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On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:33:01 GMT, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:

"Armond Perretta" wrote in message
...
Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I have been using Pettit Trinidad on my 28 foot sloop for many years
(1981 boat purchased new). When we haul, the boat is
pressure-washed, and then in the Spring the loose stuff is scraped
off and the entire bottom wet-sanded with 80 wet-dry. I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon.
...
This year I have decided to honor the titans of Wall Street and what
remains of the financial system by "going cheap." I took a new
gallon of Trinidad, split it in half into a new empty gallon can,
added what appeared to be about one half quart of last year's paint,
and then thinned each can to bring the volume to about three quarts
in each one gallon can. This means the paint was thinned about 25 to
27 percent, which is well in excess of the manufacturer
recommendations. In fact just about any source I can find would
disagree with my approach and advise that I will end up with less
than adequate protection. The only advantage to me is, of course,
cutting my paint cost by half.
I suppose I will find out in the Fall if this plan is practical, but I
thought I'd throw it out there to see if anyone else does it this way
or has similar experience.

Last April I posted the above looking for comments and similar
experiences.
We hauled the boat yesterday and were able to determine how the highly
thinned bottom paint performed. The short answer is: "Very well."

I would have to say that this thinning method works for me, as I am now
going to get 2 paint jobs from one gallon on this 28 foot full keel
sailboat.


Stupid, stupid, stupid!


A bit harsh, though I must say his numbers don't quite seem to add up
or, as you would say on your side of the Pond, his "math" is suspect.

He needs 3 quarts per coat, and his old system therefore used 12 quarts
(3 gallons) of full strength goop every 4 years. His new system still
involves using 3 quarts per coat, but of goop thinned to 75% strength.
In other words he will now need 2.25 quarts of full strength goop per
coat, which isn't quite down to the 2 coats per gallon (which would be
2.00 quarts per coat) he claims, unless he's going to dilute it down to
67% strength (which he may well get away with, but I guess that's next
year's experiment).

3 gallons used to give him 4 years, and if he dilutes to 67%, then 2
gallons will give him 4 years. That's not "Half Price", it's 1/3 off.
And then only if the thinner costs nothing.

What you are doing is spending more on haul outs
than you save on paint. Your system requires an annual haul out and we all
know those aren't cheap. They call this being penny wise and pound foolish
across the other side of the Pond.


But he may well be hauling out annually anyway, for other reasons, even
in those years when no painting would be needed.



I think that youse guys are confusing quantities of liquid with what
actually provides the anti fouling function - the solids.

What is happening is that the O.P. is applying a thinner then previous
layer of solids to the hull. This layer is providing the required anti
fouling function for the period between haul outs.

Since all anti fouling either ablate or expend their anti fouling
chemicals over time logically one applies just enough of the expensive
stuff to last - depending on your use of the vessel. An ablative paint
for example, seems to work best if you go sailing regularly.

In essence probably most people apply more anti fouling then they
require and then complement themselves when they haul annually and
find no growth :-)

By the way, Practical Boatowner, a British magazine, conducted a
rather extensive test of anti fouling paints a few years ago (Post
TBT) and found that a paint that worked perfectly in one local didn't
do worth a damn in another so the fact that a bloke gets startling
results with XYZ paint in one section of the country doesn't
necessarily mean that it is the best paint for another.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
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On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:06:04 +0100, IanM
wrote:

For all you mathematically challenged Leftpondians 1 litre is just under
a US quart.


Bull****. According to the CalculatorThatTakesNoPrisoners[HP48],
[which converts 19 volumn units], one litre equals 1.05668820943 US
quart. About 946 ml to a quart. If you say a litre is about a quart
you aren't far off.

Casady
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"IanM" wrote in message
...

Good point about the gasoline/petrol. Its a lot cheaper than thinners for
equipment cleanup - even at UK rates of duty on road fuel - and does a
good job on roller handles and brushes. I usually do the cleanup in the
old roller tray and that gets clean enough to re-use as well.

You would be surprised how much of an average hull you can sensibly do
with a roller, and cutting in round skin fittings, anodes etc. is easier
with a 1" brush than a big one. Why not wash out your brushes BEFORE they
set rock solid though?


Washing them clean seems like a waste of time and gasoline/petrol seeing
that I keep those brushes just for that one job and I am going to use the
same paint on them next season


I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.


I have about 3' of exposed stainless steel shaft with an outer cutlass
bearing carried in a skeg just before the bronze Maxprop propeller.
I renew the anode on the shaft annually as it ends up pretty pitted
although there is still a lot of zinc left after one season. Never a trace
of pitting on the propeller, though.


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IanM wrote:

Armond Perretta wrote (on 25 April 2009):
I use a foam
roller and about 3 quarts per coat on this full keel boat with a 22
foot waterline. At this rate every 3 years I've had enough paint on
hand to avoid buying a new gallon.


Well for what its worth, 5 litres of Jotun Seaguardian will do over 4
coats on a full keel 26 footer. That's two coats per year rolled on,

I read it as every third year he avoided buying a new can so that's 2 US
gallons for 3 years and he's reduced to 1 for 2 years by diluting it.


His narrative makes clear that he didn't actually write what he must have
meant: He did write "every 3 years", but obviously meant that after the
3rd year he had enough left not to need to buy more for the 4th year.

Year 1: He buys a gallon and uses 3/4 of it.
Year 2: He uses the rest, buys a 2nd gallon and uses 1/2 of that.
Year 3: He uses the rest, buys a 3rd gallon and uses 1/4 of it.
Year 4: He uses the 3/4 gallon left.

How he got 3 quarts left after two years and reckons to save half by
thinning, I do not know,


He has 3 quarts left after *three* years. But it's obvious that if
he uses the same volume of diluted paint per year as he previously
used of undiluted paint, then if he thins to 75% he can only save a
quarter, not half, and if he thins to 67% he would save a third,
not half. Dare he thin to 50%? It'll be so runny then that it
will probably need to be applied in several coats.

but unless he's measured what's left in the can
accurately I wouldn't believe his 3 quarts per coat.


I don't see why not. Since a quart is about a litre, as you say,
his 3 quarts per year is in the same ballpark as your 2.5 litres
per year.

Unless he's getting more paint on himself and the hard standing he's
slapping it on far thicker than we do as we are doing two coats.


Possibly, but it's neither here nor there whether he puts on one
thick coat or two thin ones, if the combined thickness is about
the same. Or he could have been using the word "coat" to mean
one year's coating even if it was in fact applied in two thin coats.

The biggest saving would be buy a radiator roller handle and the *GOOD*
(i.e. EXPENSIVE) rollers to go on it. A fully loaded large roller is to
heavy and awkward and cheap rollers break up too much and waste paint.
The extra length of the radiator roller handle makes the job go much
quicker with less stooping.


I was really pleased when I "discovered" (followed someone's advice
to use) radiator rollers (for the avoidance of doubt, we're talking
about the small ones, about 5 inches long and 1.5 inches in diameter,
the handle being about 2ft long). They're so much easier to use and
make a quicker job of it than brushes. I also tried ordinary full
size rollers and found them too heavy and went back to the small ones.
But then I tried the big rollers on a long handle, and they really make
fast work of it. They're not too heavy when you hold them with both
hands.

I use cheap rollers and don't understand what you mean about them
breaking up. Nor do I understand why using rad rollers should use
less paint overall.

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Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

What is happening is that the O.P. is applying a thinner then previous
layer of solids to the hull. This layer is providing the required anti
fouling function for the period between haul outs.
...
In essence probably most people apply more anti fouling then they
require and then complement themselves when they haul annually and
find no growth ...


As the "OP" I believe I am qualified to state that Bruce has summarized the
situation accurately. In case the point was not adequately explained (or
more likely not adequately understood by some) in earlier posts, let me
restate the point he the idea is to save money. Could that point have
possibly been overlooked?

BTW it is a sad comment on the state of Usenet (and this group in
particular) that an effort to provide helpful information results in some
(but not all) of the responses to this thread. I am not one to give up on
this group, but is this really the best we can do?

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare












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"Edgar" wrote in message
...
I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.


I have about 3' of exposed stainless steel shaft with an outer cutlass
bearing carried in a skeg just before the bronze Maxprop propeller.
I renew the anode on the shaft annually as it ends up pretty pitted
although there is still a lot of zinc left after one season. Never a trace
of pitting on the propeller, though.


We used PropSpeed, very carefully applied, very successfully. Took nearly 2
years to wear off, and before then, any critters slid right off under power,
or were easily dislodged with a bump from a plastic brush handle...

How do your end zincs do on your MP? Mine eat away pretty quickly,
usually - and I also use two collar zincs in the shaft in front of the line
cutter and prop.

However, this last time, the collars were entirely gone, while the cone,
while very deteriorated and partly gone, this time, didn't separate at the
mounting bolts as it usually does.

MP problem has usually been that the mounting points give way before the
mass and it slings off, damaging the bolt still attached, if not changed
soon enough (ask me how I know...)

L8R

Skip and crew, near Tilloo Pond with voice-grade WiFi

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
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"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand
(Richard Bach)


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Armond Perretta wrote:

In case the point was not adequately explained (or
more likely not adequately understood by some) in earlier posts, let me
restate the point he the idea is to save money. Could that point have
possibly been overlooked?


I don't think the point was misunderstood by anybody, not even by Wilbur
who, in his inimitable style, called the idea stupid. He did make a
valid point though, that *if* re-antifouling is the only reason for
spending the winter ashore, which as a rule is quite a bit more
expensive than spending the winter afloat, then your plan is a false
economy, but of course it rarely is the only reason.

Sharing your experiences is appreciated, but you do yourself no favour
by exaggerating the benefit. The fact is that by thinning to 75% you
only save a quarter of the price, not half. However, if you would like
to experiment to see what happens when you thin to 50%, I'm sure your
results will be awaited with interest.

I think you're right that most people slap on more of the stuff than
is really necessary to last a six-month season, so it makes sense to
try to reduce the amount applied. On the other hand, if you winter
afloat occasionally, you will save more money even if you have to use
3 times as much paint because it has to last 18 months.

Wilbur's suggestion that by applying 2 gallons instead of 3 quarts
(or even just 2 or 1.5 quarts) this will last 4-5 years is absurd.

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"Flying Pig" wrote:

"Edgar" wrote in message
...
I've been using a red lanolin based grease called 'Propshield' on the
propeller and it's better than nothing as it keeps the fouling from
sticking hard so it comes off with a pan scourer. The propeller
manufacturer recommended NOT to use paint as they reckoned it increased
the risk of electrolytic pitting.


We used PropSpeed, very carefully applied, very successfully. Took nearly 2
years to wear off, and before then, any critters slid right off under power,
or were easily dislodged with a bump from a plastic brush handle...

Which is it - PropSpeed or Prop Shield

How do your end zincs do on your MP? Mine eat away pretty quickly,
usually - and I also use two collar zincs in the shaft in front of the line
cutter and prop.

However, this last time, the collars were entirely gone, while the cone,
while very deteriorated and partly gone, this time, didn't separate at the
mounting bolts as it usually does.


Paint the zinc where the mounting holes are so it doesn't eat away
there.

MP problem has usually been that the mounting points give way before the
mass and it slings off, damaging the bolt still attached, if not changed
soon enough (ask me how I know...)

L8R

Skip and crew, near Tilloo Pond with voice-grade WiFi

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Ronald Raygun wrote:

I don't think the point was misunderstood by anybody, not even by
Wilbur who, in his inimitable style, called the idea stupid. He did
make a valid point though, that *if* re-antifouling is the only
reason for spending the winter ashore, which as a rule is quite a bit
more expensive than spending the winter afloat, then your plan is a
false economy, but of course it rarely is the only reason.


I did not see the post you refer to (no accident), but an annual haul is our
present mode. This has not always been the case, but it's the current MO.

Sharing your experiences is appreciated, but you do yourself no favour
by exaggerating the benefit. The fact is that by thinning to 75% you
only save a quarter of the price, not half. However, if you would
like to experiment to see what happens when you thin to 50%, I'm sure
your results will be awaited with interest.


I don't recall quantifying the benefit to any degree. I merely stated that
there _is_ an economic benefit. I find that of interest.

I think you're right that most people slap on more of the stuff than
is really necessary to last a six-month season, so it makes sense to
try to reduce the amount applied ...


I never made such a claim although others responding to this thread may have
done so.

On the other hand, if you winter
afloat occasionally, you will save more money even if you have to use
3 times as much paint because it has to last 18 months.


That is not always the case though it was the case for me in the past when I
did winter afloat. It happens that the boat yard where I winter actually
charges about the same for dry or wet storage. When one factors in a quick
haul in the spring for checking things (such as seacocks, etc.) the
economics are reversed.

Wilbur's suggestion ... is absurd.


Not having seen this post, I am unable to judge. Regards.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare




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"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
Which is it - PropSpeed or Prop Shield


Speed....

Two part application after 80-grit roughing. First is an etcher to provide
the base, the top being the slippery stuff. Basically yellow in
appearance...

L8R

Skip and crew

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand
(Richard Bach)


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