October Ooops!
 

The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on
in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual
(crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine.

Cheers,

Bruce

Darn, that is redunant.....

Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in
keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means
replace stuff.

I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system.

I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch
means REPLACE stuff before failure.
I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had
been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it
would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good
thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover
that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3
larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was
originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two
splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story..............
stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that
electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or
your motor started.

Boob

October Ooops!
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:


The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on
in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual
(crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine.

Cheers,

Bruce

Darn, that is redunant.....

Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in
keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means
replace stuff.

I'm not sure why the Russian equipment was built that way but nearly
all of the engines, powering cranes, bulldozers, etc., which were
built in the middle 70's were equipped that way. I had assumed, but
don't know for sure, that the engines might have been turned out by a
plant that also built for the military, in which case perhaps it made
sense.

I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system.

I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch
means REPLACE stuff before failure.
I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had
been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it
would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good
thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover
that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3
larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was
originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two
splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story..............
stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that
electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or
your motor started.

Boob

Certainly, in your case, it was time to replace the cables but the
basic reason was that the cables weren't installed correctly in the
first place.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

October Ooops!
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:54:30 -0400, WaIIy wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:


The ultimate would be the Russian heavy equipment engines I worked on
in Indonesia. they had three starting systems - electric, manual
(crank up a flywheel) and auxiliary one cylinder engine.

Cheers,

Bruce

Darn, that is redunant.....

Im not sure that much redundancy is needed. I tend to belive in
keeping systems designed well and maintained religiously. Which means
replace stuff.

I think SKip would OCD and overdose with that Russian system.

I say, keep it simple, keep it bulit proof, keep it maintained witch
means REPLACE stuff before failure.
I decided to replace the 70' of 0/2 cable for my windless. Why? it had
been on the boat since 1979. Everybody said, just leave it cause it
would cost too much money and your windless works jsut fine. Good
thing I did. After removing the cables I found two knicks in the cover
that were ozzing green powdery stuff and the cable was about 1/3
larger at the point. Im sure that happened when the cable was
originally pulled and got an unknown cut on the cover. Oh, the two
splices I found were also equally gross. Moral of story..............
stop installing doo dads and start from the foundation up. all that
electic wifi and **** wont mean squat if you cant get ur anchor up or
your motor started.

Boob


I'm glad to see you're starting to use your real name.

Gosh, you replaced a couple of cables. Great story.


And what have you done this week?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

October Ooops!
 

Boob

I'm glad to see you're starting to use your real name.

Ya i really dont care bout spelling and such as i dont care about it
when I read others post here. Im more interested in ideas than commas
and caps.

Gosh, you replaced a couple of cables. *Great story.

Ya it sure beats, I cant get my anchor up and am dragging over a pipe
line or UW cable crossing..... and have to slip it


And what have you done this week?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Fleet week in SF, CA. Loads of fun. Might take a cruise on the sailing
scow schooner ALMA or maybe jsut drink beer in the sun.....

October Ooops!
 

On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:35:54 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:



Thus temporarily secured from moving, and no longer pressing up against the
piling, we set about to getting our auxiliary engine started. We were not
seriously down in our capacity, but our voltage, apparently,. was just a bit
low for the high revs needed from the starter. Running the Honda generator
for just a couple of minutes, due to the power being fed to the batteries at
a much higher voltage, the engine started right up.


Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions.

1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery?
Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated.

2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda
generator at hand, so you're a step up there.
The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the
starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting
battery would have probably given a quicker start.
But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about
an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine
starter?
I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3
and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode.
Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the
battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the
situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house
to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.)

Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're
converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps.
I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected
without frying the starter, but never tried that.
With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick
starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list.
After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a
"plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system.

Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low
battery" alarm.
Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you
already have this on you list.

BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you
sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities.
Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby.
And as Frankie sang, you did it your way.

--Vic

October Ooops!
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:46:22 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions.

1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery?
Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated.

Welcome back Vic.

Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good
insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping
an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an
emergency start situation.

I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine
however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start
right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the
injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that
all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a
short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK.

October Ooops!
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:46:22 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions.

1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery?
Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated.

Welcome back Vic.

Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good
insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping
an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an
emergency start situation.

I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine
however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start
right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the
injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that
all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a
short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK.


Agreed.

I'm thinking grounds.
But then that's a safe bet most of the time...
:)

--

Richard Lamb

Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

Hi, Y'all,

I'm concatenating some responses here; actually, I've been thinking about
getting back to y'all on this particular point due to musings on the
circumstance.

So, my thoughts/comments are in-line...

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions.

1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery?
Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated.

I actually do have that, as well as a separate windlass battery. These are
separate from the house battery, on a combiner (separate charging path, with
those two having the combiner). I replaced the entire battery system
(house, windlass, starter) when I got the new inverter/charger.

2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda
generator at hand, so you're a step up there.

Heh. The Russian thread made me want to note that while I wasn't being OCD,
I *did* have the one-cylinder starting machine :{)) I don't believe that
compressed air would work for Perky, as he's not set up for it, and I can't
imagine a flywheel start, as there's no place to get in front of the engine
(let alone that it's not set up for that, either).

The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the
starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting
battery would have probably given a quicker start.

We had ample juice, with our 880AH bank at about 80-90% (don't recall
precisely at the moment). It was the voltage which was the issue.
Literally in a minute or so from starting the Honda, as the voltage leaped,
it cranked much faster, and started immediately.

When I replaced this starter (and bought the spare solenoid cuz it was
affordable vs another entire starter), my old one was making the same
symptoms. Slow start, relatively slow (by comparison to the new) rotations.

and

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good
insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping
an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an
emergency start situation.

I have that, too, with the typical 1-2-all-off switch (new when I did my
'04-'07 refit), and our meter draws from that. So, I don't have separate
feeds to the start and house banks, but the above switch functions that way.

My meter is a TriMetric multi-tool thing which allows me to see many
different pieces of information about the history, state and health of the
battery. However, you set it up to match the size and age of the battery
involved, and since in my case that's the house, I'm not sure it's fully
meaningful, other than volts, WRT the smaller batteries. The T-Ms are
expensive enough that I'm not going to install one for the start/windlass
system.

Further, while my electrician help at the time (svhotwire.com's John
Gambill) assured me that this setup was appropriate, I'm wondering if I
shouldn't install an isolator (I think is the term) which would make the
charging circuit to the start/windlass batteries behave by itself.

I'm not adequate in charging system design to know if that's right, or even
needed against what I have now. More research is needed (sorry, Bob!)
before I'm comfortable making a switch (pardon the expression) or addendum.

I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine
however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start
right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the
injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that
all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a
short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK.

Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are
a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do
that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter...

I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over? You'll
recall the Dr. Diesel debacle (FWIW, I encountered yet another similarly
"satisfied" customer here in Marsh Harbour this year - except that his was
an engine, so the screwing got extremely more expensive, but with all the
same bells and whistles as mine - same bait-and-switch, same eventual much
higher cost, same "he's got my parts so I'm stuck" and all the rest...), so
you know that I have fresh injectors. Indeed, my fuel usage rate has
dropped nicely since those were installed.

So, I'm wondering about whether I need another starter when I return to the
states in April for a wedding, and whether I should get one for spares.
They're monstrous things, unlike a similarly horsed Yanmar, which entire
starter isn't much bigger than my solenoid, so not only cost is of concern
here...

and

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

Agreed.

I'm thinking grounds.
But then that's a safe bet most of the time...
:)

--

Richard Lamb



That's certainly worth pursuit/examination. Not a big deal, as there aren't
very many places I'd have to fiddle with to establish that. I'm reminded of
my troubleshooting my masthead, foredeck light fixture a couple of years
ago. Turned out it wasn't bulbs, and though I had voltage there, I had no
power; it was a loose ground in the electrical cabinet. Turn the screw, and
it all worked again :{))

Back to Vic:

But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about
an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine
starter?
I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3
and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode.
Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the
battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the
situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house
to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.)

Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're
converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps.
I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected
without frying the starter, but never tried that.
With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick
starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list.
After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a
"plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system.

I'm not sure of the amps needed to make our starter spin happily. I know
that our new (2007) starter spun enormously faster than the one it replaced.
This one's starting (pardon the expression!) to sound a bit like that, other
than in an already-hot start.

Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low
battery" alarm.
Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you
already have this on you list.

Not a low battery at all, see above... However, we do have several low
battery alarms aboard, not the least of which is the TriMetric, which shows
us actual AH down, as well as % of charge, plus days since equalization,
days since charged, hi and low points in voltage history and a bunch of
other stuff.

BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you
sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities.
Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby.
And as Frankie sang, you did it your way.

Heh. Thanks. I think we may have flattened the learning curve just a bit
:{)) And, it's been "my way" my entire life - if I didn't want to do it,
mostly I just didn't :{))

It also probably contributes to my somewhat-evenhanded responses to some of
the kicks and digs I get. Like, (this one's for you, Bob, since I know you
advocate it) "**** you, too" if it's nasty, or self-examination and
agreement with some of the more benevolent commentary on our misadventures.

Like the old saying, "you've not been around if you've not been aground,"
I'm just much more willing to admit them :{))

Thanks, y'all, for the ideas and commentary. I HAVE been proven educable
:{))

L8R

Skip, working on the October Ooohs! coming post to follow later (not today!)


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"And then again, when you sit at the helm of your little ship on a
clear night, and gaze at the countless stars overhead, and realize that you
are quite alone on a wide, wide sea, it is apt to occur to you that in the
general scheme of things you are merely an insignificant speck on the
surface of the ocean; and are not nearly so important or as self-sufficient
as you thought you were. Which is an exceedingly wholesome thought, and one
that may effect a permanent change in your deportment that will be greatly
appreciated by your friends."- James S. Pitkin


--Vic

Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:24 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Until confident that
all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a
short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK.

Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are
a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do
that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter...


Starters and solenoids are good for literally thousands of starts
unless there are secondary issues like water ingress or hard
starting/cranking. Engines like to be run once in awhile.

I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over?

If it's turning over at all it should fire on on the second or third
rotation if everything else is in good condition, especially in warm
weather. Failure to start on slow cranking can be an indication of
low compression, most often because of valves or rings. You could
also be losing the prime on the injection pump if you have a small air
leak in the fuel delivery plumbing. That would result in longer
cranking waiting for the air bubble to work its way through.

Whatever the problem is, you need to spend more time resolving it.
Meanwhile I'd be starting the engine for a little while every day.

Starting issues inside October Ooops!
 

Skip:

Take some fotos of your wire connections at battery bank, buss, every
where the cable to your starter has connections, and at your starter.
Also include foto of your ground side from starter to negative earth
on buss/battery. Then psot for peer review somplace low tech ppl like
myself can view.

A pic is worth 1000s of condemnations.

Boob.