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Default Bottom Paint Half Price (Serious Question)

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:24:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 13:12:28 -0400, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Armond Perretta" wrote in message

... I took a new gallon of Trinidad, split it in half, ... added ...
about one half quart of last year's paint, and then [brought]
the volume to about three quarts in each ... can. This means
the paint was thinned about 25 to 27 percent ...

.... But what you did is an illusion. You
added volume by adding thinner. This will not harm the paint but it
will reduce the thickness of each coat as the excess thinner will
evaporated of sublimate resulting in a thinner coating than if the
paint had not been thinned. What it amounts to is you fooled yourself
into thinking you had more paint while all you really accomplished is
making extra work for yourself in that you have to add at least one
more coat to acquire the thickness you would have had with fewer
coats using paint that was not thinned ...


I'm not sure "illusion" is a good description of my thinking. I am aware
that I am covering the same surface area with less active material (in this
case somewhere between 72 and 75% of the cuprous oxide active ingredient I
have applied in the past). The question is: "Will this attempt to cut
expenses result in satisfactory single season performance for my particular
application, when compared with standard application methods?"

Can you comment based on your own experience?


I would not expect it to perform as well. Ablative paints depend on
adhesion to the hull, AND adhesion to itself. Without that much
thinner, the paint is not going to be as strong. My guess is that it
is not only a thinner layer, but it will ablate much faster.

What did you save with this foolishness? $25?

Bottom paint is not there for looks. Maybe you could save money by
straining your old oil through a tee shirt and putting it back in the
engine.



As an aside, my grandfather did this for the 30 years he owned his old
Model A pickup, except that he didn't wear "tee shirts" so he poured
the oil into a 55 gal drum and let it settle. then dipped the "new oil
off the top.

He bragged that bought the truck when it was 2 or three years old for
$100 and sold it some 30 years later for $1,000. Thought he got a
pretty good deal out of it.


Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
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Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon. This routine has worked for many
years, and even though the boat has never been taken down to bare
glass, the buildup is not an apparent problem. In recent years the
boat has been kept on the Jersey Shore in brackish water.
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.


Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

This past summer we did an "average" amount of sailing based from New
Jersey. We spent 3 weeks in southern New England and otherwise sailed
approximately 2 to 3 times a week daysailing in and around Barnegat Bay.
The boat is usually moored on the Toms River in what I would call brackish
conditions, although we do have ocean access through several inlets quite
nearby. I did not dive on or clean the hull during the season.

When we pulled the boat we had a bit of slime but not much and certainly not
more than on previous occasions using the same paint straight from the can.
We had no barnacles on the paint, but they are out there as I had a few on
the prop (which has pretty much always been the case since I don't make any
effort to treat the prop).

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare





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"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon. This routine has worked for many
years, and even though the boat has never been taken down to bare
glass, the buildup is not an apparent problem. In recent years the
boat has been kept on the Jersey Shore in brackish water.
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.


Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar
experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

This past summer we did an "average" amount of sailing based from New
Jersey. We spent 3 weeks in southern New England and otherwise sailed
approximately 2 to 3 times a week daysailing in and around Barnegat Bay.
The boat is usually moored on the Toms River in what I would call brackish
conditions, although we do have ocean access through several inlets quite
nearby. I did not dive on or clean the hull during the season.

When we pulled the boat we had a bit of slime but not much and certainly
not
more than on previous occasions using the same paint straight from the
can.
We had no barnacles on the paint, but they are out there as I had a few on
the prop (which has pretty much always been the case since I don't make
any
effort to treat the prop).

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare



Good to hear it worked out Armond. thanks for the info.




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"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon. This routine has worked for many
years, and even though the boat has never been taken down to bare
glass, the buildup is not an apparent problem. In recent years the
boat has been kept on the Jersey Shore in brackish water.
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.


Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar
experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

This past summer we did an "average" amount of sailing based from New
Jersey. We spent 3 weeks in southern New England and otherwise sailed
approximately 2 to 3 times a week daysailing in and around Barnegat Bay.
The boat is usually moored on the Toms River in what I would call brackish
conditions, although we do have ocean access through several inlets quite
nearby. I did not dive on or clean the hull during the season.

When we pulled the boat we had a bit of slime but not much and certainly
not
more than on previous occasions using the same paint straight from the
can.
We had no barnacles on the paint, but they are out there as I had a few on
the prop (which has pretty much always been the case since I don't make
any
effort to treat the prop).

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare




Stupid, stupid, stupid! What you are doing is spending more on haul outs
than you save on paint. Your system requires an annual haul out and we all
know those aren't cheap. They call this being penny wise and pound foolish
across the other side of the Pond.

If you would wake up and lay on two full gallons of bottom paint instead of
being a cheapskate your bottom job would last five or more years. This
assumes a hard, scrubable surfaces such as Petit Trinidad SR which is
epoxy-based. This assumes the majority of coats placed on the high wear
areas. Two gallons can give you 8-10 coats at the high wear areas along the
boot stripe and down a couple feet, the entire rudder and extra on the
leading trailing edges if it's a spade rudder. The bow shearwater area also
needs 8-10 coats. The rest of the boat four or five coats will do. Why
because you will have to clean the bottom after the first couple years with
a scrub brush every four months or so to get rid of slime, algae and other
soft growth. Also every year you can hit it with wet-dry fine sandpaper and
burnish it underwater while snorkeling. This removes spent layers of biocide
and renews the potency.

I bet the boat yards love your advice but, really, it's quite shortsighted
from an boat owner's standpoint.

Wilbur Hubbard



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Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon.
...
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.


Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar
experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.


Stupid, stupid, stupid!


A bit harsh, though I must say his numbers don't quite seem to add up
or, as you would say on your side of the Pond, his "math" is suspect.

He needs 3 quarts per coat, and his old system therefore used 12 quarts
(3 gallons) of full strength goop every 4 years. His new system still
involves using 3 quarts per coat, but of goop thinned to 75% strength.
In other words he will now need 2.25 quarts of full strength goop per
coat, which isn't quite down to the 2 coats per gallon (which would be
2.00 quarts per coat) he claims, unless he's going to dilute it down to
67% strength (which he may well get away with, but I guess that's next
year's experiment).

3 gallons used to give him 4 years, and if he dilutes to 67%, then 2
gallons will give him 4 years. That's not "Half Price", it's 1/3 off.
And then only if the thinner costs nothing.

What you are doing is spending more on haul outs
than you save on paint. Your system requires an annual haul out and we all
know those aren't cheap. They call this being penny wise and pound foolish
across the other side of the Pond.


But he may well be hauling out annually anyway, for other reasons, even
in those years when no painting would be needed.

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Ronald Raygun wrote:
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon.
...
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.
Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar
experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.


Stupid, stupid, stupid!


A bit harsh, though I must say his numbers don't quite seem to add up
or, as you would say on your side of the Pond, his "math" is suspect.

He needs 3 quarts per coat, and his old system therefore used 12 quarts
(3 gallons) of full strength goop every 4 years. His new system still
involves using 3 quarts per coat, but of goop thinned to 75% strength.
In other words he will now need 2.25 quarts of full strength goop per
coat, which isn't quite down to the 2 coats per gallon (which would be
2.00 quarts per coat) he claims, unless he's going to dilute it down to
67% strength (which he may well get away with, but I guess that's next
year's experiment).

3 gallons used to give him 4 years, and if he dilutes to 67%, then 2
gallons will give him 4 years. That's not "Half Price", it's 1/3 off.
And then only if the thinner costs nothing.

What you are doing is spending more on haul outs
than you save on paint. Your system requires an annual haul out and we all
know those aren't cheap. They call this being penny wise and pound foolish
across the other side of the Pond.


But he may well be hauling out annually anyway, for other reasons, even
in those years when no painting would be needed.

Well for what its worth, 5 litres of Jotun Seaguardian will do over 4
coats on a full keel 26 footer. That's two coats per year rolled on, +
extra coats near the waterline and on the rudder. Seaguardian is
supposed to be good for 30 months, but we haul annually anyway and might
as well freshen up the antifouling while we are out. The part tin will
keep a year if properly resealed with some butane gas in there to
displace the air and prevent it oxidizing. There is some thinners to
add to the bill but that's used at well under the 10% max ratio
recommended. Works pretty good as well, with no weed or barnacles
unless it's got rubbed off somewhere. Any spot that has got rubbed or
has to be taken back to the gelcoat for any reason gets underwater
primer followed by black hard scrubbable 'waterline' antifouling as a
'witness' coat and to prevent serious fouling if it happens again.
The same tiny can of scrubbable has been on the go for the last two
years and there is plenty left.

For all you mathematically challenged Leftpondians 1 litre is just under
a US quart.

This year I set aside half the big can as soon as I opened it as I had a
clean 2.5 litre tin handy. If you are keeping it, you want it well
mixed, as fresh as possible and to set it aside *before* mixing in old
paint.

I read it as every third year he avoided buying a new can so that's 2 US
gallons for 3 years and he's reduced to 1 for 2 years by diluting it.
How he got 3 quarts left after two years and reckons to save half by
thinning, I do not know, but unless he's measured what's left in the can
accurately I wouldn't believe his 3 quarts per coat.

Unless he's getting more paint on himself and the hard standing he's
slapping it on far thicker than we do as we are doing two coats. I
reckon I'd have had plenty from my half can to do a 28 footer at an even
two coats all over with a bit spare for the waterline and where the prop
wash hits the rudder.

The biggest saving would be buy a radiator roller handle and the *GOOD*
(i.e. EXPENSIVE) rollers to go on it. A fully loaded large roller is to
heavy and awkward and cheap rollers break up too much and waste paint.
The extra length of the radiator roller handle makes the job go much
quicker with less stooping.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
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"IanM" wrote in message
...
Well for what its worth, 5 litres of Jotun Seaguardian will do over 4
coats on a full keel 26 footer. That's two coats per year rolled on, +
extra coats near the waterline and on the rudder. Seaguardian is supposed
to be good for 30 months, but we haul annually anyway and might as well
freshen up the antifouling while we are out. The part tin will keep a year
if properly resealed with some butane gas in there to displace the air and
prevent it oxidizing. There is some thinners to add to the bill but
that's used at well under the 10% max ratio recommended. Works pretty
good as well, with no weed or barnacles unless it's got rubbed off
somewhere. Any spot that has got rubbed or has to be taken back to the
gelcoat for any reason gets underwater primer followed by black hard
scrubbable 'waterline' antifouling as a 'witness' coat and to prevent
serious fouling if it happens again. The same tiny can of scrubbable has
been on the go for the last two years and there is plenty left.

For all you mathematically challenged Leftpondians 1 litre is just under a
US quart.

This year I set aside half the big can as soon as I opened it as I had a
clean 2.5 litre tin handy. If you are keeping it, you want it well mixed,
as fresh as possible and to set it aside *before* mixing in old paint.

I read it as every third year he avoided buying a new can so that's 2 US
gallons for 3 years and he's reduced to 1 for 2 years by diluting it. How
he got 3 quarts left after two years and reckons to save half by
thinning, I do not know, but unless he's measured what's left in the can
accurately I wouldn't believe his 3 quarts per coat.

Unless he's getting more paint on himself and the hard standing he's
slapping it on far thicker than we do as we are doing two coats. I reckon
I'd have had plenty from my half can to do a 28 footer at an even two
coats all over with a bit spare for the waterline and where the prop wash
hits the rudder.

The biggest saving would be buy a radiator roller handle and the *GOOD*
(i.e. EXPENSIVE) rollers to go on it. A fully loaded large roller is to
heavy and awkward and cheap rollers break up too much and waste paint. The
extra length of the radiator roller handle makes the job go much quicker
with less stooping.


This makes more sense to me than those post who talk in terms of years
without haulout and paint so they put the stuff on much thicker.
Here in Norway I have to haul out every year because although Oslo fjord has
never frozen right over-at least since I have lived here-the channels
between the inner islands do freeze in a bad winter and the small creeks
where my marina is freeze every year and I do not want to see my boat iced
in with a couple of feet or more snow along the pontoons and no electricity
or water available at the berths.
So I haul every year and give my boat one coat of Hempel antifouling which I
apply with a brush and she always comes out clean except for the propeller
and shaft.
I have not found a rally good solution for these last because the speed of
rotation soon takes off the ablative coating of a standard antifouling.
However, I have found some antifouling Volvo sell (very expensive) in a
spray can for their outdrives which works pretty well because (I think) the
fouling cannot adhere to it and as soon as you run the motor it mostly
shears off.
I always use a brush. I do not go with rollers because they may be OK for
the wide open spaces but you will have to use a brush at some point for the
awkward corners. I never clean my brushes. Just squeeze off the surplus and
leave the bristles nice and straight and let them harden like that . Next
year soak them in gasoline overnight and they come soft again as antifouling
just washes off in gasoline.
I have a 38' fin keel boat with a spade rudder and the whole job takes just
four 750ml tins each year.


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Edgar wrote:
This makes more sense to me than those post who talk in terms of years
without haulout and paint so they put the stuff on much thicker.
Here in Norway I have to haul out every year because although Oslo fjord has
never frozen right over-at least since I have lived here-the channels
between the inner islands do freeze in a bad winter and the small creeks
where my marina is freeze every year and I do not want to see my boat iced
in with a couple of feet or more snow along the pontoons and no electricity
or water available at the berths.
So I haul every year and give my boat one coat of Hempel antifouling which I
apply with a brush and she always comes out clean except for the propeller
and shaft.
I have not found a rally good solution for these last because the speed of
rotation soon takes off the ablative coating of a standard antifouling.
However, I have found some antifouling Volvo sell (very expensive) in a
spray can for their outdrives which works pretty well because (I think) the
fouling cannot adhere to it and as soon as you run the motor it mostly
shears off.
I always use a brush. I do not go with rollers because they may be OK for
the wide open spaces but you will have to use a brush at some point for the
awkward corners. I never clean my brushes. Just squeeze off the surplus and
leave the bristles nice and straight and let them harden like that . Next
year soak them in gasoline overnight and they come soft again as antifouling
just washes off in gasoline.
I have a 38' fin keel boat with a spade rudder and the whole job takes just
four 750ml tins each year.

Good point about the gasoline/petrol. Its a lot cheaper than thinners
for equipment cleanup - even at UK rates of duty on road fuel - and does
a good job on roller handles and brushes. I usually do the cleanup in
the old roller tray and that gets clean enough to re-use as well.

You would be surprised how much of an average hull you can sensibly do
with a roller, and cutting in round skin fittings, anodes etc. is easier
with a 1" brush than a big one. Why not wash out your brushes BEFORE
they set rock solid though?

I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.




--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
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