I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. They need 420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. They need 420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe



So much for your original, dumb idea of commerce using sail only. Do you
know how "green" huge lead/acid battery banks are? You might as well just
run a diesel for your power and admit the folly of your original plan.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Oct 30, 1:20*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...





I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. *They need *420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe

So much for your original, dumb idea of commerce using sail only. Do you
know how "green" huge lead/acid battery banks are? *You might as well just
run a diesel for your power and admit the folly of your original plan.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Battery banks can and are recycled. My goal has stayed the same Neal.

" The El Lago Coffee Company intends to show the world a model for
sustainability and profit using 100% renewable energy. We will provide
our customers with the greenest most delicious and eco-friendly
products on the market"

Also a mission statement had been online as well

"Our mission is to deliver high quality, high demand, naturally grown
products shipped in a manner that fosters brand loyalty from our
customers, and promotes environmental preservation.

With coffee being the second largest commodity traded on earth after
oil, by reducing the oil used in transport coffee, we take an
important step in reducing our dependence on middle eastern oil."

GOT IT?

Now that you know the basics let me clue you in.

1.
We want to do a job, and will have many many days at sea with ZERO
wind.
Sitting still is OK if you have nothing better to do, and plenty of
spare cash.

2.
Houston is a big port with a very busy, narrow, and long shipping
channel. I doubt the Pilot unions have a man that can tack a schooner
up the channel without a breeze.

3.
Fuel is getting expensive and oil needs to be used more wisely than
just burning it. We need to find ways of reducing demand to lower the
cost.

4. I hate dealing with diesel. After a bloody week, cut ,burned, and
then soaked in it, after a career of dealing with alge issues on just
about every boat older than 15 years old, and again the high cost, i'd
rather find a better way to have a nice long burst of energy at my
finger tips.

It's called "auxiliary power" Neal. This type of unit could also
generate the house power as well. The "primary power" and electric
generation comes from the sails.

On the issue of the bad side of acid and lead.. you have lead in your
keel and its leeching out around cedar bucket cut and chicken bone
reef as you type.

I would think a blow hard like you could see harnessing electric
power from the sails a positive thing. Nice and quiet..ect..

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Oct 30, 1:20 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...





I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. They need 420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe

So much for your original, dumb idea of commerce using sail only. Do you
know how "green" huge lead/acid battery banks are? You might as well just
run a diesel for your power and admit the folly of your original plan.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

:: Battery banks can and are recycled. My goal has stayed the same Neal.
::

That's not the point. There's the matter of disposing of the acid and
recycling the lead takes lots of heat and this heat comes from OIL. Battery
cases are made from OIL. Shipping the batteries to market takes OIL.
Displaying the batteries in a retail or wholesale outlet relies on
electricity and heat which takes, let me guess . . . OIL. So who do you
think you are fooling with your electric motor fantasy?


:: " The El Lago Coffee Company intends to show the world a model for
:: sustainability and profit using 100% renewable energy. We will provide
:: our customers with the greenest most delicious and eco-friendly
:: products on the market"

Tell me is isn't so, Joe! (thank you Sarah Palin) There is NO SUCH THING as
100% renewable energy. That's a myth. Even solar panels are not 100%
renewable running off the sun. What do you think it took to produce them in
the first place? Energy from, you got it. OIL!

:: Also a mission statement had been online as well
::
:: "Our mission is to deliver high quality, high demand, naturally grown
:: products shipped in a manner that fosters brand loyalty from our
:: customers, and promotes environmental preservation.

More pie-in-the-sky.

:: With coffee being the second largest commodity traded on earth after
:: oil, by reducing the oil used in transport coffee, we take an
:: important step in reducing our dependence on middle eastern oil."

The best way to reduce our dependence on middle eastern oil is to DRILL BABY
DRILL and do it in the USA territory.

:: GOT IT?

Nope! Conservation just won't cut it. Increasing the local supply of oil is
the only thing that will cut it.

:: Now that you know the basics let me clue you in.
::
:: 1.
:: We want to do a job, and will have many many days at sea with ZERO
:: wind.
:: Sitting still is OK if you have nothing better to do, and plenty of
:: spare cash.

That's what drove the last of the British windjammers from the seven seas.
Remember the Garthpool! She could not compete with the steamers.

:: 2.
:: Houston is a big port with a very busy, narrow, and long shipping
:: channel. I doubt the Pilot unions have a man that can tack a schooner
:: up the channel without a breeze.

So find a better port. Houston is just one of many. Find one you can
actually sail into. Port Everglades for example.

:: 3.
:: Fuel is getting expensive and oil needs to be used more wisely than
:: just burning it. We need to find ways of reducing demand to lower the
:: cost.

Yah, right. We conserve and reduce the cost and China and India buys all the
more and negates any savings. Real smart, mon!

:: 4. I hate dealing with diesel. After a bloody week, cut ,burned, and
:: then soaked in it, after a career of dealing with alge issues on just
:: about every boat older than 15 years old, and again the high cost, i'd
:: rather find a better way to have a nice long burst of energy at my
:: finger tips.

There isn't a better way or all commercial shipping would be using it
already. The only better way I can think of is the small nuclear reactors
they plan to market in Japan. These might be the ideal solution for
shipping.

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/...ar-12.17b.html

:: It's called "auxiliary power" Neal. This type of unit could also
:: generate the house power as well. The "primary power" and electric
:: generation comes from the sails.

Dream on. Do the math. It won't work.

:: On the issue of the bad side of acid and lead.. you have lead in your
:: keel and its leeching out around cedar bucket cut and chicken bone
:: reef as you type.

Can you say, "cast iron?"

:: I would think a blow hard like you could see harnessing electric
:: power from the sails a positive thing. Nice and quiet..ect..

Do the math. Not enough production capability spinning the prop and as the
prop spins the forward speed decreases. If you harnessed ALL the power of
the sails and turned it into electricity you might have enough to run your
electric motor but then you would *need* to run your motor because the sails
would not be making you go.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Oct 30, 2:27*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
On Oct 30, 1:20 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:





"Joe" wrote in message

....

I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. They need 420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe

So much for your original, dumb idea of commerce using sail only. Do you
know how "green" huge lead/acid battery banks are? You might as well just
run a diesel for your power and admit the folly of your original plan.

Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

:: Battery banks can and are recycled. My goal has stayed the same Neal.
::

That's not the point. There's the matter of disposing of the acid and
recycling the lead takes lots of heat and this heat comes from OIL. Battery
cases are made from OIL. Shipping the batteries to market takes OIL.
Displaying the batteries in a retail or wholesale outlet relies on
electricity and heat which takes, let me guess . . . OIL. So who do you
think you are fooling with your electric motor fantasy?

:: " The El Lago Coffee Company intends to show the world a model for
:: sustainability and profit using 100% renewable energy. We will provide
:: our customers with the greenest most delicious and eco-friendly
:: products on the market"

Tell me is isn't so, Joe! (thank you Sarah Palin) There is NO SUCH THING as
100% renewable energy. That's a myth. Even solar panels are not 100%
renewable running off the sun. What do you think it took to produce them in
the first place? Energy from, you got it. OIL!

Yo Numb Nuts.. God gave us the wind and the sun, it's always going to
blow and always going to shine......until the end of time.

OIL IS GREAT. I worked in the patch most my life. So if you can use a
gallon of oil to make a solar panel , our just burn it as fuel...what
is the better use of the primary source of energy?


:: Also a mission statement had been online as well
::
:: "Our mission is to deliver high quality, high demand, naturally grown
:: products shipped in a manner that fosters brand loyalty from our
:: customers, and promotes environmental preservation.

More pie-in-the-sky.

Is it? We are growing fast here without much more than word of mouth.
Lots of real sailors like a good adventure, good coffee at a price a
deckhand can afford.

:: With coffee being the second largest commodity traded on earth after
:: oil, by reducing the oil used in transport coffee, we take an
:: important step in reducing our dependence on middle eastern oil."

The best way to reduce our dependence on middle eastern oil is to DRILL BABY
DRILL and do it in the USA territory.

Thats the fastest way. Is it the best long tern smart and stratigic
way?

:: GOT IT?

Nope! Conservation just won't cut it. Increasing the local supply of oil is
the only thing that will cut it.

How's about both?



:: Now that you know the basics let me clue you in.
::
:: 1.
:: We want to do a job, and will have many many days at sea with ZERO
:: wind.
:: Sitting still is OK if you have nothing better to do, and plenty of
:: spare cash.

That's what drove the last of the British windjammers from the seven seas..
Remember the Garthpool! She could not compete with the steamers.

Steamers had a cheap source for fuel, emissions were not an issue. The
oceans were clean, full of fish and not that crowded and exploited,
and things change.

:: 2.
:: Houston is a big port with a very busy, narrow, and long shipping
:: channel. I doubt the Pilot unions have a man that can tack a schooner
:: up the channel without a breeze.

So find a better port. Houston is just one of many. Find one you can
actually sail into. Port Everglades for example.

Houston is a designated Coffee port. Due to tax reasons and
distrubition alone Houston is perfect. I can have a billion dollars
worth of coffee and pay no property taxes on it at
all...zero..nada...

:: 3.
:: Fuel is getting expensive and oil needs to be used more wisely than
:: just burning it. We need to find ways of reducing demand to lower the
:: cost.

Yah, right. We conserve and reduce the cost and China and India buys all the
more and negates any savings. Real smart, mon!

I can not tell China what to do. And do not want to get in a bidding
war to secure more fuel, I'd rather invest in Smart energy resources.
We can build and develope it here in the USA. Now is the time.


:: 4. I hate dealing with diesel. After a bloody week, cut ,burned, and
:: then soaked in it, after a career of dealing with alge issues on just
:: about every boat older than 15 years old, and again the high cost, i'd
:: rather find a better way to have a nice long burst of energy at my
:: finger tips.

There isn't a better way or all commercial shipping would be using it
already.

The cost of fossel fuel will continue to rise and at some point the
scale will tip. I'd rather be ahead of the curve neal. Thats the
point.

The only better way I can think of is the small nuclear reactors
they plan to market in Japan. These might be the ideal solution for
shipping.

http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/...shiba-micro-nu...

they have issues, the russians did it on cargo ships long ago.

:: It's called "auxiliary power" Neal. This type of unit could also
:: generate the house power as well. The "primary power" and electric
:: generation comes from the sails.

Dream on. Do the math. It won't work.

Done the math.


:: On the issue of the bad side of acid and lead.. you have lead in your
:: keel and its leeching out around cedar bucket cut and chicken bone
:: reef as you type.

Can you say, "cast iron?"

Oh. I like cast Iron..makes since on a cheap boat. What about all the
uric acid that surrounds your boat?

:: *I would think a blow hard like you could see harnessing electric
:: power from the sails a positive thing. Nice and quiet..ect..

Do the math. Not enough production capability spinning the prop and as the
prop spins the forward speed decreases. If you harnessed ALL the power of
the sails and turned it into electricity you might have enough to run your
electric motor but then you would *need* to run your motor because the sails
would not be making you go.

All you need is to store 48 hr energy use at 100% power. According
the the pilot charts the winds blow around 75% of the time between
here and there over 10 kts. Three days gereration time for every day
used at 100%. Then only plan on using 50% power most of the time.

My prop was always spinning, and it slowing me down was never an
issue. Even with the shaft chained down it had little effect on
slowing the boat..at all.

And as a back up to the back up Solar panels on the cargo hold and a
couple of wind gens. maybe a capstone micro turbine generator for
emergency power.

Wish I could start building now, with all the new energy stimilus
money uncle sam is investing that could pay for around 30% of the
construction cost.

Joe


Wilbur Hubbard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Joe wrote:
I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. They need 420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe


As a starting point, it will probably make about the same amount of
torque as it uses under power - for the same prop rpm.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:13:13 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Joe wrote:
I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. They need 420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe


As a starting point, it will probably make about the same amount of
torque as it uses under power - for the same prop rpm.


Probably a good starting place.

I've seen at least one 40 ft. sailboat with an auto alternator belted
to the prop shaft, the theory was that one could generator electricity
while sailing.

Another point is that there isn't a free lunch and I suspect that the
force necessary to turn a propeller generating X amount of power has
to come from somewhere. Probably in drag on the boat which will have
to be overcome by larger sails.

By the way, the statement "will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity" is quite simply wrong as RPM of the
generator also enters into the equation. First because torque is not
measured in pounds, it is measured in force at some specified arm
length - Foot Pounds, Inch Ounces, etc. Secondly because movement of
the electrical generating fields is required. The specification should
have been some amount of horsepower, which is really another way to
specify speed and torque.



Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Oct 30, 7:12*pm, Bruce wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:13:13 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:





Joe wrote:
I'm hoping someone might have a refference site for free wheeling prop
torque produced by a prop around the size of a 20X20 sailing at hull
speed. (9kts)

*One goal on the boat we are designing and building will be an
electric drive system and we are leaning towards a power phase 150
drive.

http://www.uqm.com/propulsion_specs.php

*It's a 200 HP perm magnet motor, so as you sail and the prop turns it
will generate power for the battery banks. These motors are now being
used in electric hummers in the Army. *They need *420 volt DC using
two banks of batterys (35 batteries each bank) and will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity.

*Now I'm pretty sure the torque on a prop around the 22" size will be
way over 75 lbs but do not know exactly. Im hoping it's twice that at
least for gear reduction.

So I'm hoping someone might have, or know where I can get data on prop
torque. If not.... I guess I'm going to have to get a monkey wrench
and a scale and find a boat of the proper size to test.

Any suggestions?

Joe

As a starting point, it will probably make about the same amount of
torque as it uses under power - for the same prop rpm.

Probably a good starting place.

I've seen at least one 40 ft. sailboat with an auto alternator belted
to the prop shaft, the theory was that one could generator electricity
while sailing.

Another point is that there isn't a free lunch and I suspect that the
force necessary to turn a propeller generating X amount of power has
to come from somewhere. Probably in drag on the boat which will have
to be overcome by larger sails.

By the way, the statement *"will require 75 LBS
or torque to generate electricity" is quite simply wrong as RPM of the
generator also enters into the equation. First because torque is not
measured in pounds, it is measured in *force at some specified arm
length - Foot Pounds, Inch Ounces, etc.

Hello Bruce,

Did you check out the spec sheet?
And you are right, drag will be produced but overcomed by larger
sails. You have seen alt drives on shafts ect this is the same deal
except this generator is a state of the art high temp NdFeB permanent
magnet motor generator. Might need a big ass variable pitch prop to
max the input but overcoming it's drag with canvas can be done.

Answering Cavelamb the motor produces 475 lbs of torque at full power.
After strapping down a few shafts on crewboats, I know damn well a
32X32 will produce well over 475 lbs torque at the end of a 36 "
monkey with little speed.

Secondly because movement of
the electrical generating fields is required. The specification should
have been some amount of horsepower, which is really another way to
specify speed and torque.


I'm doing the basic math. I asked the sells guy how much torque is
need to produce power and he said 75LBS. The batterys would make nice
ballast and the motor has the ability to charge the banks with ease
with the right set up. Maybe I can get Ford to sell me some big high
tech energy storage banks at cost.

Joe

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 07:12:33 +0700, Bruce
wrote:

Secondly because movement of
the electrical generating fields is required. The specification should
have been some amount of horsepower, which is really another way to
specify speed and torque.

Yes. I think a good starting point would be the power equations for a
falling water tuurbine which is an old established technology. As a
frame of reference, water falling 16 feet has a velocity of 32 feet
per second. A boat under sail at 6 kts has a velocity of about 10
feet per second (2.5 meters/sec).

The basic equation can be found he

http://ahec.org.in/Aboutus/plant.html

POWER (kW) = 5.9 x FLOW x HEAD

HEAD is the comparable height to produce a velocity of 10 ft/sec in a
falling body or about 1.5 feet (0.4 meters).

FLOW is equal to cubic meters of water per second which should be
roughly equal to the area swept by your prop times the velocity of the
water. Assuming the velocity is 2.5 meters/sec and the area swept by
your 20 inch prop (pi R ^2) is about .2 meters, then flow is about .5
cubic meters/sec.

Plugging back into the original equation we get:

KWs = 5.9 * .5 * .4 = 1.18 kw or about the same as a 100 amp
alternator at 12 volts or about 1.5 horsepower.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:31:50 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:

After strapping down a few shafts on crewboats, I know damn well a
32X32 will produce well over 475 lbs torque at the end of a 36 "
monkey with little speed.

That is "stall torque" which is not necessarily what your generator is
going to see. Horsepower is the meaningful number which is torque
times velocity, 550 ft pounds per second.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm