Skip:

Take some fotos of your wire connections at battery bank, buss, every
where the cable to your starter has connections, and at your starter.
Also include foto of your ground side from starter to negative earth
on buss/battery. Then psot for peer review somplace low tech ppl like
myself can view.

A pic is worth 1000s of condemnations.

Boob.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:54:24 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hi, Y'all,

I'm concatenating some responses here; actually, I've been thinking about
getting back to y'all on this particular point due to musings on the
circumstance.

So, my thoughts/comments are in-line...

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .

Skip, after reading this and responses, a couple questions.

1. Ever thought of setting up an isolated starting battery?
Some boaters keep the house and starting batteries isolated.

I actually do have that, as well as a separate windlass battery. These are
separate from the house battery, on a combiner (separate charging path, with
those two having the combiner). I replaced the entire battery system
(house, windlass, starter) when I got the new inverter/charger.

2. Given the talk about starting redundancy, you have the Honda
generator at hand, so you're a step up there.

Heh. The Russian thread made me want to note that while I wasn't being OCD,
I *did* have the one-cylinder starting machine :{)) I don't believe that
compressed air would work for Perky, as he's not set up for it, and I can't
imagine a flywheel start, as there's no place to get in front of the engine
(let alone that it's not set up for that, either).

The house batteries sucked up the juice though, and delayed the
starting. Hooking the gen to an isolated but depleted starting
battery would have probably given a quicker start.

We had ample juice, with our 880AH bank at about 80-90% (don't recall
precisely at the moment). It was the voltage which was the issue.
Literally in a minute or so from starting the Honda, as the voltage leaped,
it cranked much faster, and started immediately.

When I replaced this starter (and bought the spare solenoid cuz it was
affordable vs another entire starter), my old one was making the same
symptoms. Slow start, relatively slow (by comparison to the new) rotations.

and

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
Yes, a lot of boats have isolated starting batteries. It's good
insurance, also a switchable voltage meter is a good idea for keeping
an eye on things, and a switch for paralleling the batteries in an
emergency start situation.

I have that, too, with the typical 1-2-all-off switch (new when I did my
'04-'07 refit), and our meter draws from that. So, I don't have separate
feeds to the start and house banks, but the above switch functions that way.

My meter is a TriMetric multi-tool thing which allows me to see many
different pieces of information about the history, state and health of the
battery. However, you set it up to match the size and age of the battery
involved, and since in my case that's the house, I'm not sure it's fully
meaningful, other than volts, WRT the smaller batteries. The T-Ms are
expensive enough that I'm not going to install one for the start/windlass
system.

Further, while my electrician help at the time (svhotwire.com's John
Gambill) assured me that this setup was appropriate, I'm wondering if I
shouldn't install an isolator (I think is the term) which would make the
charging circuit to the start/windlass batteries behave by itself.

I'm not adequate in charging system design to know if that's right, or even
needed against what I have now. More research is needed (sorry, Bob!)
before I'm comfortable making a switch (pardon the expression) or addendum.

I'm still concerned that there is some other issue with Skip's engine
however. Usually if a small diesel will crank, it will also start
right away. That's assuming that compression is good and that the
injection system is not leaking air someplace. Until confident that
all possible slow starting issues were under control, I'd run it for a
short time every day just to be sure that everything was OK.

Heh. With our aversion to running the engine, and expecting that there are
a finite number of start cycles in solenoids and starters, we might not do
that. Fortunately, I do have a spare solenoid, but not a spare starter...

I presume that's the actual issue - how fast is it turning over? You'll
recall the Dr. Diesel debacle (FWIW, I encountered yet another similarly
"satisfied" customer here in Marsh Harbour this year - except that his was
an engine, so the screwing got extremely more expensive, but with all the
same bells and whistles as mine - same bait-and-switch, same eventual much
higher cost, same "he's got my parts so I'm stuck" and all the rest...), so
you know that I have fresh injectors. Indeed, my fuel usage rate has
dropped nicely since those were installed.

So, I'm wondering about whether I need another starter when I return to the
states in April for a wedding, and whether I should get one for spares.
They're monstrous things, unlike a similarly horsed Yanmar, which entire
starter isn't much bigger than my solenoid, so not only cost is of concern
here...

and

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
om...

Agreed.

I'm thinking grounds.
But then that's a safe bet most of the time...


--

Richard Lamb



That's certainly worth pursuit/examination. Not a big deal, as there aren't
very many places I'd have to fiddle with to establish that. I'm reminded of
my troubleshooting my masthead, foredeck light fixture a couple of years
ago. Turned out it wasn't bulbs, and though I had voltage there, I had no
power; it was a loose ground in the electrical cabinet. Turn the screw, and
it all worked again :{))

Back to Vic:

But aside from isolating the starting battery, have you thought about
an "instant start" device hookup between the Honda and the engine
starter?
I have a fairly cheap - maybe 50 bucks - Sears battery charger with 3
and 10 amp modes and an "instant start" mode.
Used the "quick start" a couple times on my "spare" car when the
battery went virtually dead due to a parasitic draw, when the
situation dictated. (Frigid weather, and car too far from the house
to leave the charger and extension cords out for a slow charge.)

Don't know the electrical details of the "instant start" except you're
converting 120V to 12V with lots of amps.
I ASSume it would have started my car with the battery disconnected
without frying the starter, but never tried that.
With the Honda gen at hand it might be an option for quick
starter redundancy, and worthy of entry on the project list.
After doing the electrical specs, the wiring/switching would be a
"plumbing" type design issue, ala Roger's fuel polishing system.

I'm not sure of the amps needed to make our starter spin happily. I know
that our new (2007) starter spun enormously faster than the one it replaced.
This one's starting (pardon the expression!) to sound a bit like that, other
than in an already-hot start.

Something else that comes to mind regarding critical systems is a "low
battery" alarm.
Since you were almost wrecked because of a low battery, maybe you
already have this on you list.

Not a low battery at all, see above... However, we do have several low
battery alarms aboard, not the least of which is the TriMetric, which shows
us actual AH down, as well as % of charge, plus days since equalization,
days since charged, hi and low points in voltage history and a bunch of
other stuff.

BTW, for some relief from the nitpicking and outright condemnation you
sometimes draw here, I enjoy your posts and respect your abilities.
Since you put the Pig on a reef, you've come a long way baby.
And as Frankie sang, you did it your way.

Heh. Thanks. I think we may have flattened the learning curve just a bit
:{)) And, it's been "my way" my entire life - if I didn't want to do it,
mostly I just didn't :{))

It also probably contributes to my somewhat-evenhanded responses to some of
the kicks and digs I get. Like, (this one's for you, Bob, since I know you
advocate it) "**** you, too" if it's nasty, or self-examination and
agreement with some of the more benevolent commentary on our misadventures.

Like the old saying, "you've not been around if you've not been aground,"
I'm just much more willing to admit them :{))

Thanks, y'all, for the ideas and commentary. I HAVE been proven educable
:{))

L8R

Skip, working on the October Ooohs! coming post to follow later (not today!)


Skip,

Do one thing.

1. Tell us what batteries are connected to the motor when you tried to
start it.

2. Take a multi-meter and check the voltage at the battery terminals
when NOT cranking the motor. Take the voltage at the starter
terminals. Is it the same?

3. What is this voltage.

4. Measure voltage at battery terminals and then while measuring try
to start motor - what voltage did the batteries drop to?

5. Do the same thing at the starter terminals. Is battery voltage the
same as at batteries when starting?

A. If the battery voltage and the voltage at the starter terminals
isn't essentially the same then you have a bad connection.

B. If battery voltage drops significantly then you do not have
sufficient battery capacity - either because the batteries aren't
sufficiently charged or because of condition of batteries.

By the way, I hate to tell you but your fancy battery meter isn't as
accurate as a simple volt meter and costs considerably more. It is not
accurate either :-) It isn't very accurate either - because of the
Peukert Effect (you can google that) the meter can never do better
then approximate the battery charge.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Minor update...

We have a charging issue. I have to do more investigation, but something's
not quite kosher between the start and house batteries.

Or, we may simply have a dead (despite only 14 months old) start battery
cell, as it's not nearly up to voltage.

I'm going to wait until I get in a bit more settled water before digging
into it; after I figure out what's going on with the charging circuit(s)
I'll do the other checks suggested in the thread. Included in them will be
stress tests, as I have one of those tools, to see how the various batteries
(4xL16HC, plus two large start for the engine and windlass) do.

More,

L8R :{))

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

So...

Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished
them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back.

Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's
not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being
the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the
1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a
red or black wire which could feed the starter.

Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still
connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over
starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter
positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start
immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is
that it will go in 1 or 2, tops.

Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the
norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower
(adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge,
but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full
charge, I'll get another tester and repeat.

Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to
speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute
than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test,
once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so
hot.

So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she
starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start
battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge...

More as I know more.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
So...

Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished
them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back.

Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug,
it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance;
conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies -
start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and
anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter.

Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still
connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over
starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter
positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't
start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my
experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops.

Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the
norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed
lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the
edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate
for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat.

Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop
to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full
minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the
entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the
tester, it got so hot.

So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off,
she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start
battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge...

More as I know more.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half
so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about
in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."






Check the impedance (resistance) on your battery selector switch.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:09:46 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
So...

Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished
them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back.

Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug,
it's not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance;
conclusion being the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies -
start and house), the 1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and
anyplace else there was a red or black wire which could feed the starter.

Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still
connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over
starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter
positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't
start immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my
experience is that it will go in 1 or 2, tops.

Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the
norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed
lower (adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the
edge, but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate
for full charge, I'll get another tester and repeat.

Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop
to speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full
minute than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the
entire test, once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the
tester, it got so hot.

So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off,
she starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start
battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge...

More as I know more.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half
so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about
in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter,
that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do,
and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."






Check the impedance (resistance) on your battery selector switch.

Wilbur Hubbard


Impedance is a measurement used with alternating current, i.e.:

Impedance:
(Symbol Z) A measure of the total opposition to current flow in an
alternating current circuit, made up of two components, ohmic
resistance and reactance, and usually represented in complex notation
as Z = R + iX, where R is the ohmic resistance and X is the reactance.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 17:12:01 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

So...

Checked the connections to the starter and block. Took them off, burnished
them, the posts/bolts/washers, greased them up and put them back.

Metered all the connections at posts, not lugs (if it ain't at the lug, it's
not necessarily getting where you want it). No resistance; conclusion being
the connections are good. That's at the battery(ies - start and house), the
1-2-all switch, negative and positive busses, and anyplace else there was a
red or black wire which could feed the starter.

Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still
connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over
starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter
positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start
immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is
that it will go in 1 or 2, tops.


According to Trojan 6.37/12.73 is the fully charged Open Circuit
voltage.

Operating the starter causes system voltage to drop by 4 volts, i.e.,
from 12.73 to 8.73 (I assume during the cranking period) and after
this test the engine wouldn't start (again I assume because of low
cranking speed, not fuel starvation).

You do not state how much battery capacity is connected to the starter
but if you were connecting to the house battery bank and this voltage
drop occurred then your house batteries are knackered.

If you have a single battery connected to the starting circuit then I
would have to ask "WHY?". The proper set-up is with a switch allowing
the starter to be connected to either the house or starting batteries.
The house batteries are used normally but if they fail then you can
switch to your fully charged starting batteries to start the engine
(and hopefully charge your house batteries).

Hydrometer test showed all cells within .010, only one .005 up from the
norm, and only a couple .005 down. Adjustments for temp made; showed lower
(adjusted) specific gravity than would be full charge (right on the edge,
but should have been higher), yet apparent voltage was appropriate for full
charge, I'll get another tester and repeat.

Load tested all batteries, passed with flying colors, and no voltage drop to
speak of (less than 0.1) after the test, which was more like a full minute
than the recommended 15 seconds. Meter never moved during the entire test,
once energized Had to be careful about how I handled the tester, it got so
hot.

So, that's where we are right now. When the batteries are floated off, she
starts right up. Yet, with 880AH main, and a 15M-O deep cycle start
battery, seems it also ought to go right away at, say, 80% charge...

More as I know more.

L8R

Skip
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Hiya,

Thanks for all the useful discussion, as well as some off-list comms.

Just a quickie before I dive into it with a pro today: I also measured the
resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts; the switch has no resistance issues
as questioned in one of the responses.

More later as I have something more conclusive...

L8R

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog

"Believe me, my young friend, there is *nothing*-absolutely nothing-half so
much worth doing as simply messing, messing-about-in-boats; messing about in
boats-or *with* boats.
In or out of 'em, it doesn't matter. Nothing seems really to matter, that's
the charm of it.
Whether you get away, or whether you don't; whether you arrive at your
destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get
anywhere at all, you're always busy, and you never do anything in
particular; and when you've done it there's always something else to do, and
you can do it if you like, but you'd much better not."

*I also measured the
resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts;

the switch has no resistance issues
as questioned in one of the responses.
Skip

This is why skip has problmes.... how does he kno why there are no
resistance issues ?

Please notice his vague, abstract, equivocal language in most of his
previous posts.... A person can fumble **** a fubar system, touch some
multi meter probes and not have the foggiest notion whats going on but
at least they are touching stuff with an instrument so its gotta be
doing somting.... and then like a ray of light from heaven
proclaim..................... there are not resistance issues !
Eureka!

boB

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 07:13:45 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

Hiya,

Thanks for all the useful discussion, as well as some off-list comms.

Just a quickie before I dive into it with a pro today: I also measured the
resistance at the 1-2-all switch posts; the switch has no resistance issues
as questioned in one of the responses.

More later as I have something more conclusive...

L8R

Skip

One additional comment. From your post of the 26th:

Batteries floated for a while, left to rest for an hour (loads still
connected). 6.47 or 6.48 on all 4 6V, 12.8 on the start. Turned over
starter for voltage drop test, attachment points engine ground and starter
positive lug. 4V drop! Following the voltage drop tests, it wouldn't start
immediately; I quit after 5 seconds or so of cranking, cuz my experience is
that it will go in 1 or 2, tops.

However, Trojan recommends that for an accurate assessment of a
battery that it be fully charged and then "left idle" (no charging or
discharging) for at least 6 and preferable 24 hours.

They recommend completely disconnecting the battery; charging is less
then 70% of full charge; left idle for a time period and then the
voltage checked.

A fully charged battery will be 6.37/12.73 VDC
90% 6.31/12/62
80% 6.25/12.5
70% 6.19/12.37
60% 6.12/12.24
50% 6.05/12.10

However, these figures are predicated on the battery having
electrolyte with specific gravity of 1.277.

I find that often times, particularly in hot climates, the battery
sellers will use an electrolyte of slightly under the recommended S.G.
in compensation for what they believe will be higher then normal
operating temperatures.

In closing, your symptoms are exactly what my old pickup exhibits, low
cranking speed and what appears to be excessive voltage drop while
cranking.... In my case it is an old, wore out, battery that is due
replacement.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)