Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:54:40 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
wrote:

permanent liveabords who get some
wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it as a solution to cheap rent.
That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse.
Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and
then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore.

I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep
a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg.


The restrictions exist partly due to the 'bum' live aboard' issue but
apply to overnight anchoring as well. Frex, last time I was there, and I
suppose this won't change, Vero Beach's excellent anchorage is forbidden
even for a night unless you pay a fee to the city. As I said in my post,
those who live on the coast objected to me anchoring off their backyards
even for a night.

Vero's restriction was challenged in court on some grounds out of my
knowing. Vero Beach won it. That sort of restriction is rampant today. I
noted it exists only where houses are.

The commercial fleet isn't nearly as large as it was a few years ago.
Frex, the shrimpers have been reduced dramatically by Chinese shrimp
farmers. Other sorts of fishermen are reduced due to species removal or
reductions. AFAIK, the northern fishermen (like Maine) are doing ok
except for cod. The lobster fleet and those *#&#& pots seem darn
numerous to me. Then again, it's not like I ever saw it in 1980 so I
can't compare.

I chatted up a few shrimpers who clearly think they are the last of the
shrimp hunters. A business which has gone on for generations (they say)
is now dead or dying.

"slide" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:54:40 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:34:07 -0700, slide
wrote:

permanent liveabords who get some wreck of a boat and moor or anchor it
as a solution to cheap rent.
That is the crux of the problem right there. It gets worse.
Eventually the boat becomes abandoned for one reason or another, and
then it sinks, creating a navigational hazard and eyesore.

I wasn't especially talking about live-a-board. Rather a place to keep
a boat that didn't cost an arm and a leg.


The restrictions exist partly due to the 'bum' live aboard' issue but
apply to overnight anchoring as well. Frex, last time I was there, and I
suppose this won't change, Vero Beach's excellent anchorage is forbidden
even for a night unless you pay a fee to the city. As I said in my post,
those who live on the coast objected to me anchoring off their backyards
even for a night.

Vero's restriction was challenged in court on some grounds out of my
knowing. Vero Beach won it. That sort of restriction is rampant today. I
noted it exists only where houses are.

The commercial fleet isn't nearly as large as it was a few years ago.
Frex, the shrimpers have been reduced dramatically by Chinese shrimp
farmers. Other sorts of fishermen are reduced due to species removal or
reductions. AFAIK, the northern fishermen (like Maine) are doing ok except
for cod. The lobster fleet and those *#&#& pots seem darn numerous to me.
Then again, it's not like I ever saw it in 1980 so I can't compare.

I chatted up a few shrimpers who clearly think they are the last of the
shrimp hunters. A business which has gone on for generations (they say) is
now dead or dying.

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

mmc wrote:


Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote:

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.

And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?

How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.


I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.

No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?

I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?

Joe



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.
They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only.
Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out. As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.
Lot's of hot air.

On Dec 9, 11:45*am, "mmc" wrote:
*Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.

IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.

They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air only.

I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.

Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.

We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.

Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out.

Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO. Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.

I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.

As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.

As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.

Lot's of hot air.

Is it?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 11:45 am, "mmc" wrote:
Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

------------
Joe,
Protection of fish stocks is more in the above group's interest than
anyone
else's but the above are the people that make government conservation
measurements necessary.

IIRC you also mentioned that the Japs were the problem. If the govt
wanted to fine the people that caused the mullet problems than a 1000%
export tax on mullet would have been more fair, and targeted to the
cause. That 1000% tax could have been used to restock and conserve.

--------

The Japanese market was part of the proble in that instance but a much
bigger problem was the irresponsible attitude of the fishermen. If left to
take care of thier own industry, they'd have wiped out this important link
in the food chain and caused a much greater negative impact.
I also appreciate the traditional generations of professional fisher folk
but there are so many more sharing a much smaller harvest and the only real
choice is to either let them fish out the stock or step in before that
happens. To me the second is the only option.

They may support the protection but many do so with a bunch of hot air
only.

I agree.
But I've also seen and been part of re-stocking the Redfish population
here along with many others that never fish. In any group you will
find people just just take and never give back. But to be willing to
watch a fleet of mariners just die off due to Chinese farm shrimp
flooding the market, and not caring.... I find very offensive.

------------

I think this is where a "co-op" between the industry and Gov't would make
sense - come up with a plan to manage and restock before it becomes a
crisis. I watched Port Canaveral go from about 70% working port to 70%
cruise liner port and I hate it. I rather be downwind of a pile of scallop
shells than a bus load of tourists any day.
I salute you for helping with the restock! That's great.

-------------.

Not to mention that a single shrimp farms inability to control a
shrimp virus and desease could wipe out the whole natural shrimp stock
here. Gulf and white shrimp do not do well in farms and imported stock
for the farms is like rolling the dice. One discharce problem or even
one seagull dropping an infected shrimp in the Gulf could kill off a
whole species of shrimp.

We are already seeing massive blooms of asian snakehead fish, carp,
ect that are wiping out local species.

Here on Floridas Space Coast we've seen scallops, white shrimp, clams just
about wiped out.

Got news for you MMC, the whole of the worlds oceans have just about
been wiped out. So who's going to fix it? Most likely the people who
depend on it, starting with the people that make a direct living at
sea IMO.

------------

I've been in on on the water for a lot of years and have seen a lot of
change-not much of it for the good except for the Gov't stopping dumping of
trash and waste and trying to regulate the take- but usually in reaction to
problems rather than proactively to avoid them.
About who will fix it? I don't think it will happen at all. When the mullet
netters lost that livelihood? they took up crabbing and clamming and help to
screw those up too.

-----------

Someone's got to do it, and I doubt someone that could care
less about a disappearing fleet is going to be the one.

I saw something that was a direct result of over fishing returning
from Belize. For a hundred + miles a bloom of huge jelly fish. I'm
talking about everywhere you looked the water was stuffed with them
for a hundred + miles, no telling how wide the bloom was. I've never
seen anything like it before and have crossed the gulf many times
starting in the early 80's.

As I said previously, netters were working hard to decimate
mullet before the goverment stepped in.

As the goverment should have. But who paid for the boats to do the
research that determined the netting needed to stop? Most likely same
as here, the money came from fishery permits.

Lot's of hot air.

Is it?

Joe
-------
Thanks for a reasonable discussion Joe.

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote:

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.

And what if the shrimpers go broke? Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?

How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.


I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.

No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?

I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?

Joe

Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the
ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you
know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury
bond sale and no one buys?

I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it
does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese
cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp.

The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is
likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy
a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and
the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the
U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication.

And round and round...

You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese
stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S.
dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in
price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the
fisherman decides to quit fishing...

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Dec 9, 6:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:





On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote:

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.

And what if the shrimpers go broke? *Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?

How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.

No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?

I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?

Joe

Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the
ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you
know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury
bond sale and no one buys?

Independence day?

I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it
does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese
cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp.

The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is
likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy
a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and
the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the
U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication.

Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's


And round and round...

You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese
stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S.
dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in
price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the
fisherman decides to quit fishing...

I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or
Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO.

Joe


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:12:00 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:

On Dec 9, 6:55*pm, Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 08:44:35 -0800 (PST), Joe
wrote:





On Dec 9, 7:35*am, slide wrote:
mmc wrote:

Yeah, the feds are cutting red snapper fishing as of 4 Jan. Lot's of people
complaining that this is based on "bad science". They take no personal
responsibilty for stock depletions. Just take and take and screw tomorrow.
Not too long ago the state outlawed gill nets. Gill net fishermen
slaughtered tons of mullet and "by-catch" (everything else that gets caught-
almost nothing lives) in the harvest of mullet roe for the Japanese market.
Mullet had been almopst wiped out on Floridas west coast around and north of
Tampa.
We saw an almost immediate increase in food fish and in mullet which are an
important food for all carniverous species.
I felt for the netters when this happened but was happy to see that our
Gov't was doing something before the Japanese lust for anything fishy
screwed Floridans permanently.

I had nor do I have any real sympathy with the shrimpers. I would watch
as they empty their nets throwing away hundreds of (now dead) animals
which were collateral damage causalities.

Slide says as he's munching down a huge platter of fried shrimp and
oysters.

I asked them why not get into shrimp farming like the Chinese instead of
letting the crop move to overseas? Their answer always was something
like my father and grandfather and his father all did it this way....

He might also have a 185K in a boat, and not be able to buy a shrimp
farm due to loss of income to the Chinese slave labor shrimp farms.

And what if the shrimpers go broke? *Who's going to pay the 100's of
millions of dollars the shrimper pay to Parks and wildlife for
permits?

How many thousands have you paid to replenish and restock the bays
Slide?

Face it the shrimpers, and fishermen and pleasure sportsmen support
the protection of the stock more than any other group at all.

I never argued with them, but am not sad to see them go either.

Well lets hope that shrimp platter cost you a 100 bucks soon, then
maybe you might give a hoot.

No since in American mariners having jobs if the Chinese can do it
cheaper right?

I bet you drive a Toyota too huh?

Joe

Of course, the Japanese, historically, and the Chinese today, are the
ones buying all the US dollar bond issues from the Treasury... Do you
know what happens to a nation's currency when they announce a treasury
bond sale and no one buys?

Independence day?

I agree that this is somewhat of a side run around the fish but it
does serve to partially explain why the US doesn't simply ban Japanese
cars, in your example, or Chinese shrimp.

The problem is that the world is no longer a simple place. The U.S. is
likely the Chinese' largest single customer, but the Chinese also buy
a substantial amount of the U.S. debt. The U.S. buys Japanese cars and
the Japanese lease the U.S. the bases in Okinawa, which apparently the
U.S. considers important if the recent talks are any indication.

Have you heard the new name for Toyota drivers? Kamakizi's


And round and round...

You ban Chinese shrimp to help the U.S. shrimp fishermen; the Chinese
stop buying bonds, the dollar drops in value, fuel goes up, in U.S.
dollar terms, the fisherman can't afford diesel, U.S. shrimp go up in
price in the U.S. - they become a luxury food and sales drop..... the
fisherman decides to quit fishing...

I've shrimped by sail before. America did just fine before the Japs or
Chinese started buying our t notes. Selling out is not the answer IMO.

Joe

Sure, you did.... a while ago when the world was younger and things
were simpler. Back when the U.S. manufactured what they needed and
exported manufactured goods to foreign countries. Now things are
different. Call the "on line help" number and you get someone in
Banglaore, India. Go down to the WalMart store and everything is made
in one of those cheap foreign countries. Shrimp? the Thais can grow
shrimp in ponds, package them and ship them to the U.S. cheaper then
you can fish them.

Back in those days you could take your green dollar bills down to the
Mint and redeem them for gold at $35.00/oz. today gold sells for what?
Over a thousand dollars and ounce?

It is a whole different world then it was back then. and it is never
going to change back.....

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)