"Richard Casady" wrote

Do you think if I painted the [outboard] rudders on my sister's scow
yellow it would become seaworthy?


"Seaworthy" always must be evaluated in terms of intended route and service.
Based on prior service record of yellow outboard rudders in this newsgroup,
your sister's boat after such modification should be prefectly adequate for
sitting on a mooring for years without going anywhere while she pesters and
blusters about being the worlds greatest sailor.

--
Roger Long

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only
slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common.

That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are
caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables,
blocks or quadrant.

Failures in the cables , blocks or quadrant are what your emergency tiller
is for and should not present an insuperable problem.
Internal structural failures in the rudder are another story and I have
often wondered why the simple expedient of putting a hole through the top
after part of the rudder is not normal practise as this would enable you to
easily rig a couple of control lines as has been mentioned here before if
that kind of failure occurred.
I hate the idea of a rudder that fills with water because there is no way
of checking what corrosion etc. is taking place inside.

Some emergency tillers leave a lot to be desired. When I got my boat I found
that the rudder head was visible in the cockpit and had a hole into which
about 18" of pipe could be fitted. That was the emergency tiller and it
could not be any longer since it would foul the steering wheel pedestal. I
have a boat that is quick on the helm and has a balanced spade rudder so in
emergency this would only allow me to crouch down in the cockpit steering
with this short tiller while someone else told me where we were going. Not
helpful while single handing.
I have modified this tiller by attaching another arm at right angles to it
so now I can sit up in the cockpit and steer with it while looking where I
am going. The tiller the boat came with was pretty useless for all practical
purposes, yet it appeared to meet the requirements that the boat should have
an emergency tiller and the surveyor noted it as such without commenting on
its uselessness.

wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 2:26 am, katy wrote:
Weather still not good enough here (high winds and deep draft plus
shallow water equals bad boo)
It's beginning to loo like ASAin here...

The wind has been howling here all day, I so wanted to have a good
eekend so I could go!


Where is here?

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:04:59 -0500, jeff wrote:

Catamarans of course have an issue since the keels are usually only
slightly deeper than the rudders, so strikes are common.

That can happen of course, but most monohull steering failures are
caused by structural issues internal to the rudder or in the cables,
blocks or quadrant.

Yes - but cable issues are a different class of failure. Every boat
should have some form of emergency tiller to make do when there is some
type of linkage issue. No one should be stranded mid-ocean because of a
quadrant or cable problem.

So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post
separating inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. I wonder
what the frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders.

"jeff" wrote in message
...
snipped some

So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating
inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. I wonder what the
frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders.


Why not ask Joe. He's the expert on rudder failure. Bwahahhahahahah. Who
would have thought a poorly designed rudder would sink a steel boat?

Wilbur Hubbard

On Feb 23, 12:55*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"jeff" wrote in message

...
snipped some

So this leaves several failure modes - rudder falling off, post separating
inside rudder, and post bending and jamming rudder. *I wonder what the
frequency of failure is for the various types of rudders.

Why not ask Joe. He's the expert on rudder failure. Bwahahhahahahah. Who
would have thought a poorly designed rudder would sink a steel boat?

Wilbur Hubbard

Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect..

I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall.

First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted:
http://www.ship564.org/boats.html
They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and
hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt.
Cable broke

One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat.
Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing
a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the
port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel
barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed
that by replacing the hose.

Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged
filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units.

And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this :
http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg
Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum
on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and
failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the
worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the
hull.

I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost.

How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had
fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny
as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included)

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...

Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect..

I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall.

First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted:
http://www.ship564.org/boats.html


Hey, it's the "Skipper's" boat from Gilligan's island!


They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and
hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt. Cable broke


Duh! How come you so-called professionals don't do a visual inspection of
systems from time to time. Sounds like you just accept the fact that things
will fail from time to time and never even bother looking for wear and tear.
Cables just don't break all of a sudden. They usually show signs of wear
like fraying, splitting, etc.


One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat.
Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing
a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the
port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel
barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed
that by replacing the hose.


An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Where's the visual
inspection and/or timely replacement schedule? Ignored because of ignorance
and stupidity? Thought so.


Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged
filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units.

Duh! And again, Duh! Filters are supposed to be changed out on a schedule
prior to them clogging.


And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this :
http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg
Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum
on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and
failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the
worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the
hull.


Duh! Again a visual inspection probably would have revealed a cracked weld
prior to catastrophic failure. Where were your eyes? Tie rods have tie rod
ends, right? These should be inspected regularly for wear and tear and
lubrication, right? A one-inch diameter hole or even several one inch
diameter holes certainly could have had rags stuffed into them to stem the
ingress of water to such an extent that bilge pumps should have been able to
handle the chore.
That steel rod could have been removed at the tie rod ends, welded and
re-fitted had the boat a welder which it should have had. It's just dumb to
sail a large steel boat without some sort of welder. Duh.

Joe, I still think you need an attitude adjustment. You seem clueless when
it comes to preventative maintenance and system inspection and repair. Is
this the way so-called professionals operate? A feeling that "**** happens"
with no methods in place to keep **** from happening or at least slowing it
down?


I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost.


If I were your professor I would make you take the classes again. It's
obvious you haven't learned preventive maintenance and having a plan if and
when a failure of some sort occurs in spite of preventive maintenance.

How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had
fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny
as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included)


I've sailed thousands of miles offshore, nearshore, and inland. The worst
failure I've ever had was a broken-in-two boom. Other than magnafluxing the
boom from time to time I don't see any preventative maintenance that would
have eliminated that breakage. Repaired the boom myself and it remains
stronger than new to this very day.

Never had an injured crew. (I don't ship weakling, inexperienced amateurs or
females!)

Never bent a prop. Real sailboats have little need of props anyway.

Never lost steering. Have reliable, balanced spade rudder that will turn 360
degrees with reliable cast aluminum tiller.

Had a couple of little galley fires easily extinguished, and one brandy fire
in the bilge after a bottle burst when the boat was struck by lightning.

Never needed rescue. Never shall because I'll drown like a man before
suffering such an indignity. This attitude will go a long ways towards
keeping me from ever needing rescue.

Never had a wreck. I know and follow the rules of the road.

Made money as a captain but as a side-job and part time and on my terms.
So-called professional captains around here who work the headboats, dive
boats etc. make 100 dollars a day with NO benefits. Only an idiot works for
peanuts like that.



Wilbur Hubbard

In article , Roger Long wrote:
Here's someting on topic:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe...cue/index.html

Shame it's not a better story. OK, so it's not the worst, but it could
be better.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

On Feb 23, 4:13 am, "Roger Long" wrote:
My rudder quadrant is pretty massive. In addition to an emergency tiller,
the wind vane control lines attach to the quadrant so I can steer with the
vane gear or by pulling on the lines. My concern is the stock breaking off
of the steel plate inside the rudder at the weld and starting to just spin
inside the rudder. Like most, mine fills with water and drains all winter.

I'm thinking of adapting an idea from the old sailing ships an attaching a
stout ring through bolted with straps to the rear upper corner of the
rudder. This is just above the waterline on my boat. I can either run a line
to this while standing on the boarding ladder or keep a light line rigged as
shown he

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/images/Esteerline.jpg

Lines taken either side to blocks on the toe rail holes and then to the
winches should give me some control at the cost of some topside chafing.

I also have a very bunk bin board over my holding tank that is nearly as
large as my rudder. I plan to obtain a suitable piece of pipe and pre-drill
it for a tiller and to attach the pre-drilled bunk board to. This can be
lashed to the wind vane tower. The ring on the rudder idea is simple though
and applicable to many boats. If I can't find a suitable storage place for
the stock long enough for plan A, I may just go with it alone.

If Cecil isn't too busy packing, he should be along soon to point out that
only boats with outboard rudders that are painted yellow can be considered
seaworthy. However, I bought this boat and got stuck with it before
discovering this group and having the benifit of his wisdom and experience
so I'll just have to make do.

--
Roger Long

I like my chinese rudders.
you lift them out of the way and its no problem building a new one.

do folks actually have the rudder it self fail or is it normally some
system connected to it?
Ive had the cables or chains or hydro fail. but never had a rudder
actually fail. most times I had a mechanical back up system or a
tiller so it might have been a little inconvenient but not earth
shaking.

On Feb 23, 3:32*pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...

Cecil,greg,wilbur, neal, ect..ect..

I've had a dozen or so failures I can recall.
First in diego garcia on this boat before it was converted:
http://www.ship564.org/boats.html

Hey, it's the "Skipper's" boat from Gilligan's island!

They ID the boat due to a repair made after loosing steering and
hitting a cement anchor bouy. No one was hurt. Cable broke

Duh! How come you so-called professionals don't do a visual inspection of
systems from time to time. Sounds like you just accept the fact that things
will fail from time to time and never even bother looking for wear and tear.
Cables just don't break all of a sudden. They usually show signs of wear
like fraying, splitting, etc.


We did maintance and inspections all the time. Navy even had PMS
systems for the utility boats.

One on a tug pushing 250 thousand gallons of diesel in a fuel flat.
Was in a meeting situation in the ICW. Luckly it was caused by blowing
a stb hydro hose, and the barge rammed the mud bank, had it been the
port side it would have put the barge if front of a loaded gravel
barge. We were in a 1 whistle agreement passing when it blew. Fixed
that by replacing the hose.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Where's the visual
inspection and/or timely replacement schedule? Ignored because of ignorance
and stupidity? Thought so.




Crew & Supply boats....a dozen times, Pumps mostly, clogged
filters..nothing serious, most boats had redundant units.

Duh! And again, Duh! Filters are supposed to be changed out on a schedule
prior to them clogging.

And RedCloud. It had a worm gear unit like this :
http://www.2carpros.com/how_does_it_...g_gear_box.jpg
Just much more beefy. On the output shaft was a fulcrum to a fulcrum
on the rudder shaft top. The tie rod between them was 1" steel rod and
failed were the fulcrum attached to the rod on the output shaft of the
worm gear. Without stops the rod after sheering went through the
hull.

Duh! Again a visual inspection probably would have revealed a cracked weld
prior to catastrophic failure.

You would think. Infact I did so many visual inspection of the
steering gear before it failed it ****ed off a crew member tying to
sleep in the aft cabin. The steering did not feel right

Where were your eyes? Tie rods have tie rod
ends, right?

Not this one. The rod had a bolt thru it into the fulcrum end. The
bolt hole was drilled through the rod then scabbed over top and bottom
not allowing for inspection of the weakening rod where the hole was
drilled

These should be inspected regularly for wear and tear and
lubrication, right? *A one-inch diameter hole or even several one inch
diameter holes certainly could have had rags stuffed into them to stem the
ingress of water to such an extent that bilge pumps should have been able to
handle the chore.

Except it was next to a T bar stringer, dis-alowing the use of bungs.
I slowed it a bit with my bros silk shirts.

That steel rod could have been removed at the tie rod ends, welded and
re-fitted had the boat a welder which it should have had.

Could have used the emergency tiller bar too that fit in the rudder
post.

It's just dumb to
sail a large steel boat without some sort of welder. Duh.

Joe, I still think you need an attitude adjustment. You seem clueless when
it comes to preventative maintenance and system inspection and repair. Is
this the way so-called professionals operate? A feeling that "**** happens"
with no methods in place to keep **** from happening or at least slowing it
down?

I guess I could be called an expert now, I paid the tuition cost.

If I were your professor I would make you take the classes again. It's
obvious you haven't learned preventive maintenance and having a plan if and
when a failure of some sort occurs in spite of preventive maintenance.

Preventve maintaince works 99% of the time. Im talking about the other
1%

Let me explain so that you might understand. Lets take your rusty toy
ota.

If yo drive it a half million miles no matter how well you maintain
it, and inspect it,parts will fail.
Even new parts can fail. Sometimes when a filter cloggs it might clog
again sooner than any planned maintance.

If you actually move a boat, not just pretending you would understand
this.

As the old saying goes, Neal boat is safe & never breaks in Harbor,
but thats not what boats were buildt for...or something like that.


How about you? Have many times have you lost steering, bent props, had
fires, had injured crew, rescued anyone, been in a wreck, made a penny
as a Captain? (imaginary times and fairy tales not included)

I've sailed thousands of miles offshore, *nearshore, and inland. The worst
failure I've ever had was a broken-in-two boom. Other than magnafluxing the
boom from time to time I don't see any preventative maintenance that would
have eliminated that breakage. Repaired the boom myself and it remains
stronger than new to this very day.

Never had an injured crew. (I don't ship weakling, inexperienced amateurs or
females!)

You do not ship anything, it clearly shows in your in-experience.


Never bent a prop. Real sailboats have little need of props anyway.

Never lost steering. Have reliable, balanced spade rudder that will turn 360
degrees with reliable cast aluminum tiller.

Well thats good Wilbur. If you only have commanded one simple little
day sailor the chances of having any problems is reduced by many
folds. Limited exposure leads to limited risks. It is crystal clear
you are the master at limiting you maritine exposure.


Had a couple of little galley fires easily extinguished, and one brandy fire
in the bilge after a bottle burst when the boat was struck by lightning.

Galley fires? WTF you a drunk cook or something?
I;m talking about real fires, like fuel spraying on a hot turbo,
clutches burning, breaker box ect... Not some sissyfied suzy
homemakers fires.


Never needed rescue. Never shall because I'll drown like a man before
suffering such an indignity. This attitude will go a long ways towards
keeping me from ever needing rescue.

Well your attitude seems to have kept you moored silly for the last 15
plus years. Keep it up and you will safe.

Never had a wreck. I know and follow the rules of the road.

Made money as a captain but as a side-job and part time and on my terms.
So-called professional captains around here who work the headboats, dive
boats etc. make 100 dollars a day with NO benefits. Only an idiot works for
peanuts like that.

Only an idiot would be happy with a 25 gt masters that would restrict
you to such a limited choice of vessels to command.

Wilbur Hubbard

Joe