On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:19:16 -0700, "Jim Donohue"
wrote:

In deed you can. You can also find them at ham swap meets next to the old
boat anchor radios and at marine swap meets next to the 8 track stereos.

The point was not that they are unobtainable...but that the product has been
entirely abandoned by the leading retailers.

Not entirely.
http://www.furuno.com/Furuno/Rooms/D...ED834C6A%5D%5D

But close. Which is what you'd expect for a system who's future was
seriously in doubt until recent interest in keeping it alive. The
current momentum to extend the life of LORAN only started in 2001.

The thought that LORAN has some role as a backup to GPS in a military
jamming situation is pretty close to ludicrous. You really think the
electronic warfare guys are not going toimpact long wave? You think LORAN
is resistive of jamming?

I guess you don't know very much about RF jamming then. If so, you'd
know it's MUCH easier to effectively jam a wide area if you only have to
jam one frequency with extremely weak signals on it than a wide spectrum
of RF with much stronger signals. So yes, LORAN is much more resistive
of jamming than GPS. Orders of magnitude more resistive of jamming.

Steve

Steven Shelikoff wrote:
Where's Jim Donahue when ya need him?

http://www.defensedaily.com/cgi/av/s...ontimeon.h tm

Steve

About 4 years ago, my industry (Marine) "sources" started saying that we
should not count Loran out, and that plans were beginning to be
formulated to update/upgrade the system.
To be honest, my reaction, though positive, was not too optimistic.
It's nice to read that this is still being considered, though if it does
come to pass, I would also hope that they figure out how to increase
range and coverage.
Only a fool goes offshore/deepsea for extended voyages, with one single
navigation method available ..... and six GPS receivers does not mean
you have six methods, only that you have 5 backups for one method, maybe.

otn

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:00:28 GMT, otnmbrd wrote:



Steven Shelikoff wrote:
Where's Jim Donahue when ya need him?

http://www.defensedaily.com/cgi/av/s...ontimeon.h tm

Steve

About 4 years ago, my industry (Marine) "sources" started saying that we
should not count Loran out, and that plans were beginning to be
formulated to update/upgrade the system.
To be honest, my reaction, though positive, was not too optimistic.
It's nice to read that this is still being considered, though if it does
come to pass, I would also hope that they figure out how to increase
range and coverage.

I don't think there are plans to increase the range and coverage to
include, for instance, mid ocean. The plans are to greatly increase the
accuracy and to make LORAN a backup stratum 1 time source. That's good
for several industries, like cellphones, broadcasters, etc.

As long as it covers the coast out to around a few hundred miles, that's
good enough for 99.999% of boaters. You usually don't need ot know
*exactly* where you are when you're hundreds of miles from anywhere.


Only a fool goes offshore/deepsea for extended voyages, with one single
navigation method available ..... and six GPS receivers does not mean
you have six methods, only that you have 5 backups for one method, maybe.

Yup.

Steve

Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:00:28 GMT, otnmbrd wrote:



Steven Shelikoff wrote:

Where's Jim Donahue when ya need him?

http://www.defensedaily.com/cgi/av/s...ontimeon.h tm

Steve

About 4 years ago, my industry (Marine) "sources" started saying that we
should not count Loran out, and that plans were beginning to be
formulated to update/upgrade the system.
To be honest, my reaction, though positive, was not too optimistic.
It's nice to read that this is still being considered, though if it does
come to pass, I would also hope that they figure out how to increase
range and coverage.


I don't think there are plans to increase the range and coverage to
include, for instance, mid ocean. The plans are to greatly increase the
accuracy and to make LORAN a backup stratum 1 time source. That's good
for several industries, like cellphones, broadcasters, etc.

As long as it covers the coast out to around a few hundred miles, that's
good enough for 99.999% of boaters. You usually don't need ot know
*exactly* where you are when you're hundreds of miles from anywhere.

I got the sense (sources) that they were at least contemplating some
increased coverage but most mid-oceans would still not apply.
This makes Loran only a limited backup/second source system, as G
there are many more areas to the world, than just the US, that could
benefit.

otn

"Jim Donohue" writes:

The thought that LORAN has some role as a backup to GPS in a military
jamming situation is pretty close to ludicrous. You really think the
electronic warfare guys are not going toimpact long wave?

Yes, that's what I think. GPS is useful in a military situation because
provides extremely high accuracy. Thus selective availability -- the
ability to remove that pinpoint accuracy on demand. Loran does not
provide the accuracy of GPS, therefore is cannot serve the same
military role. Thus there is no militarily-related reason to jam
Loran.

You think LORAN
is resistive of jamming?

No. What I think is there is no reason why the military would want
to.

--lyndon

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:00:28 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:

Only a fool goes offshore/deepsea for extended voyages, with one single
navigation method available ..... and six GPS receivers does not mean
you have six methods, only that you have 5 backups for one method, maybe.

Exactly why I carry two GPSes (one for boat, one for Zodiac), a
bulkhead compass, a pelorus (with angles discreetly placed in tape on
coamings), a stopwatch, a depthfinder, current paper charts with
Notices to Mariners, cruising guides as needed and am looking for an
old sextant to teach myself celestial.

And I cruise the Great Lakes G. LORAN is obviously less popular, but
the older guys still have working sets and even RDF isn't
extinct.,,although I have no idea if it works unless you are line of
sight to an airport, say.

Overkill? Maybe, but my pilotage is pretty sharp, and I can do running
fixes, DR and LOPs and ETAs without firing up the GPS, just a few
neurons. Neither night nor fog bother me if I can get a visual fix
occasionally, which will serve us well when we go offshore, as will
learning celestial.

I believe the more familiar and practised one is with a variety of
techniques, the calmer and more pleasurable the sail. Half of "feel"
is just internalized technique and "sea sense" is no exception.

R.

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:00:28 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:
snip
Only a fool goes offshore/deepsea for extended voyages, with one single
navigation method available ..... and six GPS receivers does not mean
you have six methods, only that you have 5 backups for one method, maybe.

ah....but if you're in the middle of nowhere and; even if your backup
GPS is functional, but GPS is down; you're better off staying where
you are...even if you don't know where that is.

Horace Brownbag wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:00:28 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:
snip

Only a fool goes offshore/deepsea for extended voyages, with one single
navigation method available ..... and six GPS receivers does not mean
you have six methods, only that you have 5 backups for one method, maybe.


ah....but if you're in the middle of nowhere and; even if your backup
GPS is functional, but GPS is down; you're better off staying where
you are...even if you don't know where that is.

ah.... but if you have the ability to use other methods, not related to
GPS, there's no need to stay where you are, unless they too are down.

otn

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:38:20 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:



Horace Brownbag wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 05:00:28 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:
snip

Only a fool goes offshore/deepsea for extended voyages, with one single
navigation method available ..... and six GPS receivers does not mean
you have six methods, only that you have 5 backups for one method, maybe.


ah....but if you're in the middle of nowhere and; even if your backup
GPS is functional, but GPS is down; you're better off staying where
you are...even if you don't know where that is.

ah.... but if you have the ability to use other methods, not related to
GPS, there's no need to stay where you are, unless they too are down.

I was in an accelerated nursing program once. Git yer BSN in 1 year;
no sleep; pre-reqs required.

I'm in my, what was an equivalent to 2nd year student, and in the 1-1
debriefing I was doing with my instructor regarding the status of my
patient for the day, I go through the guy's vitals...heart rate and
rthymn, temp., other stuff to show we've read the text, and used our
heads.

She interupts my report to ask a question, as expected, if something
wasn't clear.

"What's 'normal' body temperature?"

"Huh?"...I just didn't get this. I asked for clarification. "What do
you mean...?"

"What is the normal body temperature of an averge person?"

"Really?"

"Yes."

"Really?"...but she gave that look that said she wasn't going to
budge.

This was too much for me.

I said, "I hate to be insulting, but I learned that in elementary
school. I think most people have. I remember it being repeated, and
repeated throughout the grades through high school. I'm in the second
year equivalent of an accelerated program. My classmates and I didn't
'just fall off the turnip truck'."

"If you have to ask me; and I didn't know what the generally
considered human body temp is; at this stage of the game...we've got
some very serious problems with the system that put us here in the
hallway."