On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote:

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.

And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?

How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.


I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.

No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?

I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?

Joe



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.
They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only.
Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out. As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.
Lot's of hot air.

On Dec 9, 11:45*am, "mmc" wrote:
*Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.

IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.

They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only.

I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.

Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.

We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.

Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out.

Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO. Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.

I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.

As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.

As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.

Lot's of hot air.

Is it?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" wrote:
Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than
anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.

IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.

--------

The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much
bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to
take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link
in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact.
I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk
but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real
choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that
happens. To me the second is the only option.

They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air
only.

I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.

------------

I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make
sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a
crisis. I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70%
cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop
shells than a bus load of tourists any day.
I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great.

-------------.

Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.

We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.

Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out.

Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO.

------------

I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of
change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of
trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to
problems rather than proactively to avoid them.
About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet
netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to
screw those up too.

-----------

Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.

I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.

As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.

As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.

Lot's of hot air.

Is it?

Joe
-------
Thanks for a reasonable discussion Joe.

On Dec 9, 3:27*pm, "mmc" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" wrote:

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than
anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.

*IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.

--------

The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much
bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to
take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link
in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact.
I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk
but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real
choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that
happens. To me the second is the only option.

here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out
commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences
from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for
next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like
NY Taxi cabs plates.


They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air
only.

I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.

------------

I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make
sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a
crisis.

Thats happening everywhere. The industry and rules are heavly
regulated. The FV San Jacinto drags most every day monitoring the bay
and set the rules and limits and times shrimpers can fish.

I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70%
cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop
shells than a bus load of tourists any day.
I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great.

Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.
http://www.ccatexas.org
We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They
have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays
releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the
Redfish counted in the 70's.

-------------.

Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.

We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.

Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out.

*Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO.

------------

I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of
change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of
trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to
problems rather than proactively to avoid them.

I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.
Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many
many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we
have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to
get back to the good ol days


About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet
netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to
screw those up too.


I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look
at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something
has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the
fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next
generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with
most any species.

In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the
time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever
seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000
different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in
the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped
a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into
Hector.

http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html

Joe

-----------

Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.

*I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.

*As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate

mullet before the goverment stepped in.

As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.

Lot's of hot air.

Is it?

Joe
-------
Thanks for a reasonable discussion Joe.

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:57:18 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:


I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.

When I was Oil King on my can, I once pumped about 1000 gallons of
Navy Special Fuel Oil in Naples Harbor. That's heavy black stuff.
It was discharged between us and the destroyer tender tied alongside.
When the cry went out, I got fire hose crews fore and aft to contain
the oil between ships. Then went and got some help to open the after
stack and carry the 100# sacks of black sand we stored there to the
rail. Dumped the sand on the oil and sank it. Some floated out into
the harbor though. The boatswains still had to clean up the ship
sides from bosun chairs. Lots missed liberty that day, and I was
nobody's friend.
But that's how it was done in "beautiful" Naples Harbor in 1966.
With everybody noticing.
Things sure have changed.

--Vic

On Dec 9, 7:22*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:57:18 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:



I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.

When I was Oil King on my can, I once pumped about 1000 gallons of
Navy Special Fuel Oil in Naples Harbor. *That's heavy black stuff.
It was discharged between us and the destroyer tender tied alongside.
When the cry went out, I got fire hose crews fore and aft to contain
the oil between ships. *Then went and got some help to open the after
stack and carry the 100# sacks of black sand we stored there to the
rail. *Dumped the sand on the oil and sank it. *Some floated out into
the harbor though. *The boatswains still had to clean up the ship
sides from bosun chairs. *Lots missed liberty that day, and I was
nobody's friend.
But that's how it was done in "beautiful" Naples Harbor in 1966.
With everybody noticing.
Things sure have changed.

--Vic

Damn Vic...I can see the slick
http://www.usscharleshroan.org/image...naples1966.jpg

Joe

here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out
commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences
from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for
next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like
NY Taxi cabs plates.

---------

Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step
up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce
annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-)

----------

Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.
http://www.ccatexas.org
We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They
have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays
releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the
Redfish counted in the 70's.

-------------.

You helped and that is a good thing.

------------

I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.
Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many
many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we
have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to
get back to the good ol days

-------------

Sounds like PR spin dude. None of this was done out of corporate kindness or
any sense of responsibility. The government forced the oil company to clean
up thier act and shrimpers to use TEDs. I remember the whining by a lot of
FL shrimpers when the Gov made this a law.

--------------

I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look
at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something
has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the
fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next
generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with
most any species.
---------------

Hope you're right and I'm wrong.

---------------

In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the
time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever
seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000
different types of brilliantly colored exotic fish that numbered in
the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped
a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into
Hector.

http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html

----------------

I was thier in '79 on the USS Harold E Holt (FF-1074). What an awesome
place.
One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked
a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while
discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE
hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector!
Too cool.

On Dec 11, 9:20*am, "mmc" wrote:
here that is not so, back many years ago they stopped passing out
commerical shrimp licences. Now you have to purchace that licences
from an existing owner willing to sell it. You can buy his boat for
next to nothing but the licences is worth around a 100K. Sort of like
NY Taxi cabs plates.

---------

Sounds like a good move but unless there is a reason for the shrimp to step
up production or eliminate all the other predetors, stocks will reduce
annually anyway. And the "stock" NY taxi drivers rely on is increasing! ;-)

----------

*Not me, the CCA in Corpus Christi deserves all the credit.http://www.ccatexas.org
*We just had a boat (among 100's) that could release fingerlings. They
have done a great job in bringing back the Redfish in all Texas bays
releasing 10's of millions of fish to the bays. We now have 10X the
Redfish counted in the 70's.

-------------.

*You helped and that is a good thing.

------------

I've seen much of the opposite. The oil field is about a zero
discharge industry now. When I started there often the answer was to
put drums of soap on the back deck, punch holes in them and run back
and forth through an oil slick to disperse it before anyone notices.
Remember the tar balls that use to wash up...havent seen that in many
many years now. The shrimpers have T.E.D.'s now and in Galveston we
have a huge sea turtle hatchery. But we have a very long way to go to
get back to the good ol days

-------------

Sounds like PR spin dude. None of this was done out of corporate kindness or
any sense of responsibility. The government forced the oil company to clean
up thier act and shrimpers to use TEDs. I remember the whining by a lot of
FL shrimpers when the Gov made this a law.

--------------

I guess I have a bit more faith in mankind, many smart fishermen look
at what happened to the cod stock up north and figured that something
has to be done. I'm a firm beliver that we can manage and protect the
fisheries, and if done right we can even make them better for the next
generation. It's been done with the Redfish here it can be done with
most any species.
---------------

Hope you're right and I'm wrong.

---------------

* In my life I think I've been to one place that was pristine at the
time (Diego Garcia) and it was the most awesome thing you have ever
seen. 100's of types of coral forming giant reefs covered with a 1000
different types of brilliantly colored exotic *fish that numbered in
the millions. You could catch 30 lb red snappers everytime you dropped
a hook in the water. It was heaven on earth, or hell if you ran into
Hector.

http://www.zianet.com/tedmorris/dg/hector.html

----------------

I was thier in '79 on the USS Harold E Holt (FF-1074). What an awesome
place.

I was there 80-81 USS Samuel Gompers AD-37 during the Iran hostage
ordeal.

One of our mess specialists (cooks) fished all the time and one night hooked
a 4-5' shark. He was pulling it back to the accomodation ladder while
discussing with the deck watch how to get it aboard when a FRIGGIN HUGE
hammerhead chomped it! Maybe it was Hector!
Too cool.

I never saw Hector, but swam with a ray that had about a 15 ft wing
span. A friend grabbed him by the gill and he sped off, his tail
cutting my leg (lower thigh) to the bone. For R&R the ship took a trip
to Mauritiuis just off the souther tip of Africa, a pretty cool place
as well. That was my second Wes-Pac.

This is the boat I was coxswain of at Deigo: http://www.ship564.org/boats.html
The sea scouts did a good job of fixin her up.

Joe

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote:

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.

And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?

How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.


I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.

No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?

I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?

Joe

Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the
ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you
know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury
bond sale and no one buys?

I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it
does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese
cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp.

The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is
likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy
a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and
the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the
U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication.

And round and round...

You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese
stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S.
dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in
price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the
fisherman decides to quit fishing...

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)