wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


One basic problem with his practice is that it leads to confusion by
other vessels, who will be expecting his vessel to act as what it
really is. Not much different from the chucklehead on land who trys
and give the right of way to others at a 4 way stop, when it is his
turn to go. Suddenly, order evaporates and no one knows what to expect
or do. This is followed by all cars lurching and stopping as they play
guessing games in the intersection.

How's that? If someone on another boat sees water flowing out of the back,
they would assume that I'm a powerboat. If they know the rules, they would
assume I'm likely required to take action, which I would do.

Who says other boats can even see water coming out the back of your
boat? Chances are probably better that they can't in most situations.

If they can't see it, and it's not a situation where it's an issue, then
it's, um, not an issue. So, I don't see what point you're trying to make.
There's nothing in the colregs that says I can't change course, use
courtesy, etc., when in non-emergency situations.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
om...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland.


See ya!

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:4tvpd5h39fd4mbash5csh0tr2lupfqski5@4ax. com...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these
days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the
collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid
a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot
where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland.


See ya!


So, you don't have the ability to respond. Ok, you can have the last word if
you want it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:50:44 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:57:47 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:58:25 +0200, "Edgar"
wrote:


wrote in message
news:4tvpd5h39fd4mbash5csh0tr2lupfqski5@4ax .com...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"

wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these
days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

No it is not. A black sphere signifies that you are at anchor. You
should
have said 'cone apex downward'


When I typed that, my brain was idling and not in gear. :- )

Lets's just change it to, "That may look like I'm motoring to you, but
if you don't see a day shape or navigation light indicating otherwise,
I'm a sailboat.

If jon were to find himself in an Admiralty court, and proudly stated
that although he was legally sailing, he was acting as if he was a
powerboat, I think that would open him up to some unexpected
surprises. He would have just admitted that he was not following the
colregs.

There would be no need to admit it, because I would be acting like a
powerboat, and thus be obligated to use the engine to avoid the
collision.
The requirement to follow the rules ends when doing all one can to avoid
a
collision.


Good luck, Buck! The problem here is that by failing to act like the
sailboat you are, you may have contributed to creating the situation
that now requires drastic emergency manuvers. Other vessels in the
situation couldn't predict what you would do, because you weren't
being predictible. The reason for the very existence of the colregs is
so that everyone is predictable in their actions so conflicts can be
avoided. Show proper indicators, and if you are a sailboat, act like
one.

How that? If I'm acting like a powerboat, I have my engine on, I react to
crossing situations, etc., as a powerboat and in fact engage my engine if
there's any doubt, how do I "contribute to a situation that now requires
drastic emergeny maneuvers"? If water is being discharged in the spot
where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.


Okay, now you have officially crossed the line into dopeyland.


See ya!


So, you don't have the ability to respond. Ok, you can have the last word if
you want it.

What a queer response!

Really, Jon. Put down the shovel.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.

The logical conclusion is that a pump is running.

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.

The logical conclusion is that a pump is running.

Casady


Right.. but most people would associate that with the engine, especially if
it's pretty constant and puffing steam from time to time.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:21:33 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Richard Casady" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:09:00 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.

The logical conclusion is that a pump is running.

Casady


Right.. but most people would associate that with the engine, especially if
it's pretty constant and puffing steam from time to time.

I too would go by the steam and conclude an engine is running, true
enough.

Casady

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:37:22 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.

The logical conclusion is that a pump is running.

Casady


Right.. but most people would associate that with the engine, especially if
it's pretty constant and puffing steam from time to time.

I too would go by the steam and conclude an engine is running, true
enough.

Whether or not a sailboat is "sailing" or under power is a judgement
call and has nothing to do with exhaust or water flow. The boat is
probably under power if:

- It is going dead into the wind with sails luffing for some extended
period of time.

- It is making good speed in light air with only the mainsail up.

For the purposes of collision avoidance the boat has to be treated as
under sail regardless, but if I believe a boat is under power I'll
stand on as long as prudent and use horn signals or a radio call if
intentions are unclear.

The real fun starts when a sailboat clearly under power suddenly
alters course and starts to cross your bow from the port side. It
happens more often than you'd think. If admonished, more often than
not the sailboat will repond with a burst of profanity directed
towards power boaters in general.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:37:22 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

If water is being discharged in the spot where
most boats would assume is where an engine discharges water, then the
logical conclusion would be that my engine is engaged.

The logical conclusion is that a pump is running.

Casady


Right.. but most people would associate that with the engine, especially
if
it's pretty constant and puffing steam from time to time.

I too would go by the steam and conclude an engine is running, true
enough.

Whether or not a sailboat is "sailing" or under power is a judgement
call and has nothing to do with exhaust or water flow. The boat is
probably under power if:

- It is going dead into the wind with sails luffing for some extended
period of time.

- It is making good speed in light air with only the mainsail up.

For the purposes of collision avoidance the boat has to be treated as
under sail regardless, but if I believe a boat is under power I'll
stand on as long as prudent and use horn signals or a radio call if
intentions are unclear.

The real fun starts when a sailboat clearly under power suddenly
alters course and starts to cross your bow from the port side. It
happens more often than you'd think. If admonished, more often than
not the sailboat will repond with a burst of profanity directed
towards power boaters in general.

Actually, it doesn't happen more than I think. :-) Happens all the time. No
point in profanity, since they may not be able to hear, but the finger
works.

I think the key issue is collision avoidance and causing confusion, both of
which need to be avoided/prevented.

As Salty rightly pointed out, if you do something that causes an "emergency"
maneauver, then you're not doing something right.

But, I don't think that was the original diversion in the capsize thread.
(Of course, it was so long ago, that who knows.) I believe we were talking
about propelling vs. engagement of the engine.

When I have the engine on, I consider it to be engaged, mainly because I can
engage it immediately. I don't run the engine if I'm really under sail and
moving nicely, unless there's some extenuating circumstance, e.g., I want to
slow the boat down while I student reefs under sail. Engine in reverse with
low Rs works nicely for this. There are other situations, of course.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com