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"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration.
Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because the mizzen is
masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is
where the sloop has the hands down advantage. There is only so much
righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast
is effectively disabled by the main, serious sail area and close haul
drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need
sail bags and sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space
is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a vacation, but
as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and
your dream soon gets old.

You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in
crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you end up carrying
and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that,
the misery of carrying your dirty laundry through the rain to the nearest
Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a
hand basket. You will need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and
they don't come cheap.
Steve


I would have to say that "small" is relative. My CT41 ketch had a main and
genny that were big enough that I had to be VERY careful about reefing
before the wind picked up too much or they could be too much for me to
handle. The sails on my Rawson 30 ketch are small compared with anything
larger than a Sabot (well, almost), but they fit her nicely and I can set
enough light air sail to keep moving if there's even a breath of wind.

As for the main blanketing the mizzen, this doesn't affect pointing ability,
only the effectiveness of the mizzen itself when sailing close hauled, and
isn't needed anyway. An older narrower-beamed ketch can outpoing many newer
sloops of the very beamy variety with wide spreaders and shrouds. Of course,
the narrower beam will also translate into less space down below. Everything
on a boat is a compromise.
--
KLC Lewis

WISCONSIN
Where It's So Cool Outside, Nobody Stays Indoors Napping
www.KLCLewisStudios.com



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In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because
the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage.
There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the
main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and
sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a
vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old.

You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you
end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry
through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will
need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap.
Steve

"silverdragon" wrote in message
...
Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the
livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was
wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand
experience.

Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a

Cats ketch
Yawl or ketch
Schooner Junk

I would love to get some feed back thanks!


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On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:01:16 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon
wrote:

On Aug 25, 5:02*pm, Bruce In Bangkok
wrote:
On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT), silverdragon

wrote:
Hey I have been doing some research on diffrent rig types for the
livaboard my wife and I plan to buy in the next 4 years and I was
wondering what some of you reccommend. Or if you had any first hand
experience.


Some of the rigs we have been looking in to a


Cats ketch
Yawl or ketch
Schooner Junk


I would love to get some feed back thanks!


How big a boat?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Probably around a 40ft, and we will be using it for blue water
cruising, ocean crossing and a full time live aboard.

Is it viable to buy a ketch and then convert it to a cats ketch?

How different is a cats ketch to sail then a sloop or a cutter?


-Eric Taylor


If you buy a specific rigged boat and then decide to change the rig
you are talking about some fairly extensive modification. changing to
a Cat Ketch would likely entail moving one or both masts. Which would
entail possible modification of the hull to support the mast,
relocation of chain plates, possible added reinforcement of the hull
to attach the chain plates, and so on.

A logical question would be, since most of the common rigs have sailed
the oceans with, apparently equal success, what would be the advantage
of modifying a perfectly seaworthy boat into what might turn out to be
a miserable mismatched monstrosity?

Given that the mast head sloop, or 3/4 rig are probably the most
commonly seen smaller boat one might give some thought to why...
And to give additional thought to what advantage a different type of
rig might have?

If it were me and I have lived aboard for more then ten years, I would
give much more thought to the hull type. Cat or mono hull; center or
aft cockpit; location of hatches and ports, etc.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
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On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:22:26 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration. Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because
the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage.
There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the
main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally, 2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and
sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a
vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be sacrificed and your dream soon gets old.


Steve, must you always play devil's advocate?

Big / Small is in the eye of the beholder. In our cruising live-aboard
life we've run into all kinds of people and boats. I guess the bottom
of the line was a very happy couple with two pre-teen kids that lived
and cruised on a 24-footer. They said they wouldn't have a bigger boat
if someone gave it to them. They cited the extra costs involved (it
seems cost goes up by the cube of the LOA). The other end of the
spectrum was a young couple on a 80-foot power boat. They were looking
at a 95-footer because they needed more room.

I'd say we met over 100 full time cruisers / live-aboards and about
half, if not more, were under 30-feet. Very few were over 40-feet.

Our current home is 'Valkyrie', a Pearson Rhodes 41 yawl. It's "lean"
and probably translates more to a "normal" 33-footer re living space.
We have not sacrificed any creature comforts. We have a king size
berth, shower for 2, HD TV, well equipped galley with fridge and
feezer, etc. We all gripe about stowage space and all wish we had
more. This was true when we cruised for a year aboard a 22-footer, a
couple months aboard a 52-footer, 3 years aboard a 35-footer and now.
You go with what you can afford and what feels right. Sometimes I wish
home was a 30-footer for simpler and less expensive.

Steve also wrote:
You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you
end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry
through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will
need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap.


Oh come on. I will agree that many wind up carting a load of what's
really junk. We have two basic rules in that regard. 1 - If there's no
place to put it out of the way, it goes. No junk piled up on settees,
etc. 2 - With the exception of engine parts, rigging spares, sails,
that sort of stuff, if it hasn't been used in 6 months, it goes.

Many do find it difficult to simplify in that regard. Most learn after
a while, but some never do. We've been aboard boats where you have to
literaly crawl over piles of crap. Some of these boats met your
definition of big enough.

Uh, Steve... Why not wait until it quits raining to do the laundry?
BTW, we do have a washing machine of sorts on board. It's a neat
bucket like thing with a motor to agitate the clothes. A plumber's
helper and a 5-gallon bucket does just as well with a bit more effort.
Heck, we even have a "dryer" - it's a clothes line reel mounted under
the hardtop.

I think a "dream is to survive" is all wrong. We're living our "dream
to enjoy life" aboard our floating home.


To finally get to the question of the original poster.

All rigs work almost equally well. Some have an advantage under
certain conditions, others have the advantage under other conditions.

If I had the pick of anything I wanted, I'd go with a ketch for two
reasons. It's handy for sailing under jib and mizzen when it's blowing
and the mizzen can be used at anchor in a current to keep pointed into
the wind and waves, preferably with a mizzen "anchor" sail. I did find
that unless the wind was +/- 20 deg or so from abeam it wasn't worth
it to hoist the mizzen.

But then, is it easier to hoist the mizzen on that windy day or to
reef the main?

Having said that, it really isn't a big deal. 'Valkyrie' is a yawl and
the mizzen is used only as a "pole" for the TV antenna, wind generator
and some of the solar panels. Part of the reason is the mizzen was
apparently dismasted during her racing career and re-welded back
together. There's also some pretty bad dings a few feet above deck. I
really don't trust the integrity. But the main reason is a yawl is a
pain in the butt. You wind up playing monkey a lot since the boom
extends out way past the stern. Add to that she has a pair of running
backstays that have to be handled. So we're really a sloop with 20 sq.
ft. less sail area than the "factory" sloop.

While there are junk and cat advocates I don't really care for either
rig. Junk rigs are very, very easy to handle with a good winch, but
those I've come across do very poorly to windward. Cats seem to be a
bit on the slow side and have a huge sail to handle compared to the
other rigs. That "slot" between the jib and main makes a big
difference. Of course, this is all my opinion and applies only to me.
It's based on only one example each of those rigs.

Everybody complains that now most makes of cars seem to look the same.
There's a reason for that. The laws of aerodynamics dictate the shapes
to get the best gas mileage. I think it's probably the same reason the
vast majority of sailboats are sloops. It's relatively simple and it
works well.

Rick


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On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:33:22 -0500, Rick Morel
wrote:

Cats seem to be a
bit on the slow side and have a huge sail to handle compared to the
other rigs


One of the first boats I ever sailed was a C scow. Cat rigged, running
back stays. There has never been a slow scow.

Casady


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"Rick Morel" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 22:22:26 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration.
Any multi-mast configuration will not point well because
the mizzen is masked by the main. Off the wind, no problem, but close to
the wind is where the sloop has the hands down advantage.
There is only so much righting moment and if you share that across
multiple masts and one mast is effectively disabled by the
main, serious sail area and close haul drive is sacrificed. Additionally,
2 masts require more sails. Sails need sail bags and
sail bags need storage space. With a 40' boat, storage space is at a
premium for liveaboard use. That size is great for a
vacation, but as a permanent home, many creature comforts will have to be
sacrificed and your dream soon gets old.


Steve, must you always play devil's advocate?

Big / Small is in the eye of the beholder. In our cruising live-aboard
life we've run into all kinds of people and boats. I guess the bottom
of the line was a very happy couple with two pre-teen kids that lived
and cruised on a 24-footer. They said they wouldn't have a bigger boat
if someone gave it to them. They cited the extra costs involved (it
seems cost goes up by the cube of the LOA). The other end of the
spectrum was a young couple on a 80-foot power boat. They were looking
at a 95-footer because they needed more room.

I'd say we met over 100 full time cruisers / live-aboards and about
half, if not more, were under 30-feet. Very few were over 40-feet.

Our current home is 'Valkyrie', a Pearson Rhodes 41 yawl. It's "lean"
and probably translates more to a "normal" 33-footer re living space.
We have not sacrificed any creature comforts. We have a king size
berth, shower for 2, HD TV, well equipped galley with fridge and
feezer, etc. We all gripe about stowage space and all wish we had
more. This was true when we cruised for a year aboard a 22-footer, a
couple months aboard a 52-footer, 3 years aboard a 35-footer and now.
You go with what you can afford and what feels right. Sometimes I wish
home was a 30-footer for simpler and less expensive.

Steve also wrote:
You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in
crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you
end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry
more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry
through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario
you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will
need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap.


Oh come on. I will agree that many wind up carting a load of what's
really junk. We have two basic rules in that regard. 1 - If there's no
place to put it out of the way, it goes. No junk piled up on settees,
etc. 2 - With the exception of engine parts, rigging spares, sails,
that sort of stuff, if it hasn't been used in 6 months, it goes.

Many do find it difficult to simplify in that regard. Most learn after
a while, but some never do. We've been aboard boats where you have to
literaly crawl over piles of crap. Some of these boats met your
definition of big enough.

Uh, Steve... Why not wait until it quits raining to do the laundry?
BTW, we do have a washing machine of sorts on board. It's a neat
bucket like thing with a motor to agitate the clothes. A plumber's
helper and a 5-gallon bucket does just as well with a bit more effort.
Heck, we even have a "dryer" - it's a clothes line reel mounted under
the hardtop.

I think a "dream is to survive" is all wrong. We're living our "dream
to enjoy life" aboard our floating home.


To finally get to the question of the original poster.

All rigs work almost equally well. Some have an advantage under
certain conditions, others have the advantage under other conditions.

If I had the pick of anything I wanted, I'd go with a ketch for two
reasons. It's handy for sailing under jib and mizzen when it's blowing
and the mizzen can be used at anchor in a current to keep pointed into
the wind and waves, preferably with a mizzen "anchor" sail. I did find
that unless the wind was +/- 20 deg or so from abeam it wasn't worth
it to hoist the mizzen.

But then, is it easier to hoist the mizzen on that windy day or to
reef the main?

Having said that, it really isn't a big deal. 'Valkyrie' is a yawl and
the mizzen is used only as a "pole" for the TV antenna, wind generator
and some of the solar panels. Part of the reason is the mizzen was
apparently dismasted during her racing career and re-welded back
together. There's also some pretty bad dings a few feet above deck. I
really don't trust the integrity. But the main reason is a yawl is a
pain in the butt. You wind up playing monkey a lot since the boom
extends out way past the stern. Add to that she has a pair of running
backstays that have to be handled. So we're really a sloop with 20 sq.
ft. less sail area than the "factory" sloop.

While there are junk and cat advocates I don't really care for either
rig. Junk rigs are very, very easy to handle with a good winch, but
those I've come across do very poorly to windward. Cats seem to be a
bit on the slow side and have a huge sail to handle compared to the
other rigs. That "slot" between the jib and main makes a big
difference. Of course, this is all my opinion and applies only to me.
It's based on only one example each of those rigs.

Everybody complains that now most makes of cars seem to look the same.
There's a reason for that. The laws of aerodynamics dictate the shapes
to get the best gas mileage. I think it's probably the same reason the
vast majority of sailboats are sloops. It's relatively simple and it
works well.

Rick

I sail on a 72ft LOA staysail ketch, far too big for 2 to sail, although we
can manage with 3 up.

With the extra forestay, and runners, we can carry the whole lot in up to 30
knots apparent wind when closehauled, but handling the sails is beyond 2
persons. We have a powerful autohelm and that allows us reduce canvas fairly
quickly when shorthanded. I would say 45-foot would be the max. for a man
and wife team. We also have powered everything, including the jib roller
reefing and main halyard hoist.

The huge accomodation makes the boat ideal as a liveaboard, even for just 2
souls. Your wife would love the freezer, big enough for a whole cow! You
simply have to compromise when it comes to the sailing bit, and go for
something you can both handle.

I love the staysail ketch rig, with it's many configurations for different
wind stengths and points of sailing.

Dennis.

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On Aug 27, 1:22*am, "Steve Lusardi" wrote:
In a 40 ft boat, you're talking about small sails in any configuration.


That's relative.
It's a function of gear & conditions. If you're sweating over stock
(undersized) winches & a poor deck layout, a 30-footer will have sails
that seem impossibly big.


You are in the dream stage now where all you can see is the bow wave in crystal clear waters. You have no idea how much **** you
end up carrying and the frustration that sets in when you can't carry more. Add to that, the misery of carrying your dirty laundry
through the rain to the nearest Laundromat and this idealistic scenario you now envisage goes to hell in a hand basket. You will
need a bigger boat if your dream is to survive and they don't come cheap.


1st of all, not everybody wants/needs a "McMansion On The Blue" so
they can take it all with them. 2nd there are 40 footers and then
there are 40 footers. Displacment is a much better guide to 'size' of
a vessel than length.

It's also true that a liveaboard cruiser must be a different
proposition than a part-time cruiser or vacation sailer. You need mor
spare parts & tools, a better galley & head, fewer bunks. Personally,
I have seen few cruising boats that had enough room for books.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
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