Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only
slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common.

That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are
caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables,
blocks or quadrant.

Yes - but cable issues are a different class of failure. Every boat
should have some form of emergency tiller to make do when there is some
type of linkage issue. No one should be stranded mid-ocean because of a
quadrant or cable problem.

So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post
separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. I wonder
what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:13:09 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a
stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the
rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line
to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as
shown he

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg

Losing the rudder is mostly a concern on long offshore passages. It
does happen. A friend of mine with a 50 something Irwin ketch once
had to be towed 200 miles into Norfolk, VA by the coast guard after
losing the rudder in a way similar to what you describe. I don't see
any reason why your scheme with control lines wouldn't work, and top
side chafing is the least of your concerns at that point. All boats
in the Newport-Bermuda race have to demonstrate a workable emergency
rudder arrangement. Most opt for some combination of spinnaker pole
with a door lashed to it. The pole gets loosely lashed to a
stanchion at the rear of the boat and some lucky individual gets to
manhandle the free end like a giant tiller.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:13:09 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that
only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered
seaworthy

Do you think if I painted the [outboard] rudders on my sister's scow
yellow it would become seaworthy?

Casady

"Richard Casady" wrote

Do you think if I painted the [outboard] rudders on my sister's scow
yellow it would become seaworthy?


"Seaworthy" always must be evaluated in terms of intended route and service.
Based on prior service record of yellow outboard rudders in this newsgroup,
your sister's boat after such modification should be prefectly adequate for
sitting on a mooring for years without going anywhere while she pesters and
blusters about being the worlds greatest sailor.

--
Roger Long

On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller,
the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the
vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off
of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin
inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter.

I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a
stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the
rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line
to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as
shown he

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg

Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the
winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing.

I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as
large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill
it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be
lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though
and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for
the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone.

If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that
only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered
seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before
discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience
so I'll just have to make do.

--
Roger Long

I like my chinese rudders.
you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one.

do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some
system connected to it?
Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder
actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a
tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth
shaking.

"Two meter troll" wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller,
the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with
the
vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking
off
of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just
spin
inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all
winter.

I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching
a
stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the
rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a
line
to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged
as
shown he

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg

Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the
winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing.

I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as
large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and
pre-drill
it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be
lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple
though
and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place
for
the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone.

If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out
that
only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be
considered
seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before
discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and
experience
so I'll just have to make do.

--
Roger Long

I like my chinese rudders.
you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one.

do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some
system connected to it?
Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder
actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a
tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth
shaking.


I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was
hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time
with corrosion.

I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but
never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and
lubricate.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
I saw a rudder that was filled with water, watched it drain when she was
hauled, but it didn't fail. I suppose getting hit would do it or over time
with corrosion.

I regularly inspect the cables controlled by the quadrant on my boat, but
never find anything. I'm going to pull the binnacle at some point and
lubricate.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

A water-filled rudder? That's a new one on me. I saw an ad once for a
water-filled anchor that was just the cat's pajamas. Empty it out, it's
really light. Fill it up, it gets really heavy. Fill it with fresh water and
you have an extra supply of drinking water to boot.

Two meter troll wrote:
....
do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some
system connected to it?
Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder
actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a
tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth
shaking.

My first keel boat was a Paceship Eastwind, similar to a Cape Dory 25.
The rudder was cored, and the coring had rotted a bit, allowing the
paddles that were welded to the post to wiggle. We opened it up and
filled it with epoxy. It wasn't close to failure, but I could imagine
the paddles breaking through the side of the rudder. I could also
imagine the weld failing if there was a hidden weakness.

My hunch has always been that the most common failure was a bent or
broken post, because they are often undersized on cheaply built boats.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:28:56 -0800 (PST), Two meter troll
wrote:

On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller,
the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the
vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off
of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin
inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter.

I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a
stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the
rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line
to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as
shown he

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg

Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the
winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing.

I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as
large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill
it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be
lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though
and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for
the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone.

If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that
only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered
seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before
discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience
so I'll just have to make do.

--
Roger Long

I like my chinese rudders.
you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one.

do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some
system connected to it?
Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder
actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a
tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth
shaking.


A friend was delivering a 40-some foot Warram cat from Phuket to
Greece a couple of years ago and lost both rudders in a storm. Sailed
that last bit of the trip with a hatch cover nailed to the wooden boom
and he sail loose footed.

As Warram designed the boat the rudders are tied on with double braid
rope and apparently the fastenings came loose.

Anyway, when he got back he had a discussion with the builder about
rudder fastenings and they are no longer on speaking terms...

So yes, rudders have been known to fall off.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

In article , Roger Long wrote:
Here's someting on topic:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe...cue/index.html

Shame it's not a better story. OK, so it's not the worst, but it could
be better.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.