On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.

Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,

Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable.

Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable.

Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.

I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is
*all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles
sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There
are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion.
This contention divides members of each religion into denominations,
factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all
agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based
upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes
and look around.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without
clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're
not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can
still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All*
denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.

I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all*
the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in
metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in
each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention
divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you
think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate
themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of
their book then you need to open your eyes and look around.

Stephen


Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of
the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are
atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without
clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're
not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can
still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All*
denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen
T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all*
the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in
metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in
each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention
divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you
think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate
themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of
their book then you need to open your eyes and look around.

Stephen


Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of
the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are
atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.


Bingo.

Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure
those divisions also have their divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies
without clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure
what you're not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with
the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course
there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the
book contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you
can still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know.
*All* denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan,
Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed
changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen
T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is
*all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles
sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There
are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion.
This contention divides members of each religion into denominations,
factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all
agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based
upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes
and look around.

Stephen


Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face
of the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic
are atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.


Bingo.

Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure
those divisions also have their divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

Stephen


I take it all back. I believe in God, but I'm an atheist.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:19:16 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable.

Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.

I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is
*all* the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles
sometimes, in metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There
are passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion.
This contention divides members of each religion into denominations,
factions, etc. If you think that your country contains Muslims that all
agree and don't separate themselves into different denominations based
upon their interpretation of their book then you need to open your eyes
and look around.

Stephen

I can't believe that you are really as stupid as you appear to be. I
have explained, even furnished you with references and at least one
source to start your research, but you persist.

I even suggested that rather then try and convert the uninitiated you
go off and convert the believers but you persist.

So, if you wish to sit in your cozy little world and believe that you
are going to convert any significant portion of the world's Moslems to
the belief that one of the basic tenets of their religion is some how
wrong, because you say so, I suppose that is your business.

Given that the present conflict in the Middle East is at least
partially driven by religious bigotry I am amazed that you do not rush
to the site as, if you are right, you will be able to solve a problem
that seems to have confounded the rest of the world.

By the way, I'd be interested in your statement that there are "are
passages in each book that are widely contested among each religion"
as it applies to Islam. Can you specify what sura you are referring
to?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:45:59 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without
clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're
not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can
still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All*
denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.

I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all*
the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in
metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in
each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention
divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you
think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate
themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of
their book then you need to open your eyes and look around.

Stephen


Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of
the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are
atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.

The point that he fails to understand is that in Islam the belief that
the Koran (Quoran) is literally the word of God is the basic of the
religion. To contest the Koran, or to believe that the "Word" could be
altered, would essentially, be to question that upon which the entire
religion rests.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:54 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without
clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're
not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can
still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All*
denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen
T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all*
the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in
metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in
each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention
divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you
think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate
themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of
their book then you need to open your eyes and look around.

Stephen


Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of
the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are
atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.


Bingo.

Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure
those divisions also have their divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

Stephen


Yes, Stephen, I am aware that there are divisions amount the Faithful
but even you, an Infidel, can read. Stop! Go back and read it again.
Nowhere does it say that this or that group disagrees with the words
in the Koran.

As the most common example:

The two major divisions of Islam are the Sunni's and the Shiaa who
disagree, not about the Koran, but about who the successor to Muhammad
should have been.

Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure
you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf
in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead
before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to
agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a
lack of knowledge of the religion.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:54 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without
clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're
not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can
still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All*
denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen
T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all*
the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in
metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in
each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention
divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you
think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate
themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of
their book then you need to open your eyes and look around.

Stephen

Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of
the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are
atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.

Bingo.

Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure
those divisions also have their divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

Stephen


Yes, Stephen, I am aware that there are divisions amount the Faithful
but even you, an Infidel, can read. Stop! Go back and read it again.
Nowhere does it say that this or that group disagrees with the words
in the Koran.

They disagree about what the words mean, obviously. This is what I have
been saying over and over but apparently you have a blind spot about it
for some reason and refuse to understand.

As the most common example:

The two major divisions of Islam are the Sunni's and the Shiaa who
disagree, not about the Koran, but about who the successor to Muhammad
should have been.

Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure
you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf
in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead
before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to
agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a
lack of knowledge of the religion.
Cheers,

Okay, this stuff is obviously way over your head and it's pointless to
keep trying to help you understand. I never said anyone should change
the words in the book, just that all religions have disagreements about
what the words in their book mean. I gave you a reference that pointed
out more than forty different divisions within Islam, but apparently
this went right over your head. Maybe you are so unfamiliar with
religion that you don't realize why and how these divisions exist. If
you are ever curious, simply go back over what I have said in this
thread and you'll find the explanation.

Stephen

Bruce In Bangkok wrote in
:

Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure
you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf
in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead
before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to
agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a
lack of knowledge of the religion.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)



How can they know anything about Moslems when they are sequestered most of
their lives in Jewish enclaves, brainwashed by the Rabbis in Jewish Schools
and all but ostracized if one of them falls in love with a blonde honey
from Sweden and goes off an marries her?

Noone who lives in a completely closed society like that, and told that
everyone outside that society is evil and it's their DUTY to kill
them....can know anything about anything outside that tiny sphere....EXCEPT
what they read in the HEAVILY FILTERED books?

The most stunning effects I can remember about these people brought up in
the vacuum of their enclaves is an interview Richard Dawkins did for one of
his atheist movies. He met with British Rabbis that were born in England,
raised in England, educated in England and had lived in England their whole
lives. But, you would have never known these rabbis were English people!
They spoke with the Jewish accent of Israel that's spoken in their sealed
little world in London. They don't sound like any Englishmen of any class,
at all! Simply amazing they can be so isolated from British society and
it's easily recognizable accents.....