connections, and at your starter. Also include foto of your ground side from starter to negative earth on buss/battery. Then psot for peer review somplace low tech ppl like myself can view. A pic is worth 1000s of condemnations. Boob. |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:24 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Hi, Y'all, I'm concatenating some responses here; actually, I've been thinking about getting back to y'all on this particular point due to musings on the circumstance. So, my thoughts/comments are in-line... "Vic Smith" wrote in message .. . Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions. 1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery? Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated. I actually do have that, as well as a separate windlass battery. These are separate from the house battery, on a combiner (separate charging path, with those two having the combiner). I replaced the entire battery system (house, windlass, starter) when I got the new inverter/charger. 2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda generator at hand, so you're a step up there. Heh. The Russian thread made me want to note that while I wasn't being OCD, I *did* have the one-cylinder starting machine :{)) I don't believe that compressed air would work for Perky, as he's not set up for it, and I can't imagine a flywheel start, as there's no place to get in front of the engine (let alone that it's not set up for that, either). The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting battery would have probably given a quicker start. We had ample juice, with our 880AH bank at about 80-90% (don't recall precisely at the moment). It was the voltage which was the issue. Literally in a minute or so from starting the Honda, as the voltage leaped, it cranked much faster, and started immediately. When I replaced this starter (and bought the spare solenoid cuz it was affordable vs another entire starter), my old one was making the same symptoms. Slow start, relatively slow (by comparison to the new) rotations. and "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an emergency start situation. I have that, too, with the typical 1-2-all-off switch (new when I did my '04-'07 refit), and our meter draws from that. So, I don't have separate feeds to the start and house banks, but the above switch functions that way. My meter is a TriMetric multi-tool thing which allows me to see many different pieces of information about the history, state and health of the battery. However, you set it up to match the size and age of the battery involved, and since in my case that's the house, I'm not sure it's fully meaningful, other than volts, WRT the smaller batteries. The T-Ms are expensive enough that I'm not going to install one for the start/windlass system. Further, while my electrician help at the time (svhotwire.com's John Gambill) assured me that this setup was appropriate, I'm wondering if I shouldn't install an isolator (I think is the term) which would make the charging circuit to the start/windlass batteries behave by itself. I'm not adequate in charging system design to know if that's right, or even needed against what I have now. More research is needed (sorry, Bob!) before I'm comfortable making a switch (pardon the expression) or addendum. I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK. Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter... I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over? You'll recall the Dr. Diesel debacle (FWIW, I encountered yet another similarly "satisfied" customer here in Marsh Harbour this year - except that his was an engine, so the screwing got extremely more expensive, but with all the same bells and whistles as mine - same bait-and-switch, same eventual much higher cost, same "he's got my parts so I'm stuck" and all the rest...), so you know that I have fresh injectors. Indeed, my fuel usage rate has dropped nicely since those were installed. So, I'm wondering about whether I need another starter when I return to the states in April for a wedding, and whether I should get one for spares. They're monstrous things, unlike a similarly horsed Yanmar, which entire starter isn't much bigger than my solenoid, so not only cost is of concern here... and "CaveLamb" wrote in message om... Agreed. I'm thinking grounds. But then that's a safe bet most of the time... :) -- Richard Lamb That's certainly worth pursuit/examination. Not a big deal, as there aren't very many places I'd have to fiddle with to establish that. I'm reminded of my troubleshooting my masthead, foredeck light fixture a couple of years ago. Turned out it wasn't bulbs, and though I had voltage there, I had no power; it was a loose ground in the electrical cabinet. Turn the screw, and it all worked again :{)) Back to Vic: But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine starter? I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3 and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode. Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.) Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps. I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected without frying the starter, but never tried that. With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list. After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a "plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system. I'm not sure of the amps needed to make our starter spin happily. I know that our new (2007) starter spun enormously faster than the one it replaced. This one's starting (pardon the expression!) to sound a bit like that, other than in an already-hot start. Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low battery" alarm. Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you already have this on you list. Not a low battery at all, see above... However, we do have several low battery alarms aboard, not the least of which is the TriMetric, which shows us actual AH down, as well as % of charge, plus days since equalization, days since charged, hi and low points in voltage history and a bunch of other stuff. BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities. Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby. And as Frankie sang, you did it your way. Heh. Thanks. I think we may have flattened the learning curve just a bit :{)) And, it's been "my way" my entire life - if I didn't want to do it, mostly I just didn't :{)) It also probably contributes to my somewhat-evenhanded responses to some of the kicks and digs I get. Like, (this one's for you, Bob, since I know you advocate it) "**** you, too" if it's nasty, or self-examination and agreement with some of the more benevolent commentary on our misadventures. Like the old saying, "you've not been around if you've not been aground," I'm just much more willing to admit them :{)) Thanks, y'all, for the ideas and commentary. I HAVE been proven educable :{)) L8R Skip, working on the October Ooohs! coming post to follow later (not today!) Skip, Do one thing. 1. Tell us what batteries are connected to the motor when you tried to start it. 2. Take a multi-meter and check the voltage at the battery terminals when NOT cranking the motor. Take the voltage at the starter terminals. Is it the same? 3. What is this voltage. 4. Measure voltage at battery terminals and then while measuring try to start motor - what voltage did the batteries drop to? 5. Do the same thing at the starter terminals. Is battery voltage the same as at batteries when starting? A. If the battery voltage and the voltage at the starter terminals isn't essentially the same then you have a bad connection. B. If battery voltage drops significantly then you do not have sufficient battery capacity - either because the batteries aren't sufficiently charged or because of condition of batteries. By the way, I hate to tell you but your fancy battery meter isn't as accurate as a simple volt meter and costs considerably more. It is not accurate either :-) It isn't very accurate either - because of the Peukert Effect (you can google that) the meter can never do better then approximate the battery charge. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
October Ooops!
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:44:10 -0400, WaIIy wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:20:29 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok wrote: On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:54:30 -0400, WaIIy wrote: On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT), Bob wrote: The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual (crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine. Cheers, Bruce Darn, that is redunant..... Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means replace stuff. I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system. I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch means REPLACE stuff before failure. I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3 larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story.............. stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or your motor started. Boob I'm glad to see you're starting to use your real name. Gosh, you replaced a couple of cables. Great story. And what have you done this week? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) From reading your posts for some time now, I'm a bit surprised you would support such an obvious poseur. The guy discusses a piece of work that he had done; you disparage that, I simply enquired "what have you done?" What support? Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Minor update...
We have a charging issue. I have to do more investigation, but something's not quite kosher between the start and house batteries. Or, we may simply have a dead (despite only 14 months old) start battery cell, as it's not nearly up to voltage. I'm going to wait until I get in a bit more settled water before digging into it; after I figure out what's going on with the charging circuit(s) I'll do the other checks suggested in the thread. Included in them will be stress tests, as I have one of those tools, to see how the various batteries (4xL16HC, plus two large start for the engine and windlass) do. More, L8R :{)) Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
So...
Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back. Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter. Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops. Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat. Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so hot. So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge... More as I know more. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... So... Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back. Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter. Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops. Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat. Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so hot. So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge... More as I know more. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." Check the impedance (resistance) on your battery selector switch. Wilbur Hubbard |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:09:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message ... So... Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back. Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter. Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops. Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat. Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so hot. So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge... More as I know more. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." Check the impedance (resistance) on your battery selector switch. Wilbur Hubbard Impedance is a measurement used with alternating current, i.e.: Impedance: (Symbol Z) A measure of the total opposition to current flow in an alternating current circuit, made up of two components, ohmic resistance and reactance, and usually represented in complex notation as Z = R + iX, where R is the ohmic resistance and X is the reactance. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:09:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: "Flying Pig" wrote in message ... So... Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back. Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter. Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops. Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat. Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so hot. So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge... More as I know more. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." Check the impedance (resistance) on your battery selector switch. Wilbur Hubbard Impedance is a measurement used with alternating current, i.e.: Impedance: (Symbol Z) A measure of the total opposition to current flow in an alternating current circuit, made up of two components, ohmic resistance and reactance, and usually represented in complex notation as Z = R + iX, where R is the ohmic resistance and X is the reactance. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) Considering all the crap and miles of wiring Skippy has installed, including heavy duty inverters, in his boat it wouldn't surprise me a bit if his battery selector switch's impedance can be measured. But, you are correct. Resistance is the correct term for DC current. Wilbur Hubbard |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:12:01 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: So... Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back. Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter. Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops. According to Trojan 6.37/12.73 is the fully charged Open Circuit voltage. Operating the starter causes system voltage to drop by 4 volts, i.e., from 12.73 to 8.73 (I assume during the cranking period) and after this test the engine wouldn't start (again I assume because of low cranking speed, not fuel starvation). You do not state how much battery capacity is connected to the starter but if you were connecting to the house battery bank and this voltage drop occurred then your house batteries are knackered. If you have a single battery connected to the starting circuit then I would have to ask "WHY?". The proper set-up is with a switch allowing the starter to be connected to either the house or starting batteries. The house batteries are used normally but if they fail then you can switch to your fully charged starting batteries to start the engine (and hopefully charge your house batteries). Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat. Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so hot. So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge... More as I know more. L8R Skip Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Hiya,
Thanks for all the useful discussion, as well as some off-list comms. Just a quickie before I dive into it with a pro today: I also measured the resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts; the switch has no resistance issues as questioned in one of the responses. More later as I have something more conclusive... L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
*I also measured the resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts; the switch has no resistance issues as questioned in one of the responses. Skip This is why skip has problmes.... how does he kno why there are no resistance issues ? Please notice his vague, abstract, equivocal language in most of his previous posts.... A person can fumble **** a fubar system, touch some multi meter probes and not have the foggiest notion whats going on but at least they are touching stuff with an instrument so its gotta be doing somting.... and then like a ray of light from heaven proclaim..................... there are not resistance issues ! Eureka! boB |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Hi, Gang,
Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung at me along the way, here's how it all worked out: I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda eu2000i). All charging sources are in good condition. As we nearly never run the diesel, the other three are the usual charging sources. All connections were inspected and tightened, and if it looked warranted, removed first and burnished before replacement. Some of the connection points were able to be tightened further than they were. At least one of them, despite no movement possible without fear of breaking either lugs, mounting posts or wire, proved to be useful, as the battery thingy (how's *that* for scientific) discussed at length here in the past, designed to pulse the battery to minimize or even cure sulfation, has not winked at me for as long as I can remember - it does, now. So, either at the battery end or the positive charging buss, tightening helped. Despite that, nothing seemed to improve matters. Removing the wiring from the switch, and then metering between the posts in all positions either had no resistance or infinite resistance, as appropriate. However, it was noted that the switch was miswired during installation by my electrical contractor of the time, name left out to protect the innocent. The start lead was on the start battery post. Thus, it was never able to be isolated from the starter battery. It was moved to the common, allowing isolation when in "off" or "House" mode. In "all" or "Start" mode, energy would be delivered to the starter through the starter battery, or through the house battery if in "House" or "all" mode. That wasn't a full cure. The engine would start on the house bank, but only with a shot of WD40 as encouragement. Of course, once started, it was much more compliant with starting in subsequent attempts without that boost. Still, it was reluctant to start on the house or start battery alone. Off comes the starter. Turns out that the brushes COULD stand replacement. More significantly, the ground straps to them are held in by self-tapping screws. One of them was loose. New brushes and a replacement, longer (to overcome the stripped tapered end of the loose one) machine screw assured a better connection - "Dad's Chandlery" to the rescue! While I had it out, I got the numbers off it so I can get a replacement when I'm back in the states. I'll save the one I have as a spare, but not before I have the commutator turned. Like every brushed motor, there was some lip on it, but, significantly, not all the way around. The one with the loose screw likely caused it to stop in the same place each time and, as well, not have as much energy at that part on the commutator during startup (of the starter), thus preventing as much wear as the rest of it... Sure enough, the starter was a great deal happier after reinstallation. Voltage drops during cranking (fuel off) were the same at the batteries and the starter, so the wiring was OK. However, a mere "clunk" happened when trying to start on just the start battery; the house bank turned it somewhat slowly. That's what led to the exercise with the switch, shown above out of sequence in the troubleshooting. Well, dang. Pry open the non-serviceable cells and stick hydrometer in the plenty-full cells. Sure enough, a bad cell. Didn't bother to do all of them :{)) I cringe to think of what my still-under-warranty (of course, not here) 80 buck battery will cost to replace. The guy I sold my spare injectors to also had to replace his, so I expect I'll be in for a similar 300 or so for mine. My electrical wizard (Andrew, if you're ever in the Abacos, is widely recognized as the guy who, if there's a wire attached to it, can figure it out, fix it, or make it work, if it's not destroyed) assures me that a new battery will easily start this engine. So, back to NAPA/AID tomorrow for another battery. Meanwhile, I've had an annoying drip of diesel fuel at a banjo bolt in the injector pump. Not a flow, not a squirt, but a drip, over time. Analysis has it that is why a shot of WD40 let it start immediately - it had depressurized, and turning it over to start took longer than it should to bring it back to full pressure. Finding crush washers for this banjo bolt will be interesting, but our dear friends who've just sold their boat finally used copper washers instead of the aluminum ones when they faced about the same problem in the Caribbean; perhaps, even though there are currently no aluminum washers to be found, I can find some copper ones. I've previously tightened that bolt to the degree that I feared I'd do one of my Sampson routines and break it, as I have done on so many other bolts; I'd be really in it if that happened, so didn't push it. I'm sure that will help. As a final test, we ran the battery down (it had shown slap full all day, as it started full when we began, and the wind and sun kept up with the loads we had on) by running the microwave and all the other AC devices we could find, and all the DC loads we could turn on. When the voltage had dropped to 12, and the amphours were down over 50, we energized the alternator, pushed back in the fuel shutoff (enabling fuel), and hit the start button. Vrroooom! on "both" "Clunk" on the starter battery (no surprise). RRRVrroooom! on the house bank. Andrew first did all the things I'd already done, and was beginning to get frustrated, despite allowing that he had a similar patience quotient to mine. It was then that the starter came off, the connections were tightened to the degree I was concerned for breakage and, significantly, the starter lead moved to the common point from the start battery point on the switch. Those were the differences from what I'd already done. 2.5 hours, including doing the checks I'd done, and he was outta here (not counting the time he went back ashore to pay some bills while I went to NAPA for the brushes, of which I got two sets so can do this again if I need to). In all this, he was cheerful, instructive (not minding my looking over his shoulder to learn along the way) and accepting of, or needing, my help. I confess to having dug out my remote starter switch as it got a bit tiresome to run up and down the companionway for each start sequence, but that aside, we got along famously. So, absent only the final proof that the new, presumed outrageously expensive, starter battery will, in fact, start the diesel, I'd say we'd put that one to bed. I'll do some further testing later by intentionally letting the battery bank get low and seeing if it will start that way, before we head south. I've got a bunch of to-do's so I'll be occupied for a few days, anyway. However, given the drain we put on as a test, I will be astounded if it doesn't kick right off. Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer! L8R, y'all! Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in boats-or *with* boats. In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not." |
Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:13:45 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Hiya, Thanks for all the useful discussion, as well as some off-list comms. Just a quickie before I dive into it with a pro today: I also measured the resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts; the switch has no resistance issues as questioned in one of the responses. More later as I have something more conclusive... L8R Skip One additional comment. From your post of the 26th: Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops. However, Trojan recommends that for an accurate assessment of a battery that it be fully charged and then "left idle" (no charging or discharging) for at least 6 and preferable 24 hours. They recommend completely disconnecting the battery; charging is less then 70% of full charge; left idle for a time period and then the voltage checked. A fully charged battery will be 6.37/12.73 VDC 90% 6.31/12/62 80% 6.25/12.5 70% 6.19/12.37 60% 6.12/12.24 50% 6.05/12.10 However, these figures are predicated on the battery having electrolyte with specific gravity of 1.277. I find that often times, particularly in hot climates, the battery sellers will use an electrolyte of slightly under the recommended S.G. in compensation for what they believe will be higher then normal operating temperatures. In closing, your symptoms are exactly what my old pickup exhibits, low cranking speed and what appears to be excessive voltage drop while cranking.... In my case it is an old, wore out, battery that is due replacement. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Flying Pig wrote:
Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer! L8R, y'all! Skip Congrats, Skip! -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Hi, Gang, Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung at me along the way, here's how it all worked out: I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda eu2000i). All charging sources are in good condition. As we nearly never run the diesel, the other three are the usual charging sources. All connections were inspected and tightened, and if it looked warranted, removed first and burnished before replacement. Some of the connection points were able to be tightened further than they were. At least one of them, despite no movement possible without fear of breaking either lugs, mounting posts or wire, proved to be useful, as the battery thingy (how's *that* for scientific) discussed at length here in the past, designed to pulse the battery to minimize or even cure sulfation, has not winked at me for as long as I can remember - it does, now. So, either at the battery end or the positive charging buss, tightening helped. Despite that, nothing seemed to improve matters. Removing the wiring from the switch, and then metering between the posts in all positions either had no resistance or infinite resistance, as appropriate. However, it was noted that the switch was miswired during installation by my electrical contractor of the time, name left out to protect the innocent. The start lead was on the start battery post. Thus, it was never able to be isolated from the starter battery. It was moved to the common, allowing isolation when in "off" or "House" mode. In "all" or "Start" mode, energy would be delivered to the starter through the starter battery, or through the house battery if in "House" or "all" mode. That wasn't a full cure. The engine would start on the house bank, but only with a shot of WD40 as encouragement. Of course, once started, it was much more compliant with starting in subsequent attempts without that boost. Still, it was reluctant to start on the house or start battery alone. Off comes the starter. Turns out that the brushes COULD stand replacement. More significantly, the ground straps to them are held in by self-tapping screws. One of them was loose. New brushes and a replacement, longer (to overcome the stripped tapered end of the loose one) machine screw assured a better connection - "Dad's Chandlery" to the rescue! While I had it out, I got the numbers off it so I can get a replacement when I'm back in the states. I'll save the one I have as a spare, but not before I have the commutator turned. Like every brushed motor, there was some lip on it, but, significantly, not all the way around. The one with the loose screw likely caused it to stop in the same place each time and, as well, not have as much energy at that part on the commutator during startup (of the starter), thus preventing as much wear as the rest of it... Sure enough, the starter was a great deal happier after reinstallation. Voltage drops during cranking (fuel off) were the same at the batteries and the starter, so the wiring was OK. However, a mere "clunk" happened when trying to start on just the start battery; the house bank turned it somewhat slowly. That's what led to the exercise with the switch, shown above out of sequence in the troubleshooting. Well, dang. Pry open the non-serviceable cells and stick hydrometer in the plenty-full cells. Sure enough, a bad cell. Didn't bother to do all of them :{)) I cringe to think of what my still-under-warranty (of course, not here) 80 buck battery will cost to replace. The guy I sold my spare injectors to also had to replace his, so I expect I'll be in for a similar 300 or so for mine. My electrical wizard (Andrew, if you're ever in the Abacos, is widely recognized as the guy who, if there's a wire attached to it, can figure it out, fix it, or make it work, if it's not destroyed) assures me that a new battery will easily start this engine. So, back to NAPA/AID tomorrow for another battery. Meanwhile, I've had an annoying drip of diesel fuel at a banjo bolt in the injector pump. Not a flow, not a squirt, but a drip, over time. Analysis has it that is why a shot of WD40 let it start immediately - it had depressurized, and turning it over to start took longer than it should to bring it back to full pressure. Finding crush washers for this banjo bolt will be interesting, but our dear friends who've just sold their boat finally used copper washers instead of the aluminum ones when they faced about the same problem in the Caribbean; perhaps, even though there are currently no aluminum washers to be found, I can find some copper ones. I've previously tightened that bolt to the degree that I feared I'd do one of my Sampson routines and break it, as I have done on so many other bolts; I'd be really in it if that happened, so didn't push it. I'm sure that will help. My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine? 40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings. As a final test, we ran the battery down (it had shown slap full all day, as it started full when we began, and the wind and sun kept up with the loads we had on) by running the microwave and all the other AC devices we could find, and all the DC loads we could turn on. When the voltage had dropped to 12, and the amphours were down over 50, we energized the alternator, pushed back in the fuel shutoff (enabling fuel), and hit the start button. Vrroooom! on "both" "Clunk" on the starter battery (no surprise). RRRVrroooom! on the house bank. Andrew first did all the things I'd already done, and was beginning to get frustrated, despite allowing that he had a similar patience quotient to mine. It was then that the starter came off, the connections were tightened to the degree I was concerned for breakage and, significantly, the starter lead moved to the common point from the start battery point on the switch. Those were the differences from what I'd already done. 2.5 hours, including doing the checks I'd done, and he was outta here (not counting the time he went back ashore to pay some bills while I went to NAPA for the brushes, of which I got two sets so can do this again if I need to). In all this, he was cheerful, instructive (not minding my looking over his shoulder to learn along the way) and accepting of, or needing, my help. I confess to having dug out my remote starter switch as it got a bit tiresome to run up and down the companionway for each start sequence, but that aside, we got along famously. So, absent only the final proof that the new, presumed outrageously expensive, starter battery will, in fact, start the diesel, I'd say we'd put that one to bed. I'll do some further testing later by intentionally letting the battery bank get low and seeing if it will start that way, before we head south. I've got a bunch of to-do's so I'll be occupied for a few days, anyway. However, given the drain we put on as a test, I will be astounded if it doesn't kick right off. Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while, Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer! L8R, y'all! Skip Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 18:09:57 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote: Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while, He's in the Bahamas and everything has to be shipped in from the US. |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Thanks for all the commentary and helpful hints. Aside from the pain in the wallet, my only niggle left is those banjo bolt crush washers. Fixing that will no doubt help, along with keeping my engine pan dryer! Clearly you've made some progress but don't stop working on it until it starts the first time, every time. Using WD40 or any other starting fluid is a really bad practice. |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
Doing a bit of cat'ing he
"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message ... .. My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine? 40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings. Yes, that's (CV - actually, I think it's CAV) what we have, but it's a 4-154. However, I leapt to the conclusion that they were aluminum, as that's the case on the return banjos on the injectors. None the less, AID/NAPA doesn't have them. I'm trying local boat yards next, and a buddy boat next to me in the harbor thinks he might have them for his 4-236; maybe they're the right size. Why an "expensive" starter battery? Why not a common ordinary truck or auto battery. Wet cell, just check it once in a while, $218 for a marine 1000CCA, see response about expensive in the Bahamas earlier. I have a size limitation for where it can mount of 6.75" depth (height and length don't matter) which makes truck batteries problematic, even if they did (when I go to NAPA) have adapters to make a screw post. However, I'm checking that out before I give up and cough up for a marine one... and... "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... Clearly you've made some progress but don't stop working on it until it starts the first time, every time. Using WD40 or any other starting fluid is a really bad practice. Ya, I know. Just a test at the time. I'm intentionally running down the house bank (yet to go get one of those expensive start batteries); so far it's kicked right off at 80, 120, and 160AH down - the only time of spritzing was that single instance. That was just to see if it would turn over at all... Meanwhile, for when I get back to the states, where's the best price on a new (I'm keeping the old one for a spare) for a Delco 1107587 or equivalent? Most of what I see is much smaller, with external (not as big on the inside, therefore, meaning fewer horses and less life, as far as I'm concerned) bolts rather than internal like the above... L8R, yall Skip, off to find another oil evacuation drill-driven pump as mine has quit and the new spare I had doesn't work at all. -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:39:38 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: Hi, Gang, Trying to insert info to either satisfy curiosiity or squelch criticsims from the many barbs (and also to fill in blanks on the helpful ones) slung at me along the way, here's how it all worked out: I have an 880 AH house bank and a Group 27 marine deep-discharge starting battery. They are connected to a Blue Sea switch. I have 4 total sources of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda eu2000i). You should use a "starting" battery for your starting battery, not a deep-cycle. A starting battery has many thin plates, allowing it to deliver the very high currents required for starting, but making it less tolerant of frequent deep discharges. A deep-cycle battery has fewer thick plates which makes it much more tolerant of deep discharge cycles, but, less able to deliver the large currents required for starting. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
In article ,
Bruce in Bangkok wrote: My understanding was that you had a 4 cylinder Perkins engine? 40107/4-108?? If so then you have a CV fuel injection system which uses solid copper washers under banjo fittings. Which can be reused, if you just re-anneal them.... |
Resolution Starting issues inside October Ooops!
*I have 4 total sources of potential charging - Wind, Solar, 110A alternator and 70A inverter charger (energized by shore power, very rarely at a dock, or through a Honda eu2000i). Skip I have diagnosed your problme and offer a recomendation: I had no idea you had so much **** on your boat Skip. 1) Git rid of the wind and solar and inverter and all the wire/ connections/switches magic computer board regulators associated. 2) Increase your house bank to 2000 Ah. 3) Get a dedicated hard wired generator. (I think a CAT 3406 would be sized apprpreatly for your needs. add sarcasam as needed) The reason you have so many problmes is cause you have so many recreational electrical systems on board. I wont even ask about your refer/computer/home entertainment system/ dishwahser/blender/ microwave systems and fubar switching mechanisms...... 4) Rip all your chargin systems out! Get a real generator end of story.In other words go get a nice 10 year old 70 foot gulf shrimper. youll pay about 200,000 after a little refit. Then you can have all the do dads you want. **** you can light up the sky like the rest of those gom gooks. Your attempting to make a sailing yacht into a 2500 sq ft ranch home and now your finding just how difficult balancing complex systems can become. K.I.S.S. BoB PS CHrist you must enjoy wasting your life f-ing around with non- necessary tasks :/ Try volunteering someplace to make this a better world instead of wasting your life chasing down endless self created bugs. |
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